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Ragekeeper
01-14-2012, 11:26 AM
The title says it, i think it is a very important feature to add to the game.

With this feature you can be able to see how much mana an opponent got quickly and easily, i also helps you make the decision of attacking him or not, faster and it makes you more secure to know this info. This is especially useful in the early game laning where if your lane opponents might have used up all their mana to harras you. Then you might decide to go in for a kill but that is easily determined if they still can use their abilities or not still.

This feature is also so useful in alot of other scenario and you will have use of it throughout the whole game.

Post your opinions/comments/perspectives around this matter.

lmiyagi
01-14-2012, 11:30 AM
You answered yourself.

"Able to see how much mana quickly and easily on an opponent is very important as it can determine if your going to attack him or not."

That's the reason for not having mana bars, you waste time doing it, and time is precious, veeery precious! So, you can risk attack it or not, or waste 1 sec of the battle to see enemie's mana.

Ragekeeper
01-14-2012, 11:37 AM
You answered yourself.

"Able to see how much mana quickly and easily on an opponent is very important as it can determine if your going to attack him or not."

That's the reason for not having mana bars, you waste time doing it, and time is precious, veeery precious! So, you can risk attack it or not, or waste 1 sec of the battle to see enemie's mana.

It was an example of a scenario. Edited the text now to make it more clear with what i meant.

Capuy
01-14-2012, 11:37 AM
Has been suggested several times already, and guess what: Nothing happened.

It will never get implemented. Don't bother trying.

Fenrir795
01-14-2012, 11:40 AM
+1 Showing the mana bar on top of the hero can be very crucial. For example, you will feel stupid not knowing u were running from a Shadow Shaman because he's gonna shackle you but he doesn't even have mana!

Ragekeeper
01-14-2012, 11:44 AM
Has been suggested several times already, and guess what: Nothing happened.

It will never get implemented. Don't bother trying.

I have been a forumer for games for years, i don't give up as easy. And besides you need to repeat yourself to make yourself more clear and heard since the developers don't always have a super mind or a papper & penn with them when they read the forums. Repeating yourself is neccesary to make a point.

Sixtyfourbit
01-14-2012, 12:23 PM
Papper and Penn, That is all.

Kautzman
01-14-2012, 12:54 PM
We've been over this and I believe this topic is off limits if memory serves:


It will never get implemented. Don't bother trying.

I would honestly not be at all surprised to see it before the game leaves beta. Valve doesn't make garbage decisions like putting APM dumps in the UI.

Ragekeeper
01-15-2012, 02:48 AM
The way i see this is that, this is important data you need to know fast in Dota 2, and what better way is it to see this than showing the manabar ontop of all heroes.

TheWilder
01-15-2012, 04:54 AM
NO

Oh look guise imma gonna play dis Magina, guess wat I need no awarnes whatsoevah so i can just blink in and ulti yo
---
This woul be seriously stupid, mana is really important and it might seem ok in 1v1 / 2v2, think about team fights, it would be OP. Please don't make the game simpler

Also this would make Anti mage OP as i stated above

Fenrir795
01-15-2012, 02:46 PM
lets also turn the health bars off so all of us can be more aware! look guys ima play axe, guess wat i need no awareness whatosevah so i can just blink dagger and ulti yo.
Mana bars are just as important as health bars. if u show the health bar might as well show the mana bar.

cataclysmwar
01-16-2012, 05:05 AM
No, it prevents juke, and guess what? DOTA1 doesn't have this.

MoonElf
01-16-2012, 05:49 AM
DOTA1 doesn't have this.
+1, no need for this, Dota 2 is alrdy easier.

idom86
01-16-2012, 06:23 AM
stop try to make the game more easier go play lol or hon if u cant handle a real game !

tikshow
01-16-2012, 06:27 AM
it was implemented before the international but the teams didn't like it so the devs disabled it

ZShock
01-16-2012, 06:32 AM
I don't like it as prevents so much more stealthy heroes like Gondar or Riki from being efficient. You wouldn't fear a Bounty Hunter with no mana, as no shuriken would come outta his hands, but you'd fear a full mana Gondar, undoubtfully. There are another examples I read in this forum. For example OP Magina. If he was low HP and saw a Puck, knowing how much mana he had would mean an easy kill for him, but not knowing it would mean having to backup. Puck would have a monstrous disadvantage here.

lmiyagi
01-16-2012, 06:36 AM
Mana bars would take off fake casts (fake torrent, for example)
When I saw that in HoN, it was so easy to avoid / predict the enemy's moves...

Berra_la
01-16-2012, 06:58 AM
The same arguments could be made for health bars, even without the new 250 lines (bet all the purists were shitting bricks that day). People are used to health bars and it's only natural that you can always see them. It was a direct buff to all heroes that deals damage (yes, I'm looking at you, everyone) to add the 250 separations, not to mention the obvious Axe.

I got used to seeing mana bars in HoN, I can easily get used to not seeing them again if I have to.
I got used to god awful Dragoon pathing in SC1, this didn't make me a pro player, nor was it good design.



Regarding fake cast in HoN:
There were quite a few spells that actually played their full cast animation when faking, like Forsaken Archers volley. You would have to make a guess if she actually cast it or not had you not seen the mana bar you would have to click on a hero while escaping to dodge a short delay stun. Yeah, guessing is pro.

In my opinion, fake casting should incur some kind of minor penalty to the caster, like a small manacost or short cooldown on the spell used. Now that would add something to think about for both the chaser and the chased. But thats a completely different topic.

ZShock
01-16-2012, 07:04 AM
Health bars have always been in Warcraft. Plus, they were made permanent time later All Stars went out, making the game so much easier. Axe is one thing, but it is not enough. It's not hard to click your enemy and F1 or 1 back at your hero while chasing. Mana is the other hand of the element surprise, if you remove it, then the situations I've described would become obvious. DotA was made under the health bars engine, mana bars have never been there.

"Because of the old engine"... there are things permitted in tournaments, say Dota Keys and everything related to shortcutting your items to make 'em easier to use. Mana bars is not one of them, they are highly banned from every tournament I've seen so far.

Trilles
01-16-2012, 07:05 AM
+1, no need for this, Dota 2 is alrdy easier.

What do you mean by "Dota 2 is alrdy easier"???

You guys have to realise that the mana bar on top of a hero just gives an IDEA of how much mana the hero has. You can't know for sure the exact amout EVER! In HoN where you can see the manabar, we STILL CLICK ON THE ENEMY HERO to see their exact mana sometimes, so we can be sure that he has enough or not to cast a spell or two.

The manabar just gives an idea, wich often is good because if you look quickly to a hero farming and this hero enters the fog, you wont know how much mana he does have, but if you quickly see his manabar, you would notice he has no mana at all and would go for the gank. This improves the game speed if you ask me. Not only because of this specific fact, but because there will be less times where people will stay in doubt of engaging or not in a team fight because they don't know exactly how much mana the enemy team has.

I just think this is another thing Valve should test. We are in beta. Use this time to test this stuff. Add this to the game, see people's feedback, and then continue with this function or not. You can even explain about it's testing on the patch notes, there is just no harm on doing this. It wont break games for sure, and IF people don't like it (and I don't think this will happen), they'll just have to play with it for 1 week maximum, and then you'll do another patch to delete it from the game. Quite ez and simple...

OrangeSky
01-16-2012, 07:14 AM
Enemy mana bars shouldn't be accessible at all, not even by clicking the hero.

Pricop
01-16-2012, 07:37 AM
-1. It's not normal to show enemy mana bars.

Mr.Hankey
01-16-2012, 08:18 AM
-1 manabars should never been shown on enemy, in dota1 that was a cheat. And when ppl say "it just makes the game easier" well cheats makes the game easier as well so why dont add mh ? or just show cds on alla spells?

Lencovic
01-16-2012, 08:23 AM
OP you can't discuss subjects with dota players, you might aswell give up
As for me I don't have a problem whether or not enemy mana bars are shown, it would be easier if they were shown, but having to click is also essential
but I'm sure 99 % of players aren't checking mana on enemy heroes during a teamfight, just sayin'

Ragekeeper
01-16-2012, 01:06 PM
It is indeed really hard to discuss things with Dota extremists.

And i agree on that people don't click around on all enemy heroes checking their mana, and even if they did would they be reactionary to the info they recieved? Would they tell others in their team, seconds before the teamfight kicks off what to do when enemy each got X amount of mana and we should do Y to take advantage of it.

No, you don't, even if you could with voicechat. It is just better in my opinion if all people could see the mana bar and think on what to do for themselves as an immidate response to it. Than making it to complicated with having to click on all of them.



And the guy who said that the teams in The International didn't like being able to see the manabar is mainly not becuase of that they think it is completly bad, but cuase of this...

They are not ready or used to have it there. It's too new for them. That's why you have 2 versions you can decide between when starting a game (in private game), Tournament & Latest, if both teams are used to the latest changes and know everything it changed then you play it, but if your not then you pick the Tournament version. There has been alot of discussion about how the SC2 eSport scene will do when the new expansion gets released as it will take atleast a month or 2 to learn and understand all the new strategies there are in the new units.

All the high ranked Team Players still plays in the Tournament version when they play against eachothers for prizes (and not the latest version).

I bet that sooner or later, mana bar will be shown ontop of ever hero in a game. It's just a matter of time, LoL did it and HoN did it.

LukeWindwalker
01-16-2012, 01:20 PM
Can`t believe that it`s still not in the fucking game after such a long time. I see NOBODY crying that you can exactly tell by hp increments when Axe can use Culling Blade, that you have exact cooldown timers on buffs and spells, as well as fucking channeling bars, yet this shit isn`t in the game cuz some "pros" say it`s imbalanced or some stupid shit.

Cuz let`s face it... maybe 1 percent, if it`s even that much plays the game at a fucking professional level and that`s obviously the majority of gamers.

Let`s rework Tinys Toss again so you can fail with it again, cuz that was so much more pro than it is now and while you`re at it, make the shop harder to use cuz that`s a clear indication of player skill.

Half-Minute Man
01-16-2012, 01:21 PM
I just take in account what spells they used and what items they have. I don't care for manabars. It will get awfully easy for AM though.

LukeWindwalker
01-16-2012, 01:27 PM
This whole discussion makes me doubt the common sense of IceFrog and the other developers at Valve who insist to hold on to a 2001 interface.

Let me ask you this:

Why the hell you guys don`t all walk by foot instead of using a bike or a car? I mean it takes so much more skill running behind a bus rather than taking it.

Tomcat
01-16-2012, 02:57 PM
Not having mana bars just gives you a simple choice: will you click the hero to check his mana or will you rush into him hoping he doesn't have enough for his spells? Adding mana bars would be quite a big nerf to mana dependent heroes. Imagine you walk into an enigma in the woods, with mana bars you would know if he has mana for his spells immediately, without mana bars you either have to click on the hero and check his mana, risk it and rush into him, or there is another option: get wards - see him before he can see you. This gives even more importance to wards because they give you enough time to check the enemies mana and set something up without any unnecessary risks. I say don't add mana bars for enemy heroes, if you want to check the enemies mana in advance, use wards and scouting skills.

idom86
01-16-2012, 06:10 PM
-1 to this suggestion
maybe some ppl here should just watch the game, a bot is playing for them

Just face it, Dota is not, and its not going to be a casual game...
There are easier copys of dota like LoL.
If u dont feel skilled enough, or u just dont like games which are played on a professional level -------> DONT PLAY EM!
But dont ruin Game's with this shitty attitude "Im no pro so I want this game to be as easy as possible for me"

Ragekeeper
01-17-2012, 12:22 AM
-1 to this suggestion
maybe some ppl here should just watch the game, a bot is playing for them

Just face it, Dota is not, and its not going to be a casual game...
There are easier copys of dota like LoL.
If u dont feel skilled enough, or u just dont like games which are played on a professional level -------> DONT PLAY EM!
But dont ruin Game's with this shitty attitude "Im no pro so I want this game to be as easy as possible for me"

This is not a question of wether you are good&worthy enough to play Dota or not, this is a discussion of what to do, to evolve the game in a succesive manner. And here, we are talking about the mana bars.


It is indeed really hard to discuss things with Dota extremists.

Clicking on heroes to see what their mana is not something that is pro or not, everyone does it. The big thing that makes you pro is what you do in response to recieving that information.

gr!mun
01-17-2012, 12:44 AM
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=9856

mk07ki
01-17-2012, 12:47 AM
-1 to this suggestion
maybe some ppl here should just watch the game, a bot is playing for them

Just face it, Dota is not, and its not going to be a casual game...
There are easier copys of dota like LoL.
If u dont feel skilled enough, or u just dont like games which are played on a professional level -------> DONT PLAY EM!
But dont ruin Game's with this shitty attitude "Im no pro so I want this game to be as easy as possible for me"
I love people like you, you pretend that it's some kind of deep mechanic that takes insane amount of skill while ignoring the fact that the game has autocast for certain abilities which is essentially a bot doing things for you. What about quick and sticky buy, right click deny, using courier with just 1 button, option to disable autoattack and range indicator for abilities? Did it make the game casual? Oh right, you're just biased.

Ragekeeper
01-17-2012, 12:48 AM
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=9856

Woah, specific list of things edited yesterday.

bkt
01-17-2012, 07:19 AM
what a fuckin stupid idea...

murlou
01-17-2012, 08:02 AM
Haven't they tried this already and the PROs didn't like it? Well, then that's all about it, I guess.

Games are balanced for high level play, for obvious reason I don't need to say. (you can read a point of view I share here if you want http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=100136).

If you guys could read more and whine less, we wouldn't be having this discussion over and over again about mana bars and other silly mechanics.

Instant
01-17-2012, 01:52 PM
NO ! Dont make an manabar ! NO !

Play lol if u want to play a 12 year old game...!!!!!!!!

OrangeSky
01-17-2012, 03:33 PM
You shouldn't be able to see mana bars not even by clicking the hero. Are you able to know whether enemy skills are on cooldown or not? Why should you know when he has mana to cast a spell?

ZShock
01-17-2012, 03:37 PM
I'm not okay not knowing my enemy's mana, not even clicking, though! The whole game would be turtling or spell nuking!

MajinCilos
01-17-2012, 03:50 PM
I'm all for showing the mana bars on enemies. +1

If you're not going to show mana, why not get rid of their health bars too. You can base your determination of how weak they are by seeing if their animation is wounded.

slowreflex
01-17-2012, 03:54 PM
I'd be a bit worried that this could unfairly hinder those heroes that rely on spells to do the majority of their damage versus those that rely on their auto-attacks to do the majority of damage. It is very important for those squishy intelligence heroes to be able to threaten a nuke, otherwise if people see them with a low mana bar they will just start pounding on them with no concern for retalliation. However, if you insist on leaving the mana display in the hero display, then you should add a mana bar above heroes.

flick1111
01-17-2012, 03:57 PM
I'm all for showing the mana bars on enemies. +1

If you're not going to show mana, why not get rid of their health bars too. You can base your determination of how weak they are by seeing if their animation is wounded.
DOTA is all about mana not hp. If enemies cant see your mana you can mind game them, same goes with magic stick. Seeing opponents mana would make play alot easier and much more predictable. BTW its never gonna be implemented, stop posting this threads

OrangeSky
01-17-2012, 04:56 PM
I'm all for showing the mana bars on enemies. +1

If you're not going to show mana, why not get rid of their health bars too. You can base your determination of how weak they are by seeing if their animation is wounded.

Uh? If you are going to use this argument, let's display mana bars along with cooldown bars then... or, at least, allow us to see enemy skill cds on enemy HUD.

Kautzman
01-17-2012, 08:53 PM
DOTA is all about mana not hp. If enemies cant see your mana you can mind game them, same goes with magic stick. Seeing opponents mana would make play alot easier and much more predictable. BTW its never gonna be implemented, stop posting this threads

You do know that opponent mana is view-able, yes? Pretty much every argument in this thread against overhead mana bars likes to pretend that you can't actually see opponent mana, but that information is available. Now, if opponent mana was completely hidden, then a lot of these arguments would apply ('It would be harder to gank'. 'You don't know if you'll live in scenario X'), but the fact of the matter is that retrieving that information is simply an APM Dump. The other half of the arguments throws out some really abstract crap, like, "It makes the game easier and more predictable", but no one puts any weight behind that statement because that's as specific as they get, but trying to actually nail down some specifics of this issue just draws them closer to the land of 'it's just an APM dump' or we tend to come to the realization that the only reason a lot of people support no overhead mana bars is because 'that's the way it always was'.

