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Thread: [Confirmed] Negative armor has a different effect in DotA2 in comparison to Dota1

  1. #1
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    [Confirmed] Negative armor has a different effect in DotA2 in comparison to Dota1

    According to the mechanics area on playdota.com when having negative armor the following formula is used to calculate the increased damage:
    Code:
    1 - 0.94 ^ (-armor)
    with a cap for negative armor of -20. This results in a maximum of 71% increased damage through negative armor.

    DotA2 whatsoever seems to use a different coefficient than 0.94 also it seems it is not capped to -20. I did some quick tests with Ogre Magi on level 25 with 6 hots (12 armor) and several items and spells to reduce its armor (melt, dazzle ult, venge wave, slaradar ult, desolator, medalion and AC) resulting in negative armor values of around -44. So in total 12 - 44 = -32. This should result in -71%! The tooltip showed 65% extra damage, so there must be something wrong (or of course playdota.com is wrong on that!)
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    Basic Member shalafi's Avatar
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    Just a wild guess, but it looks like the minimum armour cap (at least in the tooltip) is base armor -20.

    Ogre magi has a base armor of 3 + 14 agi /7 ~= 5. So according to my guess, -17 armor would be his minimum, which corresponds to 65.072% increased damage.

    You should try to hit him and look at the damage log, to check that it corresponds the tooltip.

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    So I did some smaller research on this and thing it really is a bug! I again tested with Templar Assasin against a Ogre Magi. Debuffs were: AC, Desolator, Slardar Ult and Medalion of courage. Below is my documenation and the formulas I used.
    And yes shalafi you are right, when I substract -20 (cap) from the base armor I end up at the 65.072%!

    Ogre base armor:
    2.96

    Ogre agi total:
    51+20

    Armor on Hero according to stats panel:
    12

    Armor on hero calculated from stats:
    2.96 + ((14+(25*1.55)+20)/7) = 13.3528571
    http://goo.gl/kEHzT

    Minus Armor:
    -5 AC
    -6 Desolator
    -6 Medalion
    -16 Slardar Ultimate (level 3)

    Armor total shown by stats panel:
    12-33

    Armor total calculate from stats
    2.96 + ((14+(25*1.55)+20)/7) + (-5 - 6 -6 -16) = -19.6471429
    http://goo.gl/StfuE

    Damage gain shown:
    54%

    Damage gain expected:
    (1-0.94^(-((2.96 + ((14+(25*1.55)+20)/7)) + (-5 - 6 -6 -16)))) = 0.703490167
    http://goo.gl/GxemR

    Lanaya damage:
    140+60

    Damage expected with "propper" damage gain through negative armor:
    (140+60) * (1 + (1-0.94^(-((2.96 + ((14+(25*1.55)+20)/7)) + (-5 - 6 -6 -16))))) = 340.698033
    http://goo.gl/Kxa95

    Damage expected with implemented damage gain through negative armor:
    (140+60) * 1.54 = 308
    http://goo.gl/8UukC

    Damage dealed according to log:
    [22:36.45] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 310 damage (8771->8461).
    [22:37.22] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 310 damage (8469->8159).
    [22:37.85] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 309 damage (8164->7855).
    [22:38.42] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 310 damage (7861->7551).
    [22:39.12] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 312 damage (7559->7247).
    [22:39.75] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 304 damage (7252->6948).
    [22:40.42] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 307 damage (6956->6649).
    [22:41.05] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 307 damage (6654->6347).
    [22:41.68] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 313 damage (6353->6040).

    On a side note and not sure if this is a bug, intentional and how it is with this in dota1:
    If using desolator the debuf actually is applied before the projectiles hit the target! This means the first attack already has the additional damage. Same for the meld debuff.
    Last edited by unkie; 07-20-2012 