You can't have your cake and eat it here. If you are going to say, "It makes the game easier", you need to explain how, or at least provide an example. If it makes the game more predictable, you need to explain how, or at least provide an example.


Uh? If you are going to use this argument, let's display mana bars along with cooldown bars then... or, at least, allow us to see enemy skill cds on enemy HUD.

Actually, no. Cooldowns and Enemy Mana Bars are unrelated. Displaying enemy cooldowns would fall under the umbrella of 'gameplay issues', as it is currently not something that exists at the UI level. Displaying Enemy Mana Bars however, is a UI issue as that information is already available, just questionably located. To make a comparison against mana bars, you would need to choose something that exists on the UI level to compare it to. In this case, comparing it to overhead HP is actually valid.

Mr.Hankey
01-17-2012, 10:57 PM
Actually, no. Cooldowns and Enemy Mana Bars are unrelated. Displaying enemy cooldowns would fall under the umbrella of 'gameplay issues', as it is currently not something that exists at the UI level. Displaying Enemy Mana Bars however, is a UI issue as that information is already available, just questionably located. To make a comparison against mana bars, you would need to choose something that exists on the UI level to compare it to. In this case, comparing it to overhead HP is actually valid.

Coldownn information is availble too cuse you know all the coldowns so you can just start to cunt your self but instead lets make cd bars so its easier?
NO to mana bars no to cd bars (ofc)

Diabolic
01-17-2012, 11:20 PM
Coldownn information is availble too cuse you know all the coldowns so you can just start to cunt your self but instead lets make cd bars so its easier?
NO to mana bars no to cd bars (ofc)What? So you say you have perfect awareness about what is the "1 second time span" and you can memorize all the spell cooldowns of all units regularly even if it's a long cooldown ultimate? OMG YOU'RE GODLIKE, BEYOND GODLIKE, HOLY SHIT, PENTA-KILL!

Cooldowns are not readily available... And noone... I mean noone can memorize all the ability cooldowns of all units and your argument is failed in so many ways.

MoonElf
01-17-2012, 11:20 PM
but if you quickly see his manabar, you would notice he has no mana at all and would go for the gank
Go back to HON, i got 6 years of dota experience and trust me, no need for this shit.

As i said, the game is alrdy easier and u didnt noticed yet ? Ofc NOT , u are classic lol/hon player aka. 12 years old kid.

Diabolic
01-17-2012, 11:21 PM
Go back to HON, i got 6 years of dota experience and trust me, no need for this shit.

As i said, the game is alrdy easier and u didnt noticed yet ? Ofc, u are classic lol/hon player.And to me you are a classic elitist that has no life, what now? Those kind of comments will just only keep the 10 year old crappy W3 UI in the game, nothing else.

MoonElf
01-17-2012, 11:23 PM
Mana bar implementation has nothing to do with the W3 UI, now shut up and go play your stupid game ( e.g lol/hon ), dont ruin this.

Conclusion: Seems Dota 2 its to hard for you, switch to tetris mby ?

Diabolic
01-17-2012, 11:28 PM
Mana bar implementation has nothing to do with the W3 UI, now shut up and go play your stupid game ( e.g lol/hon ), dont ruin this game.Trust me I'm playing DotA longer than you and keep your stupid flaming comments to yourself. You are the one who is ruining the game with that crappy elitism.

And for the 1000th time, YES Enemy mana bars are not in the game just because it is not hardcoded to W3. If W3 had the enemy mana bars in the first place noone would be able to say anything against mana bars.

Now, you shut up.

MoonElf
01-17-2012, 11:42 PM
Those kids like you will ruin this game in the near future, hope they will never implement such a crap like this one.

- 1 for this suggestion, Dota players please suport this and dont let them to destroy what the dota comunity has built.

Diabolic
01-17-2012, 11:44 PM
Those kids like you will ruin this game in the near future, hope they will never implement such a crap like this one.You're so adorable when you call me as "kid" while you exaclty no idea about me.

Have fun, it's nice to have ignore feature in this forum.

Kautzman
01-18-2012, 12:13 AM
Mana bar implementation has nothing to do with the W3 UI, now shut up and go play your stupid game ( e.g lol/hon ), dont ruin this.

Conclusion: Seems Dota 2 its to hard for you, switch to tetris mby ?

In unrelated news, 'professional' level tetris is wicked hard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwC544Z37qo.

Edit: Something to take note of: While Tetris is a somewhat simple game on paper, the UI for TGM3 is absolutely sublime. It's brilliant design part of what allows for players to perform this well.


Dota players please suport this and dont let them to destroy what the dota comunity has built.

Pray tell, what exactly did the dota community 'build'?

acubeofcake
01-18-2012, 01:12 AM
oh, maybe u wonna also see enemy cooldowns?
-100

Kautzman
01-18-2012, 01:56 AM
oh, maybe u wonna also see enemy cooldowns?
-100

Maybe you want to read the thread?

Diabolic
01-18-2012, 02:04 AM
Conclusion: Seems Dota 2 its to hard for you, switch to tetris mby ?Conclusion: You're a stupid flamer which I'm not going to give a f*ck about.

rawr
01-18-2012, 02:44 AM
Why should it be implemented? It doesn't improve gameplay at all (atleast for me).It's something that you can do by simply clicking on your enemy.It will also make the game easier and players lazier as hell.

squinte
01-18-2012, 02:59 AM
I don't think this should be implemented and I'm going to tell you why. Mana is the life blood of your abilities. You need mana to use them.
When you look at an enemy, your focus should be their health and you should always assume they have mana.

Think about it in terms of an FPS. Take TF2 for example. The Soldier's rocket launcher can load 4 rockets at a time. He doesn't have a numerical number over his head telling the enemies how many rockets he has in the cache. A good player will know how many rocket's the soldier has fired recently and capitalize when their clip is low or empty.

The same applies in DotA. Pay attention to the opponent. Watch their health and watch what they do. Do they have a magic wand? Do they have mana regeneration items? If they spam a bunch of abilities they will be lower on mana. They will be a little more cautious with positioning if they have to wait for mana regeneration or use an item to replenish their mana. If they use a Mana Potion, hit them with an attack to cancel it, but don't over extend yourself. If they fire back with an ability, their mana will be lower. Capitalize on their low mana.

Visually displaying how much mana the opponent has takes some of the competitiveness out of the game. Look at LoL. You can see the opponent's mana (edit: over their head) and some people just stand back until the enemy makes too many casts on the creeps and then capitalizes. Or they'll just happen upon a player with low mana and not think twice about rushing in for an attack. It could be an ambush. If it isn't a trap and they get the kill, they didn't get it because they're good or because they caught the player out of position. They got the kill because they saw that the other player had no way of defending themselves. IMHO, It promotes bad gameplay.

mk07ki
01-18-2012, 03:06 AM
I don't think this should be implemented and I'm going to tell you why. Mana is the life blood of your abilities. You need mana to use them.
When you look at an enemy, your focus should be their health and you should always assume they have mana.

Think about it in terms of an FPS. Take TF2 for example. The Soldier's rocket launcher can load 4 rockets at a time. He doesn't have a numerical number over his head telling the enemies how many rockets he has in the cache. A good player will know how many rocket's the soldier has fired recently and capitalize when their clip is low or empty.

The same applies in DotA. Pay attention to the opponent. Watch their health and watch what they do. Do they have a magic wand? Do they have mana regeneration items? If they spam a bunch of abilities they will be lower on mana. They will be a little more cautious with positioning if they have to wait for mana regeneration or use an item to replenish their mana. If they use a Mana Potion, hit them with an attack to cancel it, but don't over extend yourself. If they fire back with an ability, their mana will be lower. Capitalize on their low mana.

Visually displaying how much mana the opponent has takes some of the competitiveness out of the game. Look at LoL. You can see the opponent's mana and some people just stand back until the enemy makes too many casts on the creeps and then capitalizes. Or they'll just happen upon a player with low mana and not think twice about rushing in for an attack. It could be an ambush. If it isn't a trap and they get the kill, they didn't get it because they're good or because they caught the player out of position. They got the kill because they saw that the other player had no way of defending themselves. IMHO, It promotes bad gameplay.
You missed one very important thing, you can see the exact amount of mana enemies have.

squinte
01-18-2012, 03:22 AM
Yes, this is ONLY IF you click on them. This is part of the gameplay and it is an acquired skill to find out how much mana they have and what items they're using. It shouldn't just be on display. Players are prone to make rather rash decisions when all the enemies information is shown to them all the time. Why not just have a box underneath the health bar so you know when if their ult is up? Or how about we request an arrow that points to where the enemy sentry wards are?

You need to consider more than just mana when you're making a gank. Can they defend themselves? Do they have blink dagger? Can they not escape? You have to THINK about your actions before you make them. You can't just rush in because you see their mana bar is low. That's just stupidity and that's what the original poster's reasoning is for wanting a mana bar.

mk07ki
01-18-2012, 03:41 AM
Yes, this is ONLY IF you click on them. This is part of the gameplay and it is an acquired skill to find out how much mana they have and what items they're using. It shouldn't just be on display. Players are prone to make rather rash decisions when all the enemies information is shown to them all the time. Why not just have a box underneath the health bar so you know when if their ult is up? Or how about we request an arrow that points to where the enemy sentry wards are?

You need to consider more than just mana when you're making a gank. Can they defend themselves? Do they have blink dagger? Can they not escape? You have to THINK about your actions before you make them. You can't just rush in because you see their mana bar is low. That's just stupidity and that's what the original poster's reasoning is for wanting a mana bar.
I don't think that it takes to skill to click on a hero, you rarely find yourself in a situation where you can't do it. As for the rest of your post, bad players are bad not because they can't check mana, they're bad because of the decisions they make. The mana bars are not necessary, but so are the a lot of things in our life. It's not about making the game easier, it's about making the game less tedious.
Not sure if it was mention here yet, but with the recent changes in 6.73, IceFrog showed us that he wants to make the game a little faster and more focused on action (courier, gold and respawn with full mana changes), the addition of mana bars for enemy heroes would do exactly that.

squinte
01-18-2012, 03:55 AM
I don't think that it takes to skill to click on a hero, you rarely find yourself in a situation where you can't do it. As for the rest of your post, bad players are bad not because they can't check mana, they're bad because of the decisions they make. The mana bars are not necessary, but so are the a lot of things in our life. It's not about making the game easier, it's about making the game less tedious.
Not sure if it was mention here yet, but with the recent changes in 6.73, IceFrog showed us that he wants to make the game a little faster and more focused on action (courier, gold and respawn with full mana changes), the addition of mana bars for enemy heroes would do exactly that.

Perhaps you are right in that having a mana bar could speed up gameplay. I just think it's a bad idea because your decision making will not be as informed as it would be if you consider the situation before hand, taking everything into account. It's never a good idea to rush hastily into a fight because just one criteria is met (low mana or low hp).

And as you say, bad players are bad because they make bad decisions. I think this type of thing will only promote those bad decisions. Newer players won't even realize they can click on the enemy other than to attack. Now, I'm not suggesting that mana bars would make the game easier. Quite the contrary actually. I think it will make it harder for some people because they will be making bad decisions. Of course, good players will not really be affected by this either way and might even consider shutting it off as there is already enough floating bars in the UI.

beinbliss
01-18-2012, 04:15 AM
if this game was faster then yes, mana bars are welcome.

but now, NO. It will only postpone the games and matches will be 1.5h instead of 50-60min (which is too much anyway...)

mk07ki
01-18-2012, 04:21 AM
Perhaps you are right in that having a mana bar could speed up gameplay. I just think it's a bad idea because your decision making will not be as informed as it would be if you consider the situation before hand, taking everything into account. It's never a good idea to rush hastily into a fight because just one criteria is met (low mana or low hp).

And as you say, bad players are bad because they make bad decisions. I think this type of thing will only promote those bad decisions. Newer players won't even realize they can click on the enemy other than to attack. Now, I'm not suggesting that mana bars would make the game easier. Quite the contrary actually. I think it will make it harder for some people because they will be making bad decisions. Of course, good players will not really be affected by this either way and might even consider shutting it off as there is already enough floating bars in the UI.
While you have a point, I have to disagree. Having more information only promotes poor play for people that are not good to begin with, the ones that don't know what to do with it. The game should not be developer around people like that, and it is Valves job to improve the quality of playerbase via coaching, tutorials, etc. But I still don't think that it would promote anything in this case because items are tied to mana, a hero with Dagger and no mana is just as good as a hero without Dagger.

independent
01-18-2012, 04:25 AM
NO!:mad:

Django
01-18-2012, 04:33 AM
Mana bars for all result in faster gameplay


1) If you are not sure whether to initiate a gank or not due to having not enough information on the enemy hero (some times you can't check, because he runs into fog etc), you rather stay back

2) Having all information available --> quicker decision making --> faster (better) gameplay

One of many reasons for having manabars.

Same issue as concede-option:

Dota oldfags will cry about it once it is implemented, then get used to it and shut up. Everyone else is happy.

Plus, it keeps away potential customers (LoL/HoN players) therefore less profit for Valve if not having them.

AlphaOfUrOmega
01-18-2012, 08:44 AM
Mana bars for all result in faster gameplay

1) If you are not sure whether to initiate a gank or not due to having not enough information on the enemy hero (some times you can't check, because he runs into fog etc), you rather stay back

2) Having all information available --> quicker decision making --> faster (better) gameplay

This much is true, and has proven itself true in HoN/LoL. I prefer faster gameplay, so I have to support manabars.

ZShock
01-18-2012, 09:26 AM
I think every aspect of this thing has been discussed already. OP Magina, no true stealth for invisible heroes. Knowing exactly how much mana your enemies have would ruin many aspects of the game.
One of them, is scaring heroes off your tower with, say, Lich or Earthshaker, while they're chasing your carry. In this case, Shaker really had no mana, but this was enough with his presence to save his ally.
It's all about the surprise factor, hiding in fog and then using bottle, soul ring, magic wand, w/e; anybody would run from Nevermore if he had mana, but if you see his mana pool almost full once again, then you will run away without even thinking about it.
This is something I like a lot about DotA, and wouldn't like to see it fall.
What's next? HP and mana bars on the minimap?

idom86
01-18-2012, 09:28 AM
Mana bars for all result in faster gameplay


Plus, it keeps away potential customers (LoL/HoN players) therefore less profit for Valve if not having them.

but noone here want them...!
there are alrdy enough bad players, no need to get more from the lowskill casual games !

mk07ki
01-18-2012, 09:31 AM
but noone here want them...!
Don't speak for everyone.

OP Magina
So he's OP when the player can check mana? Alright.

squinte
01-18-2012, 10:01 AM
One of them, is scaring heroes off your tower with, say, Lich or Earthshaker, while they're chasing your carry. In this case, Shaker really had no mana, but this was enough with his presence to save his ally.
It's all about the surprise factor, hiding in fog and then using bottle, soul ring, magic wand, w/e; anybody would run from Nevermore if he had mana, but if you see his mana pool almost full once again, then you will run away without even thinking about it.


This is basically what I was getting at earlier. Being able to see the mana bar without clicking on the enemy hero changes the whole game. You were intimidated into retreating because you were hit by fissure. And you retreat because it was a surprise attack. You don't have time to find out how much mana Earthshaker has, because if you mess around you might find yourself waiting to respawn.

Now with a mana bar, that whole situation might be different. Earthshaker throws down fissure, but is low on mana and the opposition sees that immediately without having to click on him. They aren't scared in the slightest. They don't retreat because they can plainly see he is actually putting himself in a vulnerable position and they might even try to capitalize on it.

I'm not saying that clicking on the enemies takes skill. What I meant by "acquired skill" was players who have situational awareness (eg: checking items, health, mana, surrounding team mates, etc..) who know exactly what is going on around them seemingly all the time.

I actually think that adding a mana bar will speed up game play and raise the skill ceiling a bit more. It will be much more difficult for someone to intimidate enemies off their towers. Furthermore, enemies can now readily see your mana, so you have to play way more cautiously. Though they too will have to be aware of the same thing (their own mana).

I don't know though, it begs the real question: How will this truly affect game play? I came in against this idea, but I'm now neutral towards it. I would like it if Valve did some testing on this to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision from there.

AlphaOfUrOmega
01-18-2012, 10:04 AM
One of them, is scaring heroes off your tower with, say, Lich or Earthshaker, while they're chasing your carry. In this case, Shaker really had no mana, but this was enough with his presence to save his ally.

This instance of imperfect information leads to slower, more conservative gameplay as you noted. I personally prefer faster gameplay with more ganks and tower dives, which mana bars helps to promote.


It's all about the surprise factor, hiding in fog and then using bottle, soul ring, magic wand, w/e; anybody would run from Nevermore if he had mana, but if you see his mana pool almost full once again, then you will run away without even thinking about it.

Yes, adding mana bars does allow for mind games, though different from before, exactly as you describe, with mana regeneration items.


What's next? HP and mana bars on the minimap?

This is an example of the 'Slippery Slope' fallacious argument. You can learn more about it here http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#slippery


but noone here want them...!
there are alrdy enough bad players, no need to get more from the lowskill casual games !

You aren't a true DotA fan if you want to isolate the community and prevent the popularization of a game you yourself love. I'm sure you were never, at any point, a lowskill casual player.

ZShock
01-18-2012, 10:13 AM
This instance of imperfect information leads to slower, more conservative gameplay as you noted. I personally prefer faster gameplay with more ganks and tower dives, which mana bars helps to promote.That's just a theory, having visible mana bars will lead to even more conservative gameplay strategies since 1) You know what your enemy's up to and 2) You won't even think of showing yourself with low mana, your vulnerabilities.


Yes, adding mana bars does allow for mind games, though different from before, exactly as you describe, with mana regeneration items.There's no mind game if you can predict what your opponent can do in every moment. Mana bars won't let you bring fear to your opponents with your presence or make 'em feel confident to your will. Give me an example.


This is an example of the 'Slippery Slope' fallacious argument. You can learn more about it here http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#slipperyThanks for the lesson, but if you think about it, it's actually the same concept. Reducing clicks to get the information that is actually there.

mk07ki
01-18-2012, 10:17 AM
That's just a theory, having visible mana bars will lead to even more conservative gameplay strategies since 1) You know what your enemy's up to and 2) You won't even think of showing yourself with low mana, your vulnerabilities.
Sounds like a theory to me.

ZShock
01-18-2012, 10:25 AM
Thing is that I offered some arguments already. It's fear what creates surprise, and surprise what creates mind games in a RTS game. Let pure, pure strategy for -cm ban/pick phases.

mk07ki
01-18-2012, 10:38 AM
Thing is that I offered some arguments already. It's fear what creates surprise, and surprise what creates mind games in a RTS game. Let pure, pure strategy for -cm ban/pick phases.
Surprise against whom, players that can't even check for mana? The problem with all these arguments is that they're mostly based around people that don't check for mana.

ZShock
01-18-2012, 10:48 AM
Players that in a fast-paced situation have no time to check if you have or don't have mana, enemies who are in your tower chasing you, Crixalis, and don't know if you can stun or not. If you had, it would mean a death for them if they came in, if you didn't, then you'd surely die. You cannot know. After checking Crix's mana, out of tower, it's already too late to kill him. Bam! Now imagine this Magina guy was chasing, actually, Traxex, and you appeared just in time to scare him. You could've saved a running ally not at cost of your own life, but by action of your mere presence. In question of less than one second, you saved the life of both.

idom86
01-18-2012, 10:51 AM
This instance of imperfect information leads to slower, more conservative gameplay as you noted. I personally prefer faster gameplay with more ganks and tower dives, which mana bars helps to promote.


You aren't a true DotA fan if you want to isolate the community and prevent the popularization of a game you yourself love. I'm sure you were never, at any point, a lowskill casual player.


ofc I started somewhen too... But i accepted the game and the hard way to learn/play it...
I didnt cry for changes like most ppl here do, which cant mess up with this game.
And no I dont need more popularization if they are a bunch of whiners with no intention to learn and accecpt Dota as difficult as it is.
Those who are really interested in Dota will play it (without manabars and stuff).
The other playser who want a fast and easy game can stay at their Dota clones as long as they want to....

I have no probs with changes as long they are visual and dont change the gameplay..
Dota has grow like hell, and not cause its a casual game everyone can handle in a hour.
I dont get it why people try to ruin this great game with stupid ideas to make the game more and more casual.

slowreflex
01-18-2012, 11:11 AM
Either remove the ability to see enemies mana by clicking on them or add mana bars. The current system doesn't make sense to me. If you can click on a hero and see their mana then you might as well add the bar above their head. Personally, I'd rather not have the bar or ability to see their mana at all. However, if you are leaving the profile mana then you need to add the mana bar.

ZShock
01-18-2012, 11:21 AM
Reflex, this thing you suggest is never going to happen because 1) RTSs have always been like this and 2) The game has been made under a few basic things. One of them, for example, is that you can access the HP and mana that your enemies currently hold, just as you can see their items, attack and stats. I think that removing this factor, would make dota not only lose its essence, but also making it some kind of first person shooter with magic attacks... since when have you been playing dota? If I might ask.

H3ndriX
01-18-2012, 11:22 AM
i dont like it

-1

idom86
01-18-2012, 11:23 AM
Either remove the ability to see enemies mana by clicking on them or add mana bars. The current system doesn't make sense to me. If you can click on a hero and see their mana then you might as well add the bar above their head. Personally, I'd rather not have the bar or ability to see their mana at all. However, if you are leaving the profile mana then you need to add the mana bar.

Totaly nonsense...
U need to get to know some information about ur enemy...
But u dont need to get them presented on a sliver plate...
It takes time to check the others status. And this is an important factor in the game. U dont have always the time to check everything out and decide after what to do best.
Its some exp u get while playing ( what did he cast bevore, what items did he get, which lvl is he etc..)
If u are into this game u'll get an overview about the mana and hp status even without manabars, but to be sure there is the possibility to check it out by clicking.
I've no idea why this doesn't make any sense to u.

slowreflex
01-18-2012, 11:33 AM
Totaly nonsense...
U need to get to know some information about ur enemy...
But u dont need to get them presented on a sliver plate...
It takes time to check the others status. And this is an important factor in the game. U dont have always the time to check everything out and decide after what to do best.
Its some exp u get while playing ( what did he cast bevore, what items did he get, which lvl is he etc..)
If u are into this game u'll get an overview about the mana and hp status even without manabars, but to be sure there is the possibility to check it out by clicking.
I've no idea why this doesn't make any sense to u.

Of course it makes sense to me, I just disagree with your position on the matter. You shouldn't expect everyone to just take your opinion as gospel. There are many different options in this matter and yours isn't necessarily the right one.

MrDeadcruel
01-18-2012, 12:00 PM
-1

Ridicule
01-18-2012, 02:08 PM
Totaly nonsense...
U need to get to know some information about ur enemy...
But u dont need to get them presented on a sliver plate...
It takes time to check the others status. And this is an important factor in the game. U dont have always the time to check everything out and decide after what to do best.
Its some exp u get while playing ( what did he cast bevore, what items did he get, which lvl is he etc..)
If u are into this game u'll get an overview about the mana and hp status even without manabars, but to be sure there is the possibility to check it out by clicking.
I've no idea why this doesn't make any sense to u.

Why would you want to needlessly overcomplicate the game. If the information is still available, why force players to have to go way over the top to find this information out. Hiding this information adds nothing to the game. And as you said it takes time to find this info out. Time that should be spent PLAYING the game. Most of the time I dont even bother looking up their mana anyway because its useless to me. I'll just decide based on my mana and then win the fight. In a fast paced action game like this. Any information that the game could give to you should be given easily. Either just show us the info or don't at all. Dont show items they have, dont show their level. Hell dont even show their health. But that of course would be STUPID!
Even if the mana bar is shown to you, players will still have to judge whether or not to fight based on how much mana a hero has. There will still be a seperation of good players and bad players due to the fact that certain heroes will be able to do more with less mana; and experienced players will and should know who to watch out for. Players will still have to watch out for when heroes use their ult and other abilities as well. High ranking teams will still have to know when to retreat and when to go in based on these things.
All showing the mana bar does is stop hiding information that SHOULD be readily available. In fact it will also force player to watch their use of abilities since over/misuse will be obvious to the opposing players.

Why would you want to put off potential players over someting so trivial as forcing the game to succumb to the limits of vanilla DoTA? Competative play can and still will be intense. And a proper matchmaking system will ensure you fight players who know what they are doing. Don't let the fear of one neb getting lucky and ult'ing in for the win make you hold this game back in 2004. Yes it will make the game slightly easier for newbs; but new blood means new challanges, better feedback, and a better game.

masterbit
01-18-2012, 02:20 PM
NOt agree with this suggestion!!

ZShock
01-18-2012, 03:49 PM
Hi, Ridicule. Let me get this straight. 1) Surprise factor, 2) All related to surprise factor and now 3) To your post:


Why would you want to needlessly overcomplicate the game. If the information is still available, why force players to have to go way over the top to find this information out. Hiding this information adds nothing to the game. And as you said it takes time to find this info out. Time that should be spent PLAYING the game. Most of the time I dont even bother looking up their mana anyway because its useless to me. I'll just decide based on my mana and then win the fight. In a fast paced action game like this.
DotA is not all about action, good sir. DotA's a lot about strategy. For what you're saying, it seems that you could easily go to the enemy tower no matter if the heroes there have stun, disable or the mana to effectively play these factors. Yeah, you sure must be a very good player if 1) You're N'aix or 2) You have BKB. The rest of the game you become the #1 kill because you don't measure for how long the opponent team can put you in DISABLED MODE. Let's suppose that you don't, that what you say actually wasn't what you wanted to say. A bit further, let's say that you chek for this Venge's mana, she's 0, she can't cast stun. You go and chase her. Then, from the jungle, Lion comes out. Does he have mana? Shall I stay or shall I run? Surprise factor.


Even if the mana bar is shown to you, players will still have to judge whether or not to fight based on how much mana a hero has. There will still be a seperation of good players and bad players due to the fact that certain heroes will be able to do more with less mana; and experienced players will and should know who to watch out for. Players will still have to watch out for when heroes use their ult and other abilities as well. High ranking teams will still have to know when to retreat and when to go in based on these things.
Okay, but, surprise factor in very fast-paced situations. Argument = Null. Read my previous post for examples.


All showing the mana bar does is stop hiding information that SHOULD be readily available. In fact it will also force player to watch their use of abilities since over/misuse will be obvious to the opposing players.
So, in breaf, showing the mana bar removes the surprise factor I described above, becoming a turtling game because even in fast-paced situations you know what's coming on and what they can do all the time.


Why would you want to put off potential players over someting so trivial as forcing the game to succumb to the limits of vanilla DoTA? Competative play can and still will be intense. And a proper matchmaking system will ensure you fight players who know what they are doing. Don't let the fear of one neb getting lucky and ult'ing in for the win make you hold this game back in 2004. Yes it will make the game slightly easier for newbs; but new blood means new challanges, better feedback, and a better game.
New blood is not experiencied and doesn't really know, in depth and yet, all that DotA means. Surprise factor here. Ganking strategies here. Other DotA mechanisms here. This change will make this game easier for noobs, sure, as it will also ruin one of the things DotA All Stars has been made of all this time. Can you guess it? Surprise factor. DotA has been shaped all this time around the rules of WC3, and if you wanna change gamebreaking stuff like this, then a lot of strategies will become useless. Not saying that no new strategies will pop out, but you're messing with the essence of the game here.

I know it's cliché, but c'mon, one last time: don't try to fix what's not broken.

MikeTheHero
01-18-2012, 06:24 PM
-1 In my opinion.


Hiding this information adds nothing to the game. And as you said it takes time to find this info out.
Lets get information on the enemy gold. Make sense doesn't it? We can see their their last hits i think. And the towers that are taken down. Hero kills and etc. This information is there. Just not as visible, need some math skills to calculate it.


All showing the mana bar does is stop hiding information that SHOULD be readily available.
Okay well. Lets get some timers for enemy hero spells? I mean we get to see their abilities right? CD time on spells are there. I mean it will save me time from counting. Time i should be using PLAYING the game??

Pandamonium
01-18-2012, 06:46 PM
-1 In my opinion.


Lets get information on the enemy gold. Make sense doesn't it? We can see their their last hits i think. And the towers that are taken down. Hero kills and etc. This information is there. Just not as visible, need some math skills to calculate it.


Okay well. Lets get some timers for enemy hero spells? I mean we get to see their abilities right? CD time on spells are there. I mean it will save me time from counting. Time i should be using PLAYING the game??

both terribly wrong, you do not see when enemy heroes farm (e.g. neutrals ) so information on gold is not readily available.
Same goes for spells, not everytime someone casts a spell he is in view, this information also is not readily available.
fact is: manabars are the only information in this game that is available, but not displayed in a practical way (well you could argue that kills/deaths and levels are the same since they are displayed in an ugly interface you cant have open all the game because it blocks too much of the screen, but i guess the ui will be changed anyway before release)
either: remove mana totally(no mana can be seen even when clicking enemy heroes, but im against that personally)
or: show manabars like hp bars, since you could already do it in dota1 with addon, and other stuff that could only be done with addons(qwer-skill buttons come to mind) were introduced with dota2.
i dont see anyone crying about qwer keys making the game turn into a noobfest because now you dont have to remember the exact keys for every single hero...
same will be the case when manabars will be introduced, the game will still be dota, the game you (dota 1 purists) love so much you wont accept any changes, and guess what:
you will still be playing it.

Ridicule
01-18-2012, 07:47 PM
I know it's cliché, but c'mon, one last time: don't try to fix what's not broken.


Why are we forcing Valve to spend this time and money simply to PORT the game to the Source engine. This isn't 2004. This ISN'T DoTA1.

This is and should be a sequal. It should be reminicent of DoTA, It should learn from DoTA, but that does not mean that it has to BE THE SAME GAME. When you demand that DoTA 2 adhere to all the same "rules" and nuances of DoTA so that you can preserve its "essence" we just end up with a DoTA expansion.

"Don't fix what ain't broke." That is a terrible, terrible, terrible, (and let me say it one more time just to make sure) terrible arguement for anything. Especially a game. Nothing good ever gets made with that attitude. It was As Henry Ford I believe said, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse." The DoTA purist are asking for shiny DoTA. The same thing as DoTA 1 but with Valve's freaking brilliant brand backing them and their "perfect game".

But DoTA needs the update. It needs all it's great heroes, then some. It needs new. New is risky, but new can be amazing. And if there is any company that can do Risky properly it's valve. They'll baby this game until it's right proper. But in order for that to happen the community needs to be willing to take the risks. Especially while in Beta. Nothing can't be improved.

Kautzman
01-18-2012, 07:53 PM
I know it's cliché, but c'mon, one last time: don't try to fix what's not broken.

It is broken. It's as broken as Goldeneye 64 would be if it was released today. It's antiquated. It's difficulty in some places is arbitrary. It follows a school of design that was borderline acceptable 10 years ago and has since been abandoned. Pretending that somehow the game is without flaw is more frustrating than hilarious.

k9099
01-18-2012, 08:18 PM
Don't get the argument on why people would turtle when they can see mana.

Case 1: If they have mana, don't attack. (In which everyone would not if they can't see mana)
Case 2: If they don't have mana, attack.

If mana bars could be shown on the original DotA none of you would object to it with ALL this skill or no skill rubbish arguments.
Playing DotA for 10 years doesn't mean you automatically gain skill.

MikeTheHero
01-18-2012, 09:07 PM
Don't get the argument on why people would turtle when they can see mana.

Case 1: If they have mana, don't attack. (In which everyone would not if they can't see mana)
Case 2: If they don't have mana, attack.

If mana bars could be shown on the original DotA none of you would object to it with ALL this skill or no skill rubbish arguments.
Playing DotA for 10 years doesn't mean you automatically gain skill.

Agreed. Either they take out the mana information or keep it. If they keep it add the mana bars. No mana bars= made you think more before a initiating a gank. Mana bars= gank when you see low mana. Pretty straightforward. Just saying changing the gameplay of DotA 2 just defeats the purpose of calling it "DotA".
In DotA 1, no one ever complained about mana bars cause mana information wasn't there. It took logic to determine how much mana the enemy has.

idom86
01-18-2012, 09:19 PM
Why are we forcing Valve to spend this time and money simply to PORT the game to the Source engine. This isn't 2004. This ISN'T DoTA1.

This is and should be a sequal. It should be reminicent of DoTA, It should learn from DoTA, but that does not mean that it has to BE THE SAME GAME. When you demand that DoTA 2 adhere to all the same "rules" and nuances of DoTA so that you can preserve its "essence" we just end up with a DoTA expansion.

"Don't fix what ain't broke." That is a terrible, terrible, terrible, (and let me say it one more time just to make sure) terrible arguement for anything. Especially a game. Nothing good ever gets made with that attitude. It was As Henry Ford I believe said, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse." The DoTA purist are asking for shiny DoTA. The same thing as DoTA 1 but with Valve's freaking brilliant brand backing them and their "perfect game".

But DoTA needs the update. It needs all it's great heroes, then some. It needs new. New is risky, but new can be amazing. And if there is any company that can do Risky properly it's valve. They'll baby this game until it's right proper. But in order for that to happen the community needs to be willing to take the risks. Especially while in Beta. Nothing can't be improved.

Dota2 is a copy of Dota1 with new grapics!
And in gods name there wont be bullshit changes like manabars...........
This is Dota and not LoL or Hon...

k9099
01-18-2012, 09:30 PM
Dota2 is a copy of Dota1 with new grapics!
And in gods name there wont be bullshit changes like manabars...........
This is Dota and not LoL or Hon...
I guess you have the wrong idea.
The reason they made DotA 2 is to make a better game without the limitations of the old WC3 engine.
DotA has already outgrown what the WC3 engine could offer.

I know LoL sucks. But it has already come to the point that words like 'Skill', 'LoL' and 'HoN' has become vulgarities.

ZShock
01-18-2012, 09:58 PM
both terribly wrong, you do not see when enemy heroes farm (e.g. neutrals ) so information on gold is not readily available.
Same goes for spells, not everytime someone casts a spell he is in view, this information also is not readily available.
fact is: manabars are the only information in this game that is available, but not displayed in a practical way (well you could argue that kills/deaths and levels are the same since they are displayed in an ugly interface you cant have open all the game because it blocks too much of the screen, but i guess the ui will be changed anyway before release)
either: remove mana totally(no mana can be seen even when clicking enemy heroes, but im against that personally)
or: show manabars like hp bars, since you could already do it in dota1 with addon, and other stuff that could only be done with addons(qwer-skill buttons come to mind) were introduced with dota2.
i dont see anyone crying about qwer keys making the game turn into a noobfest because now you dont have to remember the exact keys for every single hero...
same will be the case when manabars will be introduced, the game will still be dota, the game you (dota 1 purists) love so much you wont accept any changes, and guess what:
you will still be playing it.


Pandamonium, gladly ignore MikeTheHero's arguments, as you know those arguments mean nothing and, as Alpha said, are just a quick-made speech to "be right". Now to your post.

Of course you can add plugins to WarCraft, but in many servers and tournaments these are banned. All but Dota Keys, which have actually helped a lot of players to cast their spells together with their items. Mana bars were not added to DotA 2 for a reason, and I've talked about that reason already. Surprise factor.

Nothing more to see in your post, you're basically saying that custom keys are the same as mana bars. Well, bad news: they're not. Custom keys were pretty much present in Warcraft as well, refer to the customkeys.txt within your Warcraft folder for evidence; while mana bars are not widely accepted. And even if they did, the metagame would change. Strategies would be rendered useless, and believe me, no better strategies will come out from this new system. And if it did, tell me, what's better than those Nevermore juking games where he totally pwns you with a few razes; or they way Venge, using Wave Of Terror, actually puts terror on the enemies and pushes 'em back, having or not having mana.

Tl;dr: Warkeys are accepted everywhere. Enemy mana bars are not, they would destroy base things of the game. Thus, they won't be implemented. Refer to surprise factor.

PS: I'm not a DotA purist, you people just don't wanna see what's there and tend to ignore all the arguments you cannot deny.

Next!


Why are we forcing Valve to spend this time and money simply to PORT the game to the Source engine. This isn't 2004. This ISN'T DoTA1.

This is and should be a sequal. It should be reminicent of DoTA, It should learn from DoTA, but that does not mean that it has to BE THE SAME GAME. When you demand that DoTA 2 adhere to all the same "rules" and nuances of DoTA so that you can preserve its "essence" we just end up with a DoTA expansion.

"Don't fix what ain't broke." That is a terrible, terrible, terrible, (and let me say it one more time just to make sure) terrible arguement for anything. Especially a game. Nothing good ever gets made with that attitude. It was As Henry Ford I believe said, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse." The DoTA purist are asking for shiny DoTA. The same thing as DoTA 1 but with Valve's freaking brilliant brand backing them and their "perfect game".

But DoTA needs the update. It needs all it's great heroes, then some. It needs new. New is risky, but new can be amazing. And if there is any company that can do Risky properly it's valve. They'll baby this game until it's right proper. But in order for that to happen the community needs to be willing to take the risks. Especially while in Beta. Nothing can't be improved.
I have nothing to do with you. Except, maybe, that you said this is a terrible, oh-so-terrible argument. You're so stupid for even bringing it up in the conversation. Here, I will totally ignore the other paragraphs of the post so I am still right. No? Well, that's what I read. One word: sarcasm.

Nevermind, I'll give you a few more words anyway.

I'm not a DotA purist (I'm getting tired of this). Nobody's forcing Valve to do anything, we're just discussing what we like and what we don't like so far, and what we would and would not like to see implemented in the game. You're right, this isn't DotA 1, this is DotA 2; and as so, it should save that essence that you only find in All Stars. Let me remind that it's IceFrog who's working in this project, and also, that he was the first saying that there were not going to be mana bars on the enemies. Wait, that's a bit harsh from my part, let me rephrase it. IceFrog and Valve are taking in account the opinion of everyone, pro, noobs, medium-players and so on; but once again, IceFrog is working in this project... and if you know IceFrog, well... go figure.

Alright! One more!


It is broken. It's as broken as Goldeneye 64 would be if it was released today. It's antiquated. It's difficulty in some places is arbitrary. It follows a school of design that was borderline acceptable 10 years ago and has since been abandoned. Pretending that somehow the game is without flaw is more frustrating than hilarious.

Hehe. Booooring. DotA was made around the WC engine, as I said before. There were no mana bars in the WC engine. Now, let's use some logic. DotA has been around since when, five years ago? Ok. How many heroes do we have? 108, I think, am I wrong? And how many items have been implemented since then? Wait, that doesn't even make sense, let's keep talking about heroes.

HEROES. Sweet heroes. New heroes have been released, all this time. On the base of simple rules! Of the Warcraft world... You can see HP bars. And you cannot see mana bars. Call it engine limitations, but these heroes were born with these "flaw", as you call it. They were born with the ability of surprising your opponents, baiting them to their death... by just playing with their minds. And now you, cruel person, want them to ABANDON this ability! You want them not to be as stealthy as they might be with this "flaw". It's part of them, something they have to live with. They were born to be played like that.

Oh, surprise factor too. Read above.




Don't get the argument on why people would turtle when they can see mana.

Case 1: If they have mana, don't attack. (In which everyone would not if they can't see mana)
Case 2: If they don't have mana, attack.

If mana bars could be shown on the original DotA none of you would object to it with ALL this skill or no skill rubbish arguments.
Playing DotA for 10 years doesn't mean you automatically gain skill.
I also doubt this, my friend, but the theory goes like this. People won't even show themselves with no mana, in fast-paced situations. If your enemies can see that, then you become the easy pray. And since you've showed yourself, you can say bye to this world. Oh, and also the one you were trying to save is dead too, 'cause you, Shaker, couldn't be stealthy enough to make your opponents believe that you were going to stun them. It's a cruel world, indeed. Not. Some mechanics must not change, this is one of them.

And surprise factor in 1v1 situations! Don't forget about them!

Wait, did you just say Playing DotA for 10 years doesn't mean you automatically gain skill? Ten years is far from being called automatic, anyway, my friend. But I thing I get what you wanted to say...

No, I definitely don't, explain it to me, please.



Agreed. Either they take out the mana information or keep it. If they keep it add the mana bars. No mana bars= made you think more before a initiating a gank. Mana bars= gank when you see low mana. Pretty straightforward. Just saying changing the gameplay of DotA 2 just defeats the purpose of calling it "DotA".
In DotA 1, no one ever complained about mana bars cause mana information wasn't there. It took logic to determine how much mana the enemy has.
So, what you just wanted to say is: no mana bars, more clicks before ganking; mana bars, no thinking and thus, no clicks before ganking. None of my arguments were about thinking the gank itself. If you see, my argument is based in three things: surprise factor (duh), leading your enemies to think that you have no mana to help other hero escape, and 1v1 epic and effective juking. The mere act of going to gank will lead you to check for your enemies mana, and you can't just do that through a bar. You must know the exact number, in first place, and then analyze how much spells would they cast with that amount (which usually ends up going as a fucking kamikaze and 1) Winning or 2) Losing). While you could change this to an acceptable level, at the same time you'd be ruining other aspects of the game not to be forgotten.

Good night, sir.

EDIT: I left some people out. Such bad manners.

renzoz
01-19-2012, 07:20 AM
I srly do not understand all this people want dota to become something it's not, at this time there are plenty of other games that can offer you what you want, but just dota 2 remain the same as dota 1; and for some unknown reasons the one that has to change is dota 2, i just can not understand this if you don't like how dota 2 is you ask for change instead of choosing other game that offer that option. So basically you are say'n i like cars more than bike so i will ask everyone who has a bike to buy a car, just because it offers better stuff.
I (and prob a lot of people) just want to enjoy the good dota that has existed for years even with it's "flaws", what dota 2 offer is a better platform along with a better engine.

SmileforMe
01-19-2012, 07:34 AM
MANABARS ON ALL HEROES WOULD DESTROY THE GAME!

YOU ARENT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO SEE ENEMY MANA! MANA HAS TO BE ELEMENTS OF SURPRISE!

SHOWING MANA BARS ON ENEMY HEROES WOULD DESTROY EVERYTHING DOTA STANDS FOR!

slowreflex
01-19-2012, 07:43 AM
MANABARS ON ALL HEROES WOULD DESTROY THE GAME!

YOU ARENT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO SEE ENEMY MANA! MANA HAS TO BE ELEMENTS OF SURPRISE!

SHOWING MANA BARS ON ENEMY HEROES WOULD DESTROY EVERYTHING DOTA STANDS FOR!

Your argument is flawed as you can already see enemy heroes mana by clicking on them. Remove that feature, or add mana bars. Simple.

Also, please stop using all caps...

mk07ki
01-19-2012, 07:45 AM
MANABARS ON ALL HEROES WOULD DESTROY THE GAME!

YOU ARENT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO SEE ENEMY MANA! MANA HAS TO BE ELEMENTS OF SURPRISE!

SHOWING MANA BARS ON ENEMY HEROES WOULD DESTROY EVERYTHING DOTA STANDS FOR!
Yeah, because there's absolutely no way to see mana right now.

ZShock
01-19-2012, 07:46 AM
Your argument is flawed as you can already see enemy heroes mana by clicking on them. Remove that feature, or add mana bars. Man, do I have to say it again? Even the guy said it. Element surprise. And, I say again, fast-paced situations. You don't have time to check enemies mana in fast-paced situations.

AlphaOfUrOmega
01-19-2012, 07:47 AM
Yeah, because there's absolutely no way to see mana right now.


Your argument is flawed as you can already see enemy heroes mana by clicking on them. Remove that feature, or add mana bars. Simple.

Also, please stop using all caps...

The broad, overbearing statements, lack of supporting evidence, incorrect statement of facts, and use of allcaps and exclamation points lead me to believe you just got trolled. There's no sarcasm font, but this is as close as it gets =)

Lanced Jack
01-19-2012, 08:00 AM
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=9856

Already covered in that thread. Topic is classed as Closed for good reason. It's been discussed to death.

Kautzman
01-19-2012, 10:02 AM
Hehe. Booooring. DotA was made around the WC engine, as I said before. There were no mana bars in the WC engine. Now, let's use some logic. DotA has been around since when, five years ago? Ok. How many heroes do we have? 108, I think, am I wrong? And how many items have been implemented since then? Wait, that doesn't even make sense, let's keep talking about heroes.

HEROES. Sweet heroes. New heroes have been released, all this time. On the base of simple rules! Of the Warcraft world... You can see HP bars. And you cannot see mana bars. Call it engine limitations, but these heroes were born with these "flaw", as you call it. They were born with the ability of surprising your opponents, baiting them to their death... by just playing with their minds. And now you, cruel person, want them to ABANDON this ability! You want them not to be as stealthy as they might be with this "flaw". It's part of them, something they have to live with. They were born to be played like that.


Except these alleged mind games don't happen because that information is available and literally one click away. You will have what amounts to effectively a fraction of a second of 'surprise', and this is assuming the enemy team didn't see you at all in the last minute or so. You can't bluff for the same reasons for more than a fraction of a second. These cute little mind game are manufactured as an argument when the real argument is 'it's always been that way'; they simply do no exist.

Furthermore, if your argument is, "It's not broken, it's always been that way and it's supposed to be that way", then we have different issues. Looking at the individual elements objectively and then determining what could be better. In the case of mana bars, it's so terribly easy. Enemy Mana is available, but in an inconvenient location. It's current location represents an APM dump, ergo, remove the APM dump. There are rarely such issues that are so simple to address.

ZShock
01-19-2012, 10:20 AM
Except these alleged mind games don't happen because that information is available and literally one click away. You will have what amounts to effectively a fraction of a second of 'surprise', and this is assuming the enemy team didn't see you at all in the last minute or so. You can't bluff for the same reasons for more than a fraction of a second. These cute little mind game are manufactured as an argument when the real argument is 'it's always been that way'; they simply do no exist.

Furthermore, if your argument is, "It's not broken, it's always been that way and it's supposed to be that way", then we have different issues. Looking at the individual elements objectively and then determining what could be better. In the case of mana bars, it's so terribly easy. Enemy Mana is available, but in an inconvenient location. It's current location represents an APM dump, ergo, remove the APM dump. There are rarely such issues that are so simple to address.Ah... do I have to explain again the surprise factor? You won't click at a Crixalis coming out of the jungle in 0.25 seconds to check his mana while you chase another hero. You will run away because he *could* stun you, resulting in a kill. These "alleged mind games" happen every time. It's not 'cause it's always been this way. It's 'cause it's always been this way and because of this, many main things of the game have been made having this in mind. Having what? Surprise factor.

Second paragraph. The same, plus this: it's not the same watching a zero mana bar from this same Crixalis than a full mana bar. The difference is that if you don't see that bar, then you will be afraid because you won't really know until you click him. And will you? When you're next to the enemy tower and being stunned could lead you to die? You must choose.

mk07ki
01-19-2012, 11:09 AM
And will you?
I will. It's a fast-paced game, you're supposed to be fast. Not to mention, most of these examples are biased as hell.

ZShock
01-19-2012, 11:16 AM
Have fun giving first blood to the opponent team, then. Fast-paced doesn't mean you should suicide, unless you run short of fingers.

mk07ki
01-19-2012, 11:30 AM
Have fun giving first blood to the opponent team, then. Fast-paced doesn't mean you should suicide, unless you run short of fingers.
FB means that it's early game, where did SK waste his mana? What lane is he coming from, mid? So, he probably has a bottle, why would he leave his lane without mana/bottle charges? This way you don't even need to check his mana, he's obviously going to stun you. Your examples are both biased and unrealistic.
I agree with you about surprise factor, but it doesn't have much to do with the mana. When you're ambushed you don't get screwed because you didn't check mana, you get screwed because you got ambushed.

Meatsmoosh
01-19-2012, 11:46 AM
According to ZShock, ganking and counter-ganking will become obsolete by adding mana bars. Right...

RIPREV
01-19-2012, 12:08 PM
-1. stupid OP

rtdm
01-19-2012, 12:50 PM
-1. stupid OP
this

OrangeSky
01-19-2012, 01:25 PM
Your argument is flawed as you can already see enemy heroes mana by clicking on them. Remove that feature, or add mana bars. Simple.

Also, please stop using all caps...

This. Either explicitly display it or remove it from the game, why hide information like that?

flick1111
01-19-2012, 02:23 PM
Scenario: you are seeker chasing low hp maiden and you tower dive knowing you will kill her in 2 more hits cause you checked her mana and its empty. Suddendly u see lion w.o. mana comming behind the trees and you back thinking he will stun and rape you under tower. With mana bars you know he cant do shit and you kill maiden/ w.o. mana bars you back and maiden lives. There is so much more depth and mindgame without seeing enemys mana bar and i would feel sorry to lose that. Icefrog feels same.
Also if you really want to play game with manabars there are 2 on the market so feel free to play them. If you want to play real stuff stay and play dota. All you who keep saying that you can see enemys mana anyway shhhh,dont tell it to everyone, capitalise it and win cause the rest of us never actually click on enemy hero. Noobs

Kautzman
01-19-2012, 02:35 PM
Ah... do I have to explain again the surprise factor? You won't click at a Crixalis coming out of the jungle in 0.25 seconds to check his mana while you chase another hero. You will run away because he *could* stun you, resulting in a kill. These "alleged mind games" happen every time. It's not 'cause it's always been this way. It's 'cause it's always been this way and because of this, many main things of the game have been made having this in mind. Having what? Surprise factor.


Find me one clip in the Dota Beta Release Tournament where the 'surprise factor' mattered, where mind games were being played that hinged on available mana. You have several hours of footage available. I'm sure you can find something

flick1111
01-19-2012, 02:40 PM
Find me one clip in the Dota Beta Release Tournament where the 'surprise factor' mattered, where mind games were being played that hinged on available mana. You have several hours of footage available. I'm sure you can find something
If you are seasoned dota1 player you would know these situation exists in every game, you really dont need replays for that. If you on the other hand started with lol or hon you wouldnt know it cause you are playing a game where you see enemies mana on the first sight of the enemy, not 1 or 2 sec later when you actually have time to click him.

vladhood
01-19-2012, 02:54 PM
If you are seasoned dota1 player you would know these situation exists in every game, you really dont need replays for that

exactly, so why are you worried about this topic so much? valve isn't going to change the gameplay just because some league of legends player is coming onto the forums and writing 3,000 word essays on how difficult the UI is to navigate. checking mana, making the decision to check mana and not being able to assess the threat of someone thats run into your fov for a split second (or not long enough to check mana) are all parts of dota's gameplay. i trust valve not to tamper with it.

langtutheky
01-19-2012, 03:21 PM
exactly, so why are you worried about this topic so much? valve isn't going to change the gameplay just because some league of legends player is coming onto the forums and writing 3,000 word essays on how difficult the UI is to navigate. checking mana, making the decision to check mana and not being able to assess the threat of someone thats run into your fov for a split second (or not long enough to check mana) are all parts of dota's gameplay. i trust valve not to tamper with it.

Why is league of legends always the excuse for not opening your mind to new idea? Valve will really appreciate people like you to help improve their game.

ZShock
01-19-2012, 04:08 PM
FB means that it's early game, where did SK waste his mana? What lane is he coming from, mid? So, he probably has a bottle, why would he leave his lane without mana/bottle charges? This way you don't even need to check his mana, he's obviously going to stun you. Your examples are both biased and unrealistic.
I agree with you about surprise factor, but it doesn't have much to do with the mana. When you're ambushed you don't get screwed because you didn't check mana, you get screwed because you got ambushed.

Exchange Crix for anything: Venge, Lion, Leoric which you know doesn't really have much mana, or anything. I can't see how unrealistic this is, they are pretty much common cases you can see in mid-pro games. No, it's not obvious that he/she, whatev, has mana. Ie: going bot for help, not just ganking. Options are infinite, thus your argument is the biased here.

K.


According to ZShock, ganking and counter-ganking will become obsolete by adding mana bars. Right...

Nah, it will just ruin a good part of the game. Chill. Wait. Don't chill!


Find me one clip in the Dota Beta Release Tournament where the 'surprise factor' mattered, where mind games were being played that hinged on available mana. You have several hours of footage available. I'm sure you can find something

Look it up youself, it's not that hard. Plus, in pro games there are wards everywhere, it's hard not to see your enemies mana while playing high level matches. Don't be shy and watch some DotA All Stars games too, true magic is there. Have fun.

Guys, don't fight over HoN or LoL... that's so mainstream.

nYn
01-19-2012, 04:34 PM
I actually prefer it without mana bars (coming from HoN/LoL)

vladhood
01-19-2012, 05:15 PM
Why is league of legends always the excuse for not opening your mind to new idea? Valve will really appreciate people like you to help improve their game.

what? i was stating facts

Kautzman
01-19-2012, 05:28 PM
Look it up youself, it's not that hard. Plus, in pro games there are wards everywhere, it's hard not to see your enemies mana while playing high level matches. Don't be shy and watch some DotA All Stars games too, true magic is there. Have fun.

Guys, don't fight over HoN or LoL... that's so mainstream.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. I've played a decent deal of Dota and cannot think of a single time when quasi-hidden mana bars have been anything but an inconvenience or obnoxious exclusion, and I'm far from great at the game. The reason why I asked this 'favor' in the first place was because it's not actually possible to find a clip that demonstrates it because it never happens.

RystariuS
01-19-2012, 05:39 PM
I want this to happen.

Staxx
01-20-2012, 08:43 AM
Do this Valve! Enemies mana isn't hidden information anyway since u can see it by clikcing on em, so why make it more user unfriendly if this isnt necessary? Only because some tryhards think game will be too easy then (bullshit btw) and LoL did it. There is no reason to make a game harder than it has to be!

OrangeSky
01-20-2012, 08:54 AM
^even better: remove it from enemy hud.

AlphaOfUrOmega
01-20-2012, 10:30 AM
...I've played a decent deal of Dota and cannot think of a single time when quasi-hidden mana bars have been anything but an inconvenience or obnoxious exclusion, and I'm far from great at the game...

I can think of times, like having to back up for a split second before chasing down a pebbles in the woods. The thing is, these instances are:

1. Rare. Is it worth it to inconvenience players throughout the entire game in order to have a small chance that this inconvenience makes a difference?
2. Detrimental to gameplay. Having to back off and play safe due to making this information unnecessarily difficult to access is an example of passive gameplay. Not a single person I've met wants a metagame like LoL's, where there's an average of 5 kills at the 35 minute mark. Ganks make the game more fun by introducing a greater PvP aspect.

So I really can't think of a single positive reason for hiding manabars. This was the only one I had on my mind, but when analyzed, it sucks.

neeesteea
01-20-2012, 10:38 AM
NO! Absolutely nO! -1

Banethulhu
01-20-2012, 10:41 AM
-1 all the way, keep it the way it is, with mana bars anti-mage wold use his ultimate way too easily

Pandamonium
01-20-2012, 04:23 PM
-1 all the way, keep it the way it is, with mana bars anti-mage wold use his ultimate way too easily

this is the *sry* possibly most stupid argument against it. this game is balanced for high-level-play, dont you think pro players click enemies anyway before ulting with am? and the way people use am in public mm now, they will still use it on targets with a lot of mana left even when they see the manabar.

by your argumentation, the enemy health bar should be removed too, so necrolyte cant ulti so easily. and yet with hp bars nearly every necrolyte ive seen in my games makes the mistake of using ult on people with over 66% or more hp, rendering his ult useless.

tl:dr am players will still be idiots, even with mana bars added, so ur argument is invalid

windrunnerxj
01-20-2012, 04:31 PM
-1
Dota doesn't need this feature.

Irrelevante
01-20-2012, 04:36 PM
So I really can't think of a single positive reason for hiding manabars. This was the only one I had on my mind, but when analyzed, it sucks.

I don't think fake casting was ever correctly addressed in this thread. What about it? Sure it's not exactly gamebreaking but it's definetly useful for heroes with long casting animations.

Pandamonium
01-20-2012, 04:44 PM
easily fixed by showing the usage of mana only after spell was successfully casted, mana will get used instantly but enemy will not see until the spell actually casts

Banethulhu
01-20-2012, 04:45 PM
this is the *sry* possibly most stupid argument against it. this game is balanced for high-level-play, dont you think pro players click enemies anyway before ulting with am? and the way people use am in public mm now, they will still use it on targets with a lot of mana left even when they see the manabar.

by your argumentation, the enemy health bar should be removed too, so necrolyte cant ulti so easily. and yet with hp bars nearly every necrolyte ive seen in my games makes the mistake of using ult on people with over 66% or more hp, rendering his ult useless.

tl:dr am players will still be idiots, even with mana bars added, so ur argument is invalid

I'm just pointing out one example

having a concealed mana bar is different from having a concealed health bar, if you aren't able to see their mana you won't take such a risk attacking because you don't know if they can counter with a spell or not, sure you can click on the to see their mana but once you do that you will lose control over your hero and that little time you lose control can cost you alot in a battle, especially if you're in the middle of a team fight

Irrelevante
01-20-2012, 05:09 PM
easily fixed by showing the usage of mana only after spell was successfully casted, mana will get used instantly but enemy will not see until the spell actually casts

Outdated info is not -in any way- useful for players, even if it's by a second or two.

Besides, unless the mana bar itself is segmented, it'll be hard to tell how much actual mana the hero has (read: Pugna's halved manapool is a lot more than ES' halved manapool, not to mention the issues of calculating stat booster items in as well). Also, most spells cost irregular amounts of mana. Take ES' Lvl 3 fissure at 155 mana. You wouldn't be sure if the ES has enough mana for fissure since, even with a custom segmentation at 150 mana, you would be forced to click over the ES to check his actual mana. Thus killing the purpose of the mana bar entirely.


but once you do that you will lose control over your hero and that little time you lose control can cost you alot in a battle, especially if you're in the middle of a team fight

This is a non-issue. In dota 2, you do not lose control over your hero while selecting an enemy hero. Older players got accustomed to pressing f1 after checking an enemy hero. Newer players simply don't get affected since you still control your hero and the HUD snaps back to your hero's HUD once you press any hotkey that's relevant to the hero's management.

AlphaOfUrOmega
01-20-2012, 10:49 PM
I don't think fake casting was ever correctly addressed in this thread. What about it? Sure it's not exactly gamebreaking but it's definetly useful for heroes with long casting animations.

Ah yes, I forgot this, good call. It didn't cross my mind since people were still able to fake cast in HoN to a degree, since mana wouldn't get removed until the end of long cast times.

All time-delayed skills that can be canceled during cast before going into effect wouldn't be affected (obviously), but in a few specific cases, like Kunkka's torrent, where an observant player could pick out a fake cast and change his play accordingly. I don't think there's too many of these spells though, and I'd rather add convenience and consistency to every second of every game, though it may change the plays for a few seconds of some games.

Irrelevante
01-20-2012, 11:47 PM
Ah yes, I forgot this, good call. It didn't cross my mind since people were still able to fake cast in HoN to a degree, since mana wouldn't get removed until the end of long cast times.

All time-delayed skills that can be canceled during cast before going into effect wouldn't be affected (obviously), but in a few specific cases, like Kunkka's torrent, where an observant player could pick out a fake cast and change his play accordingly. I don't think there's too many of these spells though, and I'd rather add convenience and consistency to every second of every game, though it may change the plays for a few seconds of some games.

Valid points, though it doesn't fix the problem with adding a manabar, namely: being able to show the information to the player in a way that it will be relevant to his/her gameplay.


Unless the mana bar itself is segmented, it'll be hard to tell how much actual mana the hero has (read: Pugna's halved manapool is a lot more than ES' halved manapool, not to mention the issues of calculating stat booster items in as well). Also, most spells cost irregular amounts of mana. Take ES' Lvl 3 fissure at 155 mana. You wouldn't be sure if the ES has enough mana for fissure since, even with a custom segmentation at 150 mana, you would be forced to click over the ES to check his actual mana. Thus killing the purpose of the mana bar entirely.

FightFate
01-21-2012, 11:29 AM
You guys should really learn to quicken your actions and check everyone's mana yourself.

This is part of the game, and I hope to whoever the eff is in the skies and Valve that it will remain a part of the game.

Timbonator
01-21-2012, 07:23 PM
I really love how OP gives all the answer already to why this should never be implemented. Good job, you just owned yourself...

Pandamonium
01-23-2012, 12:58 PM
Outdated info is not -in any way- useful for players, even if it's by a second or two.

Besides, unless the mana bar itself is segmented, it'll be hard to tell how much actual mana the hero has (read: Pugna's halved manapool is a lot more than ES' halved manapool, not to mention the issues of calculating stat booster items in as well). Also, most spells cost irregular amounts of mana. Take ES' Lvl 3 fissure at 155 mana. You wouldn't be sure if the ES has enough mana for fissure since, even with a custom segmentation at 150 mana, you would be forced to click over the ES to check his actual mana. Thus killing the purpose of the mana bar entirely.


So basically you are saying its hard to tell how much mana the hero has even with mana bars, making it a factor of skill to be able to interpret enemies' mana bars (like your example, pugna will have more mana at half mana than es). This does not kill the purpose of the mana bar, but rather promotes the implementation, im not asking of valve to show me the exact values (thats ridiculous, i also dont want to see the exact hp values of enemies) but to get an idea at what percentage of mana an enemy hero is atm, interpreting the information given by the unsequented mana bar is up to your own personal dota experience/skill. If i want to know more, i can always click the hero.

MwazZ
01-23-2012, 01:11 PM
If you want to see manabars go play HoN?

Not to offend anyone but the last 10 years of DotA you've never been able to see any manabars, have you missed that completley? It's a large portion of the game.

Codedzero
01-23-2012, 01:12 PM
No way. Showing mana bar just pushes DotA a big step into easy mode games like HoN and LoL

oblio
01-23-2012, 01:16 PM
-1

Reason:
Dota is a strategy/tactical game. A major part of strategy/tactics is gathering information about the enemy.
Showing your allies' mana bars all the time? Great. You should have full information about your allies, because you're supposed to share information.
Showing the enemy's mana bar? How did you get this information? Mana is magical energy - how did you notice the mana level? The enemy for sure didn't give you that information, since it's not an advantage for him.

Why do we see enemy HP bars? Easy. Damaging the enemy is obvious, you see wounds. I think they're actually adding wounded animations for heroes right now - great idea ;)

ExploreHer
01-23-2012, 01:28 PM
If dota on wc3 showed all mana bars you'd all be singing a different tune.

Hurry up and implement this most basic of features.

endol
01-23-2012, 01:47 PM
If dota on wc3 showed all mana bars you'd all be singing a different tune.

Hurry up and implement this most basic of features.There's no 'if'. did u know that you get banned if u use it on the original dota? I think those people just wanna make dota2 their game instead of everyone's game >_>

Irrelevante
01-23-2012, 02:46 PM
So basically you are saying its hard to tell how much mana the hero has even with mana bars, making it a factor of skill to be able to interpret enemies' mana bars (like your example, pugna will have more mana at half mana than es). This does not kill the purpose of the mana bar, but rather promotes the implementation, im not asking of valve to show me the exact values (thats ridiculous, i also dont want to see the exact hp values of enemies) but to get an idea at what percentage of mana an enemy hero is atm, interpreting the information given by the unsequented mana bar is up to your own personal dota experience/skill. If i want to know more, i can always click the hero.

Good point, actually. That would maybe make new players focus on knowing heroes stats and stat growths.

Still, personally, I find manabars would be of little to no use. Maybe it's because I'm already accustomed to checking enemy heroes for mana/health/items before I decide to go into action. So it really becomes useless to seasoned dota players, as for newer ones, they do not know the manacost of most spells, cooldowns, etc. so giving them this info would be quite useless. It would, however, be interesting to see how a seasoned players that was exposed to manabars could say about the matter. Maybe someone that played HoN could tell us how manabars affect the gameplay. Who knows, it might be benefitial for the game in the long run.

Kautzman
01-23-2012, 07:56 PM
-1

Reason:
Dota is a strategy/tactical game. A major part of strategy/tactics is gathering information about the enemy.
Showing your allies' mana bars all the time? Great. You should have full information about your allies, because you're supposed to share information.
Showing the enemy's mana bar? How did you get this information? Mana is magical energy - how did you notice the mana level? The enemy for sure didn't give you that information, since it's not an advantage for him.

Why do we see enemy HP bars? Easy. Damaging the enemy is obvious, you see wounds. I think they're actually adding wounded animations for heroes right now - great idea ;)

So your argument according to Line 3 and 5 of that post is, "One reason enemy mana bars shouldn't be implemented is because it's not realistic." Right. Just a small aside: You do realize that things like 'mana' and 'mystic energy' and 'casting spells' and 'killing towers/ancients' is all from the land of fantasies, yes?

Frost
01-23-2012, 09:21 PM
Manabars will screw up illusion heroes. People will know which one is the real thing at first glance.

Ghostlike
01-23-2012, 10:13 PM
This would completely break Dota. Stop suggesting noob shit from League of Legends.

You see, in Dota, you have to actually make decisions. Stop trying to turn Dota into that noob fuck game.

Kautzman
01-23-2012, 11:21 PM
This would completely break Dota. Stop suggesting noob shit from League of Legends.

You see, in Dota, you have to actually make decisions. Stop trying to turn Dota into that noob fuck game.

What a great contribution! Would you perhaps like to expand on this assumption that it would somehow 'break dota'? This may require more than 2 sentences!

oblio
01-24-2012, 12:04 AM
So your argument according to Line 3 and 5 of that post is, "One reason enemy mana bars shouldn't be implemented is because it's not realistic." Right. Just a small aside: You do realize that things like 'mana' and 'mystic energy' and 'casting spells' and 'killing towers/ancients' is all from the land of fantasies, yes?
Every fictional world/universe should try to be as realistic as possible. As in, be logical and self-consistent (unless you're attempting to follow Ionescu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Ionescu). It makes it easier for people to reason about it and to accept it. You make some core assumptions, which can be fantastic, like mana and casting spells. But after that, you still need some sort of rules/logic.
What I'm saying is that your suggestion breaks one of those assumptions, IMO - it's like the enemies are flaunting their abilities. And it's not to their best interest, they would like to hide that. Presumably they can't hide HP (you can notice wounds, as I said), or items (since they wear/wield them).


Manabars will screw up illusion heroes. People will know which one is the real thing at first glance.
You synchronize the mana bars, shouldn't be hard to do. This isn't a big problem.
IMO the problem is the point I mentioned before.

AlphaOfUrOmega
01-24-2012, 12:24 AM
Every fictional world/universe should try to be as realistic as possible. As in, be logical and self-consistent (unless you're attempting to follow Ionescu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Ionescu). It makes it easier for people to reason about it and to accept it. You make some core assumptions, which can be fantastic, like mana and casting spells. But after that, you still need some sort of rules/logic.
What I'm saying is that your suggestion breaks one of those assumptions, IMO - it's like the enemies are flaunting their abilities. And it's not to their best interest, they would like to hide that. Presumably they can't hide HP (you can notice wounds, as I said), or items (since they wear/wield them).

There's a few legitimate arguments against mana bars, but sorry, this isn't one of them. This was the logic that LoL used to get rid of denies (attacking your allies is unrealistic!), but that was highly detrimental to gameplay. Gameplay comes first, so focus on that instead.

CGar
01-24-2012, 10:31 AM
So tired of this argument. Manabars would change the gameplay too much, please stop bringing up this issue.

Kevinriz9r
01-24-2012, 10:48 AM
no we dont need this. This game is much easier with this function when u realy need this go and play HoN

rtdm
01-24-2012, 11:08 AM
Moderators should ban people who start threads about manabars.

just4playing101
01-24-2012, 11:08 AM
i tried a manabar software for warcraft 3 and then played anti-mage.. i became depressed and ashamed of myself

AlphaOfUrOmega
01-24-2012, 12:23 PM
So tired of this argument. Manabars would change the gameplay too much, please stop bringing up this issue.

It's OK to change gameplay. DotA has had many past changes that radically altered gameplay far more than adding manabars would. Making blink get disabled for 3 seconds upon taking damage and the introduction of the side-shops are two examples.

Now you just have to figure whether it makes the game more or less fun. Too bad everyone has different definitions of fun.

endol
01-24-2012, 01:02 PM
Now you just have to figure whether it makes the game more or less fun.making a change is not simple as whether its fun or not-_-, i've seen a lot of ur replies, you should go make your OWN game, this game is for everyone not just for u

Kautzman
01-24-2012, 01:34 PM
Every fictional world/universe should try to be as realistic as possible. As in, be logical and self-consistent (unless you're attempting to follow Ionescu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Ionescu). It makes it easier for people to reason about it and to accept it. You make some core assumptions, which can be fantastic, like mana and casting spells. But after that, you still need some sort of rules/logic.
What I'm saying is that your suggestion breaks one of those assumptions, IMO - it's like the enemies are flaunting their abilities. And it's not to their best interest, they would like to hide that. Presumably they can't hide HP (you can notice wounds, as I said), or items (since they wear/wield them).


I find myself willing to accept this as a reason for some to be quite honest. I still don't agree with it as I am very much 'function above all else', but I do understand why that I might be an issue for some. Thanks for that.

Pandamonium
01-24-2012, 02:24 PM
Good point, actually. That would maybe make new players focus on knowing heroes stats and stat growths.

Still, personally, I find manabars would be of little to no use. Maybe it's because I'm already accustomed to checking enemy heroes for mana/health/items before I decide to go into action. So it really becomes useless to seasoned dota players, as for newer ones, they do not know the manacost of most spells, cooldowns, etc. so giving them this info would be quite useless. It would, however, be interesting to see how a seasoned players that was exposed to manabars could say about the matter. Maybe someone that played HoN could tell us how manabars affect the gameplay. Who knows, it might be benefitial for the game in the long run.

i am a hon player, and i think its not detrimental to gameplay.. but elitists on these forums will call anything from hon detrimental to gameplay, so my opinion wont matter.

AlphaOfUrOmega
01-24-2012, 03:23 PM
It's OK to change gameplay. DotA has had many past changes that radically altered gameplay far more than adding manabars would. Making blink get disabled for 3 seconds upon taking damage and the introduction of the side-shops are two examples.

Now you just have to figure whether it makes the game more or less fun. Too bad everyone has different definitions of fun.


making a change is not simple as whether its fun or not-_-, i've seen a lot of ur replies, you should go make your OWN game, this game is for everyone not just for u

Errrrr, what? Sorry, I'm confused. I state that everyone has different definitions of fun, therefore I'm selfish?

I do think it's hard to argue that fun isn't the heart and soul of a video game. If you lift weights, you're improving yourself aesthetically. If you study, you improve your thinking abilities. If you play video games... well, you could be a professional trying to earn money, but for well over 99% of players, you're probably just having fun.

All I was saying is that fun should be rated higher than fear of change. DotA is a game that prides itself on change, after all, and not everyone has been behind every DotA change. For every person in this thread who disagrees with adding manabars, there was a person who disagreed with adding siege creeps back in the day. But it doesn't necessarily make them right or wrong.

Irrelevante
01-24-2012, 05:14 PM
i am a hon player, and i think its not detrimental to gameplay.. but elitists on these forums will call anything from hon detrimental to gameplay, so my opinion wont matter.

We're discussing the matter in a civilized and logical way. If it gets implemented or not is up to valve's devs and IF. So no worries, even if threads like these get spammed with "-1"s and "dumb idea" with no sort of support, we're still leaving a decent discussion of pros and cons in this thread. In short, we're adding the feedback we were asked for when we got into the beta.

klfw
01-24-2012, 06:37 PM
i believe this is a dota game not hon

taeyeonkim
01-24-2012, 07:27 PM
If the dota community wanted mana bars, they would be added. Unfortunately for you HoN/LoL players, they don't

X10d3Ad
01-24-2012, 08:08 PM
I too vote nay on the mana bars. It's almost like a cheat.

hsdvo
01-24-2012, 08:28 PM
I vote that everyone who reposts this topic should be banned from dota

dietsunkists
01-24-2012, 10:35 PM
+1

dota players are like old white people. they're afraid of change even when it benefits the game.

Vipu
01-24-2012, 11:17 PM
No manabars plz...
I was HoN player but still this is dota.
Manabars to see 24/7 is just too easy when you instantly see if enemy have mana or not.

Keep LoL as LoL and Dota as Dota plz dont make it fking ezmode game where you press 1 button and just watch rest like movie.

Kautzman
01-25-2012, 01:06 AM
If the dota community wanted mana bars, they would be added. Unfortunately for you HoN/LoL players, they don't

"The only people in the Dota community are people who hold the same opinions I do."

slowreflex
01-25-2012, 01:13 AM
This is a beta. Valve should use us as guinea pigs on highly controversial suggestions like this. Turn mana bars on for 2 weeks and then gather feedback when the test is over.

Kautzman
01-25-2012, 01:27 AM
This is a beta. Valve should use us as guinea pigs on highly controversial suggestions like this. Turn mana bars on for 2 weeks and then gather feedback when the test is over.

I think this would really be a great way of going about testing such changes. However, I worry about the quality and objectivity of the feedback. If these forums are any indication, a lot of the Dota community is pretty incapable of objective thinking and the single to noise ratio is really quite awful.

To be honest, I look at Valve games and I have a very difficult time believing they will be launching the game without a long list of quality of life improvements. It's not very much like Valve to embrace difficulty at the UI/Interface level, opting instead of implementing depth at the gameplay and decision making level. As such, I truly believe mana bars are not a debate, but an eventuality.

okrane
01-25-2012, 01:35 AM
While I am all for accessibility and a clear interface, I agree that casters are already pretty disadvantaged and require more skill than autoattackers for this to be a good idea.
Mana runs out very fast in DotA and when mana is low you can't do anything with your character.
So I am against this suggestion.

Pandamonium
01-25-2012, 07:06 AM
While I am all for accessibility and a clear interface, I agree that casters are already pretty disadvantaged and require more skill than autoattackers for this to be a good idea.
Mana runs out very fast in DotA and when mana is low you can't do anything with your character.
So I am against this suggestion.

both wrong, youd be amazed to see what some players can accomplish with little to no mana left, and your mana only runs out fast if you keep spamming your spells, which is your own fault.

Pandamonium
01-25-2012, 07:08 AM
We're discussing the matter in a civilized and logical way. If it gets implemented or not is up to valve's devs and IF. So no worries, even if threads like these get spammed with "-1"s and "dumb idea" with no sort of support, we're still leaving a decent discussion of pros and cons in this thread. In short, we're adding the feedback we were asked for when we got into the beta.

thats what i have been generally trying to do so far, but the amount of +1s or -1s without any explanation in almost ever suggestion thread is outrageous..

Frost
01-25-2012, 07:50 AM
You synchronize the mana bars, shouldn't be hard to do. This isn't a big problem.
IMO the problem is the point I mentioned before.

But then illusions will have their mana pool randomly decreased whenever the real hero uses a spell, revealing that it is indeed an illusion, causing more problems.

vladhood
01-25-2012, 08:00 AM
why is this still open? lol

Wandang
01-25-2012, 08:10 AM
but the amount of +1s or -1s without any explanation in almost ever suggestion thread is outrageous..

you rnt familiar with playdota.com forums? if an idea gets enough T-ups or +1 it would have gotten IF attention and eventually put into the game.
normal procedure.

Mr.Hankey
01-25-2012, 11:53 AM
DOTA 2 allready had mana bars BUT the pros did't want it becuse they thought it destroyed the game so valve dissabled the manabars before the tournament ofc!

SO plz STOP posting threads to add mana bars cuse it wont happend just accept it and deal whit it!
If the dotacommunity wanted mana bars they would be added long time ago becuse it is not a wc3 engine prob.
And don't blame the dota community to be small it's infact BIG AS HELL icefrog told us that 7-10 million ppl downloaded from getdota.com (6.73c) and there he can't count thoose who download in game and the number does NOT incclude chinese mirror and 80& of all dota players are from china . Just saying that the dota community is bigger than u think :).
And what is my point`? well THE COMMUNITY DON'T WANT MANABARS STOP ASKING FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Diabolic
01-25-2012, 11:59 AM
DOTA 2 allready had mana bars BUT the pros did't want it becuse they thought it destroyed the game so valve dissabled the manabars before the tournament ofc!

SO plz STOP posting threads to add mana bars cuse it wont happend just accept it and deal whit it!
If the dotacommunity wanted mana bars they would be added long time ago becuse it is not a wc3 engine prob.
And don't blame the dota community to be small it's infact BIG AS HELL icefrog told us that 7-10 million ppl downloaded from getdota.com (6.73c) and there he can't count thoose who download in game and the number does NOT incclude chinese mirror and 80& of all dota players are from china . Just saying that the dota community is bigger than u think :).
And what is my point`? well THE COMMUNITY DON'T WANT MANABARS STOP ASKING FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!Do you have any idea wtf are you talking about or do you have any real opinion that is based on some statistics or you're just that bad at making stuff up?

Sencho
01-25-2012, 12:08 PM
Showing mana bars of your opponents would make the game a lot easier for players who use Anti Mage (because he could easily blink in and use ultimate on someone) and just in general. That would be bad in my opinion because it makes the game less competitive and since we have a casual version of DotA called LoL already, it would be a bad idea. Mana bars for your teammates took some of the things you have to look out before clashing already, so I dont want it to get even easier..

endol
01-25-2012, 12:12 PM
looking at this thread is a wasting of time, people should just comment agree or disagree and stop putting opinions, cuz no one is convinced, and no one needs to be convinced on this stupid topic

TheWilder
01-25-2012, 12:17 PM
looking at this thread is a wasting of time, people should just comment agree or disagree and stop putting opinions, cuz no one is convinced, and no one needs to be convinced on this stupid topic
I agree.

If I were a moderator I would close this thread, it's useles and it's not providing any useful feedback, just lot of whining.

Mr.Hankey
01-25-2012, 12:37 PM
Do you have any idea wtf are you talking about or do you have any real opinion that is based on some statistics or you're just that bad at making stuff up?

http://www.playdota.com/forums/blog.php?b=892
Q: How popular is DotA these days? (from china_white)

A: I can only give estimates based on getdota.com usage, because I can't track ingame downloads or fansites or downloads from China. It is roughly estimated (based on the statistics from popular Chinese sites) that the Chinese DotA audience is about 40-50% of the worldwide audience. Not counting China, the playerbase is estimated to be somewhere between 7-11 million. I expect the audience to grow even more in the not too distant future.

ok the chinese pleyers was only 50% so I had wrong there but hey i'm mad!
and my first statment is some rumors i heard from many sources

BUT still if the community wanted manabars they would be added long time ago!

Pandamonium
01-26-2012, 03:17 AM
above is only giving out numbers concerning the player base.. did you let all those players fill out a survey if they want mana bars or not? no you didnt, not even with a representative group of them. the argument IF THE COMMUNITY WANTED IT IT WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED is flawed, community also wants cheeper items and nerfs on pubstomp heroes, but they wont get it because dota is balanced for pro players not public games.

Diabolic
01-26-2012, 05:24 AM
http://www.playdota.com/forums/blog.php?b=892
Q: How popular is DotA these days? (from china_white)

A: I can only give estimates based on getdota.com usage, because I can't track ingame downloads or fansites or downloads from China. It is roughly estimated (based on the statistics from popular Chinese sites) that the Chinese DotA audience is about 40-50% of the worldwide audience. Not counting China, the playerbase is estimated to be somewhere between 7-11 million. I expect the audience to grow even more in the not too distant future.

ok the chinese pleyers was only 50% so I had wrong there but hey i'm mad!
and my first statment is some rumors i heard from many sources

BUT still if the community wanted manabars they would be added long time ago!
I'll ask few questions.

- Who are these "pro" players?
- Selected by whom?
- You sure it's not WC3 engine problem? Since WC3 never had mana bars naturally and there was no way to make it look natural and elegant and it always needed lots of vJass coding.
- Where the hell you got the exact decision of "DotA community" while there are many threads on many boards about this issue?

Mr.Hankey
01-26-2012, 10:05 AM
I'll ask few questions.

- Who are these "pro" players?
- Selected by whom?
- You sure it's not WC3 engine problem? Since WC3 never had mana bars naturally and there was no way to make it look natural and elegant and it always needed lots of vJass coding.
- Where the hell you got the exact decision of "DotA community" while there are many threads on many boards about this issue?

http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/teams/
it was the best teams from dota1.
No i'm not sure but you can download programs BUT it's illegal in tournaments and so on.
just take a look at playdota .com darer.com dotalicious-gaming.com and so on. WE DON'T WANT IT!!!

So stop crying brainwashed idiot!
It's no idea to argue cuse icefrog will never accept this!

Close this fucking thread pls. it makes me so angry it will never happed OK?

slowreflex
01-26-2012, 10:25 AM
If all of you want it closed then just stop posting on it and it will eventually go away. Posting that it should be closed is just bumping it to the front page...

And yes this will bump it, but I don't care if it's bumped or not.

Wandang
01-26-2012, 10:58 AM
Mr. Hankey should just get revoked from being in the beta. he spills rumours, doesnt have any clue of the competitve scene whatsoever and is of no use in any way, shape or form.
diabolic is just right about it.

Diabolic
01-26-2012, 11:21 AM
http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/teams/
it was the best teams from dota1.
No i'm not sure but you can download programs BUT it's illegal in tournaments and so on.
just take a look at playdota .com darer.com dotalicious-gaming.com and so on. WE DON'T WANT IT!!!

So stop crying brainwashed idiot!
It's no idea to argue cuse icefrog will never accept this!

Close this fucking thread pls. it makes me so angry it will never happed OK?
Good job trying to insult and flame me and failing enormously
Good job trying to spread shit without showing any real source.
Good job basing your arguments to nowhere.

You're angry because you think you can make final decisions about a game that you have no relation anything other than being in it's beta.

Keep sucking and keep being angry.

OrangeSky
01-26-2012, 02:04 PM
We don't want mana bars but one thing is for sure, the way it is now is bad. Why hide information? That's not a good 'game engineering' practice.

Choose one: Either show enemy mana explicitly by adding mana bars or remove the access to this information from enemy HUD.

Diabolic
01-26-2012, 02:22 PM
Are u f*****g serious ? U must be a lol player indeed.You must be a guy that has no idea about me indeed.

If you're talking about something based on something else, you must have the base information to continue talking. I'm just verifying who are those "pro" players. I'm getting a public information from a public tournament instead. Looks like this world has only around 100~150 pro players.

So pitiful.

hcolyle
01-26-2012, 02:37 PM
ABSOLUTELY NO

This would be huge nerf on illusions, you also couldnt be able to fake cast with heroes like kunkka, this also makes the game easier and by having manabars on dota1 this was considered as cheating so why would they implement this on dota2.

Some smartass is going to ask for sure how this is going to nerf illusions? Well, if enigma stuns you out from your screen (you can see which one of the three casted the stun) you can easily see that from the manabars. "Oh well you can make illusion work that they all loose mana" And then you cant check mana by klicking on the illusions to see which one is the real one. And yeh, lets make magina a bit easier shall we?

This lowers the skillcap and this isnt needed. You can go play HoN or LoL(i quess it has manabars?) if you want those manabars of yours.. I think enabling manabars just isnt needed, you better learn to lose controll of your hero to check your enemys mana.

AP just said in his post pretty much why this SHOULD NOT be added... Yeh make the game a bit more easier... why not just remove denying?? Because its unfair is someone denies the shit out from you QQ more..

hcolyle
01-26-2012, 02:40 PM
I'll ask few questions.

- Who are these "pro" players?
- Selected by whom?
- You sure it's not WC3 engine problem? Since WC3 never had mana bars naturally and there was no way to make it look natural and elegant and it always needed lots of vJass coding.
- Where the hell you got the exact decision of "DotA community" while there are many threads on many boards about this issue?

Double post here we go, but there was some custom games where manbars were on and there also are punch of hax which enable manabars, and enabling manabars by using some program wasnt allowed in ANY inhouse, gather, etc league.

BRIKHOUS
01-26-2012, 02:55 PM
Not showing mana bars really does not accomplish much at all. Currently, it creates a one-sided system which rewards long-time players and represents another bar to new players. DotA 2 will have a higher skill cap than other MOBAs and will also require players to memorize more data - more unique skills means more that must be remembered. Back to how this current system rewards players who have played for a long time - any player who is experienced with a given hero in this game will have a good idea of what that hero can and cannot do in terms of burst in lane. For example, I know that unless tiny has some int stat boosting items, he cannot use his stun and toss at level 2, because he does not have enough mana to do so. New players will have no idea. They could, however, if mana were available. Hiding mana bars does not result in a more skill testing situation. In general, the more information available, the more choices a player must make. The more choices a player must make, the more chances that player has to screw up. The more correct choices made, the more skill a player is demonstrating. The more information, the more skill required. In other words, the game will require less ridiculous memorization to lane successfully, and more skill based decisions.

OrangeSky
01-26-2012, 03:04 PM
^It has nothing to do with skills, read the other 18 pages please. People have presented tons of examples of why mana bars shouldn't exist. Why should you have access to this kind of private information? Do you have access to cooldown status, gold or skill lvl?

Sol Invictus
01-26-2012, 04:23 PM
Back to how this current system rewards players who have played for a long time - any player who is experienced with a given hero in this game will have a good idea of what that hero can and cannot do in terms of burst in lane. For example, I know that unless tiny has some int stat boosting items, he cannot use his stun and toss at level 2, because he does not have enough mana to do so. New players will have no idea. They could, however, if mana were available.
I'd say this is a bad example. Adding mana bars won't change anything in this situation. Players would still need to know the mana cost of Tiny's skills in order to know whether he has mana or not.

mk07ki
01-26-2012, 04:31 PM
ABSOLUTELY NO

This would be huge nerf on illusions, you also couldnt be able to fake cast with heroes like kunkka, this also makes the game easier and by having manabars on dota1 this was considered as cheating so why would they implement this on dota2.

Some smartass is going to ask for sure how this is going to nerf illusions? Well, if enigma stuns you out from your screen (you can see which one of the three casted the stun) you can easily see that from the manabars. "Oh well you can make illusion work that they all loose mana" And then you cant check mana by klicking on the illusions to see which one is the real one. And yeh, lets make magina a bit easier shall we?

This lowers the skillcap and this isnt needed. You can go play HoN or LoL(i quess it has manabars?) if you want those manabars of yours.. I think enabling manabars just isnt needed, you better learn to lose controll of your hero to check your enemys mana.

AP just said in his post pretty much why this SHOULD NOT be added... Yeh make the game a bit more easier... why not just remove denying?? Because its unfair is someone denies the shit out from you QQ more..
Shame nobody plays Kunkka and soon enough nobody will care about AM.

Sol Invictus
01-26-2012, 04:38 PM
Shame nobody plays Kunkka and soon enough nobody will care about AM.
Your completely unsupported assertion blatantly failed to refute his legitimate argument in any way. Good job!

mk07ki
01-26-2012, 04:49 PM
Your completely unsupported assertion blatantly failed to refute his legitimate argument in any way. Good job!
How it is unsupported when pretty much nobody plays Kunkka and there's already some files for Lycan and OD? Not to mention, it's not a legitimate argument since what he described (making illusions lose mana) would add some more depth to illusions, you'd have to judge which one is the real one by their behaviour, this would also encourage people to manage their illusions more. Oh, and his example only applies to when that happens off screen, I'm sure it'll happen every game /sarcasm.

Sol Invictus
01-26-2012, 04:57 PM
How it is unsupported when pretty much nobody plays Kunkka
If no one plays Kunkka then why don't they just take him out of the game? Saying nobody plays any certain hero is downright false. The players who do want to play Kunkka or randomly get him will care about game changes that affect this hero. (Same for other heroes.)


and there's already some files for Lycan and OD?
Because the existence of these heroes means Anti-Mage will disappear, right? Obviously all players play perfectly and it is impossible to ever win against a counterpick.


Not to mention, it's not a legitimate argument since what he described (making illusions lose mana) would add some more depth to illusions, you'd have to judge which one is the real one by their behaviour, this would also encourage people to manage their illusions more.
The same is true if mana bars are not shown, so this doesn't accomplish anything.


Oh, and his example only applies to when that happens off screen, I'm sure it'll happen every game /sarcasm.
It doesn't need to be something that happens every game to be a concern.

mk07ki
01-26-2012, 05:21 PM
If no one plays Kunkka then why don't they just take him out of the game? Saying nobody plays any certain hero is downright false. The players who do want to play Kunkka or randomly get him will care about game changes that affect this hero. (Same for other heroes.)
I think, you missed my point. A few heroes (that might not even be in a game), should not affect the UI for everyone. People will argue that manabars will turn Dota 2 into LoL, but it is actually true if it'll pick up the pace of the game? Because LoL is a lot slower than DotA or Dota 2, and this is one of the main differences between the games, so it's quite the opposite.

idom86
01-26-2012, 05:29 PM
Manabars would suck hard!
Learn to play without and dont spam this Forum.
And stop try to make this game LoL or Hon like.
Noone stops u when u wanna play those games...

Cant somebody close this sencless thread since noone but the bad players try to implement manabars

Sol Invictus
01-26-2012, 05:51 PM
I think, you missed my point. A few heroes (that might not even be in a game), should not affect the UI for everyone.
Why should some heroes receive an indirect nerf, upsetting the balance of the game, just to implement an unnecessary UI change? It takes one click to select an enemy hero and view their mana; that is not difficult to do at all, even for new players. Especially since right-clicking automatically selects your hero again. The trouble that new players might experience is that they don't know how much a hero's skills cost, so they can't appropriately analyze how much a hero can do at its current mana level. It has nothing to do with how accessible that information is; the extra time taken to click on the enemy is unrelated to playing skill.


People will argue that manabars will turn Dota 2 into LoL, but it is actually true if it'll pick up the pace of the game? Because LoL is a lot slower than DotA or Dota 2, and this is one of the main differences between the games, so it's quite the opposite.
A UI change should not be affecting such a major gameplay element as the pace of the game.

PimpingPanda
01-26-2012, 06:14 PM
-1 if u can't click and c the mana then i can't help u

PimpingPanda
01-26-2012, 06:16 PM
^It has nothing to do with skills, read the other 18 pages please. People have presented tons of examples of why mana bars shouldn't exist. Why should you have access to this kind of private information? Do you have access to cooldown status, gold or skill lvl?

agree.

mk07ki
01-26-2012, 06:19 PM
Why should some heroes receive an indirect nerf, upsetting the balance of the game, just to implement an unnecessary UI change?
I'm pretty sure people already answered that one. The only thing I can add, I play and enjoy the game the way it is, but it doesn't mean that I agree with everything in it.


A UI change should not be affecting such a major gameplay element as the pace of the game.
Well, it already does.

Kautzman
01-26-2012, 07:31 PM
^It has nothing to do with skills, read the other 18 pages please. People have presented tons of examples of why mana bars shouldn't exist. Why should you have access to this kind of private information? Do you have access to cooldown status, gold or skill lvl?

The other 18 pages contain a net total of zero real arguments against their implementation and are full of people saying "read this other post", followed by something stupid, like maybe trying to draw a parallel from mana bars to completely unrelated information, using bad examples. Some of them are dense enough to even try suggest that being able to quantify 'skill' is something you can do.

Point to me to one argument ever against the inclusion of mana bars. I've read the 'it changes the way people approach scenario 'x' ' argument and I've entertained it and found it rather invalid and have also discussed to death why it's not a legitimate argument. If you can point to anyone post ever, on any forum that has erected a better argument than that, I would be impressed.

Before you decide to spew forth some stupid, I have some recommended reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

Edit: Oh, The post below this one is also a fantastic example of the level of discourse that occurs among the opponents of overhead mana bars!

diAz
01-26-2012, 07:38 PM
-1.

vladhood
01-26-2012, 08:21 PM
lol time to lock this thread too.

Sol Invictus
01-26-2012, 08:29 PM
Why should you have access to this kind of private information? Do you have access to cooldown status, gold or skill lvl?
^ Seems like a good question to me.


Before you decide to spew forth some stupid, I have some recommended reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
Why, thank you for enlightening me, good sir! Like every other member of this forum (except for you, of course), I am a total idiot whose knowledge is infinitely inferior to yours. I greatly appreciate your attempt to save me from my own ignorance! Maybe someday I can become smart enough to be an asshole too!

Irrelevante
01-26-2012, 09:53 PM
^It has nothing to do with skills, read the other 18 pages please. People have presented tons of examples of why mana bars shouldn't exist. Why should you have access to this kind of private information? Do you have access to cooldown status, gold or skill lvl?

In the same manner I could ask why do we have access to their health or, more importantly, their items when clicking their hero.


Why, thank you for enlightening me, good sir! Like every other member of this forum (except for you, of course), I am a total idiot whose knowledge is infinitely inferior to yours. I greatly appreciate your attempt to save me from my own ignorance! Maybe someday I can become smart enough to be an asshole too!

I'll take a shot to enlighten you as well. Since you seem to have missed his point by miles while still managing to act like quite the asshole.


Why should some heroes receive an indirect nerf, upsetting the balance of the game, just to implement an unnecessary UI change? It takes one click to select an enemy hero and view their mana; that is not difficult to do at all, even for new players. Especially since right-clicking automatically selects your hero again. The trouble that new players might experience is that they don't know how much a hero's skills cost, so they can't appropriately analyze how much a hero can do at its current mana level. It has nothing to do with how accessible that information is; the extra time taken to click on the enemy is unrelated to playing skill.

You claim manabars would indirectly nerf some heroes and upset the game balance. For the sake of argument, let's consider that as true. The fallacy on your argument is: If it is indeed gamebreaking to know such information, why hasn't it broken the game already when we're 1 click away from such information? Why aren't we getting countless threads asking for mana to be hidden from the enemy? (Aside from the one which was made in spite of all the negative "feedback" this thread has recieved) Since we haven't, I'll have to dismiss your claim as false. Manabars won't nerf a thing nor shift the balance of the game. If anything, it would just level down the learning curve a bit and, for a game with such a steep learning curve, it won't even be that bad.

XxpeddyxX
01-26-2012, 10:50 PM
This is Dota 2 not LoL 2

Kautzman
01-26-2012, 11:16 PM
^ Seems like a good question to me.


Why, thank you for enlightening me, good sir! Like every other member of this forum (except for you, of course), I am a total idiot whose knowledge is infinitely inferior to yours. I greatly appreciate your attempt to save me from my own ignorance! Maybe someday I can become smart enough to be an asshole too!

Because there hasn't been a 128 page thread in the past of posts like "This is dota, not lol/Hon" and "It's always been like that, why change it?"

Edit: ^^^ My goodness, speak of the devil!

Sol Invictus
01-26-2012, 11:24 PM
In the same manner I could ask why do we have access to their health
Because, as I think is generally agreed, health is the most important attribute of a hero to view. It would indisputably be more inconvenient to play without health bars than without mana bars or any other information.


or, more importantly, their items when clicking their hero.
IMO, this goes against having enemy mana bars. Currently, both enemy items and mana require you to click on the hero to view them. If you think mana bars should be shown on enemies, do you also think you should be, for instance, notified of what items enemies purchase?


I'll take a shot to enlighten you as well. Since you seem to have missed his point by miles while still managing to act like quite the asshole.
I was not responding to his post as a whole. Rather, I found the arrogance of that particular excerpt (assuming that others will "spew forth some stupid" and a posting of links for no other reason than to be condescending) irritating and reacted strongly. I apologize for any perceived offense.


You claim manabars would indirectly nerf some heroes and upset the game balance. For the sake of argument, let's consider that as true. The fallacy on your argument is: If it is indeed gamebreaking to know such information, why hasn't it broken the game already when we're 1 click away from such information? Why aren't we getting countless threads asking for mana to be hidden from the enemy? (Aside from the one which was made in spite of all the negative "feedback" this thread has recieved) Since we haven't, I'll have to dismiss your claim as false.
As it is, people often don't seek out that information that is only "1 click away" because 1) in the case of illusions, there are many units to check, and 2) in such situations, the player may not think it's necessary to check enemy mana (i.e. he doesn't expect the player to fake casting a spell). However, the addition of mana bars would shove this information into the player's face, making such mindgames impossible.


Manabars won't nerf a thing nor shift the balance of the game. If anything, it would just level down the learning curve a bit and, for a game with such a steep learning curve, it won't even be that bad.
I fail to see how mana bars would help new players any more than it would help anyone else. It's not as if it's harder for a new player to click an enemy than for an experienced player. Not to mention that new players may still not be familiar with how to interpret the information - how much mana heroes need for their spells and what they can do with their mana. So adding mana bars doesn't really affect the learning curve at all.

Kaedy92
01-26-2012, 11:47 PM
i can imagine situations like this if manabar gets put up for enemy heroes:
1.OMG kunkka uses torrent!
2.OMG its a fake torrent!
3.LOLOL allyourmanabelongtome *ulties and people die*.
4.OMG that guy has full mana dont gank him guys! he will win ggwp.

contrary to what the game currently is, people would:
1.Think twice before ganking.
2.Think twice before wasting AM's ulti.
3.Play mind games with each other.

The point is, getting manabar on every heroes makes the game very much predictable, and no fun at all.
Having them on ally heroes only would serve a better purpose i.e coordinating ganks and stocking which spells to use AND the timing to use arcane boots.
People keep on pointing this is not LoL because it is not. Deal with it.
I'd vote for it if it shows real benefit to the game, but this idea just isnt one of it.

TL;DR version: this gets rid of mind games. and mind games are a HUGE part of dota learning curve.

Diabolic
01-26-2012, 11:47 PM
Double post here we go, but there was some custom games where manbars were on and there also are punch of hax which enable manabars, and enabling manabars by using some program wasnt allowed in ANY inhouse, gather, etc league.Orly? I was talking without absolutely no idea wtf I'm saying.

I already know that, this is also another thing thats why WC3 never had mana bars. IT HAD TO BE A HACK. Your argument supports mine. Nothing else.

Kaedy92
01-26-2012, 11:48 PM
i can imagine situations like this if manabar gets put up for enemy heroes:
1.OMG kunkka uses torrent!
2.OMG its a fake torrent!
3.LOLOL allyourmanabelongtome *ulties and people die*.
4.OMG that guy has full mana dont gank him guys! he will win ggwp.

contrary to what the game currently is, people would:
1.Think twice before ganking.
2.Think twice before wasting AM's ulti.
3.Play mind games with each other.

The point is, getting manabar on every heroes makes the game very much predictable, and no fun at all.
Having them on ally heroes only would serve a better purpose i.e coordinating ganks and stocking which spells to use AND the timing to use arcane boots.
People keep on pointing this is not LoL because it is not. Deal with it.
I'd vote for it if it shows real benefit to the game, but this idea just isnt one of it.

TL;DR version: this gets rid of mind games. and mind games are a HUGE part of dota learning curve.

Olik
01-27-2012, 04:01 AM
+1, I personally don't like seeing HUD things being involved with gameplay. All information that is available should be readily available.
Then just buff Magina (or whatever hero X you think needs a buff/nerf after the change), I don't see why heroes shouldn't adapt to an evolving game like everything else.
Main thing being that the core game doesn't stay behind where convoluted meta details are affecting gameplay more than actual skill.

OrangeSky
01-27-2012, 06:10 AM
The other 18 pages contain a net total of zero real arguments against their implementation and are full of people saying "read this other post", followed by something stupid, like maybe trying to draw a parallel from mana bars to completely unrelated information, using bad examples. Some of them are dense enough to even try suggest that being able to quantify 'skill' is something you can do.

Point to me to one argument ever against the inclusion of mana bars. I've read the 'it changes the way people approach scenario 'x' ' argument and I've entertained it and found it rather invalid and have also discussed to death why it's not a legitimate argument. If you can point to anyone post ever, on any forum that has erected a better argument than that, I would be impressed.

Before you decide to spew forth some stupid, I have some recommended reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

Edit: Oh, The post below this one is also a fantastic example of the level of discourse that occurs among the opponents of overhead mana bars!

Why so serious? Really, are you sending me a link about Fallacy on wikipedia? You must be a fanatic atheist accostumed to initiate useless flame wars on forums against illiterate people. I bet you didn't read anything more than 2 pages on this thread. If I'm saying 'read the other post' it is because I don't want to repeat myself - or repeat what others have already said - thousands and thousands of times everytime a new reader join this discussion.

Now, back to the point, I said I didn't want mana bars, but it's ok for me if they insert it in the game. Now what really bugs me is the current way mana is displayed. You have to click on the enemy to know how much mana he's got. I mean, why hide this information? You should, IMO, either completely display it through mana bars or fully remove it from enemy HUD so you can't ever know how much mana he currently has. I prefer latter option though.

Sol Invictus
01-27-2012, 12:43 PM
+1, I personally don't like seeing HUD things being involved with gameplay. All information that is available should be readily available.
Then just buff Magina (or whatever hero X you think needs a buff/nerf after the change), I don't see why heroes shouldn't adapt to an evolving game like everything else.
Simply increasing his stats won't work. The change would not affect the heroes, but rather how they are played. And just buffing their stats will create even more imbalance instead of fix it.


Main thing being that the core game doesn't stay behind where convoluted meta details are affecting gameplay more than actual skill.
IMO, it does require skill to be able to quickly check and analyze enemies' mana especially in high-action situations.

vladhood
01-27-2012, 01:15 PM
i'm surprised people that have been reading this forum for over a week still haven't learned to scroll past kautzmans posts

Pandamonium
01-28-2012, 06:03 AM
there are things in the game like channeling bars, a tooltip help for invokers spells, real time hp values over the head of your hero, indicators on how long summoned units will last.. but no manabars? wtf...

Diabolic
01-28-2012, 06:10 AM
there are things in the game like channeling bars, a tooltip help for invokers spells, real time hp values over the head of your hero, indicators on how long summoned units will last.. but no manabars? wtf...NO! It'll make the game quadrople times easier!!!

OrangeSky
01-28-2012, 06:45 AM
It has nothing to do with game being easier ffs, can you comprehend that this would change a lot of scenarios in the game?

REDWUT
01-28-2012, 07:44 AM
It would do Magina's work much easier ^^

Whaitiri
01-28-2012, 06:13 PM
Holy shit you can see the enemies mana by clicking on them. Does this really need 23 pages of discussion? You're asking for something already in the game, you just want it waved in front of your face so you don't have to "work" (click the enemy hero once) for it. Jesus christ.

Pandamonium
01-29-2012, 07:01 AM
It would do Magina's work much easier ^^

as posted several times before, this is not a valid argument against mana bars

PatchYourselfUp
01-29-2012, 03:40 PM
As a new player, I'm falling in love with the game as is. Please do not add mana-bars onto the enemy team. It does affect gameplay.

Kautzman
01-29-2012, 11:58 PM
Please do not add mana-bars onto the enemy team. It does affect gameplay.

And you opposed to mana bars because why?

PatchYourselfUp
01-30-2012, 01:26 AM
And you opposed to mana bars because why?

Because the reaction time for someone rushing at you is split second. If you see someone rushing at you, and you're over-extended, the average player tends to run. However, this could be used in advantage for the other player, to scare off the other player even if they have no mana. It's like waving an unloaded gun at the enemy. It's fun. That fun would be taken away if you just make it visible to the enemy.

MoonElf
01-30-2012, 01:30 AM
100% agree with you, destroying the game with this kind of suggestions its f sad.:(

PatchYourselfUp
01-30-2012, 02:18 AM
These suggestions pop up because it makes sense. The reason they keep coming is because the effect such a logical application would bring is too subtle to be clearly understood.

From what I've seen is that DotA's skill relies on two things: knowledge of the enemy along with a proper response, and manipulation of game mechanics. Animation-canceling, stacking, and working on a limited "instant info" on enemies plays into what makes DotA fun. It all contributes to it's pacing and speed, and changing things that can change that will only hurt it in the long run.

Pandamonium
01-30-2012, 05:19 AM
As a new player, I'm falling in love with the game as is. Please do not add mana-bars onto the enemy team. It does affect gameplay.

as you said yourself, you are a new player and therefore cannot judge if it affects gameplay..

Ragekeeper
01-30-2012, 05:45 AM
I never thought this thread would accelerate this fast and flame up this much in such a short time.


It is indeed really hard to discuss things with Dota extremists.


Clicking on heroes to see what their mana is not something that is pro or not, everyone does it. The big thing that makes you pro is what you do in response to recieving that information.
Now cuase of this, it is only an obstacle on the road, having to click on heroes just to see manabars. What this change will do, will make the general game a little more simplestic, but just cuase i got more simplestic doesn't mean it got any easier. Adding this would also have a positive effect on the learning curve that is so harsh and unforgiving in DotA, giving new players an easier time learning the game.

A top priority for Valve is to relieve it as much as possible for new players to learn the game, in other games this is not a problem, but it is an issue that needs to be dealt with in the best way possible.

I know this cuase i am recruiting 2 friends of mine (doing good so far). Tho they are lucky to have me, learning DotA yourself is unusally hard (compared to other genres & games). Without me they would not play the game, but with my aid they are starting to get into it.


This is a forum, being a subjective insulter without any objective arguements at all leads, nowhere really, only downwards. Keep that in mind next time you post please.

vladhood
01-30-2012, 07:12 AM
from the same person who posted http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=16571

it's pretty clear you have minimal experience with dota. your anecdotal evidence is pretty moot.

also valve and icefrog said plenty of times they aren't interested in dumbing the game down in favor of 'accessibility' but would rather players have the right tools to learn properly. so why keep spamming the forums with this garbage?

Gen3sis
01-30-2012, 07:56 AM
heh tnx for this link ^^

pretty much obvious that he doesn't know what dota even is, so no point reading any of his ''arguments''

obro
01-30-2012, 08:27 AM
Adding mana bars to enemy heroes would make casters weaker. Why? You could automatically see their mana pool and instantly decide can you kill them or not. There would be no mind games at all. Why would you want to do that?

Etheras
01-30-2012, 09:09 AM
Have to disagree, love the fact that only your teams mana is visible, makes it harder to make quick decisions based on enemies mana and adds to the gradual depth of the game, per say : when you are a newb the enemy having mana is non of your business cause it's mainly a burst war, but as you gradually get better these kinds of things make or break your play, hence should put some effort to it.

Sol Invictus
01-30-2012, 09:36 AM
Clicking on heroes to see what their mana is not something that is pro or not, everyone does it. The big thing that makes you pro is what you do in response to recieving that information.
While it might not necessarily make someone "pro," it DOES require a certain degree of mechanical skill to quickly check enemies' mana, and that would disappear if mana bars were shown overhead.


Adding this would also have a positive effect on the learning curve that is so harsh and unforgiving in DotA, giving new players an easier time learning the game.
It would not affect the learning curve. You just said "everyone does it," so how does clicking on enemies to see their mana affect new players differently from experienced players? New players would still be unfamiliar with how to interpret the information (knowing what spells an enemy can cast). Adding overhead mana bars would just make the game easier for everyone.

Also I don't see why you even want to make the learning curve easier. It may be harder for new players at first, but it is a lot more satisfying once you become more proficient. This kind of learning curve is not necessarily superior to an easier one, but it is fundamental to Dota.


A top priority for Valve is to relieve it as much as possible for new players to learn the game, in other games this is not a problem, but it is an issue that needs to be dealt with in the best way possible.

I know this cuase i am recruiting 2 friends of mine (doing good so far). Tho they are lucky to have me, learning DotA yourself is unusally hard (compared to other genres & games). Without me they would not play the game, but with my aid they are starting to get into it.
Again, implementing overhead mana bars only increases the amount of technical skill required, which affects old and new players equally. Does not make the game easier just for new players.

rtdm
01-30-2012, 01:57 PM
PLEASE, close and ban who start a new thread about this.

hsdvo
01-30-2012, 03:19 PM
sage

PatchYourselfUp
01-30-2012, 04:38 PM
as you said yourself, you are a new player and therefore cannot judge if it affects gameplay..

Just because I've only played about 80 or so games doesn't mean I can't make observations and rational opinions.

BRIKHOUS
01-30-2012, 07:52 PM
I'd say this is a bad example. Adding mana bars won't change anything in this situation. Players would still need to know the mana cost of Tiny's skills in order to know whether he has mana or not.

Well, I can respond to this simply by saying that if the mana bars are visible, simply watching how much mana it takes for tiny to do one spell can give you an idea as to what sort of burst he is capable of doing.

PimpingPanda
01-30-2012, 11:05 PM
Can't we just close this now? How many time do we have to keep talking about this?

Ragekeeper
01-31-2012, 12:51 AM
heh tnx for this link ^^

pretty much obvious that he doesn't know what dota even is, so no point reading any of his ''arguments''

This is the most dickheadish thing i've seen so far in the dev Dota 2 forum. A forum is a place where can ask about things you don't completetly understand too. A simple thing i wonderd about and i wanted answers. And it should defiently not be an excuse of not reading arguements that were not read becuase of lazyness. You were very ignorant in this post Gen3sis, i hope your not like that elsewhere.


Can't we just close this now? How many time do we have to keep talking about this?

I don't know, i made this thread before they closed the topic in the MISC section. This thread, is not a banable offence, it was made just a few days before the topic was closed in the MISC section.

The admins can close the thread whenever they want too, but for some reason they haven't. I don't know why, but they haven't closed the thread yet. They should since the most of the people here (old school Dota players) does not have a friendly face and are not open-minded for objectivity & arguements.

Shaella
01-31-2012, 01:38 AM
Oh boy, another one of these

Pandamonium
01-31-2012, 04:42 PM
as op said, there are far too many dota elitists on these forums to discuss things like this in an openminded way... hope valve implements it anyway.

HMAN911
01-31-2012, 06:00 PM
Make dota war not forum war.

idom86
01-31-2012, 06:43 PM
as op said, there are far too many dota elitists on these forums to discuss things like this in an openminded way... hope valve implements it anyway.

Dont u think that a Dotaplayer with 7 or more years exp has a better idea of the game than a new player?
why in the hell do u think its not openminded what they say...

There is a reason why ppl dont want this manabars, and it was pointed out alot in this thread.
Maybe listen to older players and dont repeat any bullshit u saw somewhere in those casual games..

so far
close this thread
there wont be manabars at all since it has been tested alrdy

Kautzman
01-31-2012, 11:16 PM
Dont u think that a Dotaplayer with 7 or more years exp has a better idea of the game than a new player?
why in the hell do u think its not openminded what they say...

There is a reason why ppl dont want this manabars, and it was pointed out alot in this thread.
Maybe listen to older players and dont repeat any bullshit u saw somewhere in those casual games..

so far
close this thread
there wont be manabars at all since it has been tested alrdy

Hi.

I've been playing this game for almost seven years. There are people who have played this game for much less time than I and are much better. My 'seniority' has no bearing on the validity of my opinions. In fact, philosophy would call it a logical fallacy (An argument from Age) to assume that someone who has more experience automatically has a more valid opinion.

I also enjoy how this specific subset of the community refuses to actually type out their own arguments against mana bars, instead, citing other points 'pointed out alot in this thread', which may or may not exist. This is probably because these people don't actually have an argument either way, but would rather not actually have things changed just because.

Anyway, I've been playing this game for a long time. I think mana bars would be a positive change. I've personally actually written up quite a lot about my thoughts on it and if you were curious, you could dig through my post history on related topics.

Diabolic
02-01-2012, 01:57 AM
Hi.

I've been playing this game for almost seven years. There are people who have played this game for much less time than I and are much better. My 'seniority' has no bearing on the validity of my opinions. In fact, philosophy would call it a logical fallacy (An argument from Age) to assume that someone who has more experience automatically has a more valid opinion.

I also enjoy how this specific subset of the community refuses to actually type out their own arguments against mana bars, instead, citing other points 'pointed out alot in this thread', which may or may not exist. This is probably because these people don't actually have an argument either way, but would rather not actually have things changed just because.

Anyway, I've been playing this game for a long time. I think mana bars would be a positive change. I've personally actually written up quite a lot about my thoughts on it and if you were curious, you could dig through my post history on related topics.
Hi,

I'm another guy who plays this game for almost seven years at the moment. I approve this post completely.

Signed, Diabolic.

Sol Invictus
02-01-2012, 07:13 AM
I also enjoy how this specific subset of the community refuses to actually type out their own arguments against mana bars, instead, citing other points 'pointed out alot in this thread', which may or may not exist. This is probably because these people don't actually have an argument either way, but would rather not actually have things changed just because.
It is a biased assumption to claim that these people are not actually referring to anything. Have you ever tried asking them what posts they're referring to, or looking for them yourself? If so, and if you did not find any such posts, then you can say they have no argument. Otherwise, it is a completely unfounded statement.

(Especially since you are asking others to do the same: "I've personally actually written up quite a lot about my thoughts on it and if you were curious, you could dig through my post history on related topics.")

Furthermore, those of us who oppose mana bars and have made arguments are largely ignored as people instead focus on the easier targets who really do lack arguments...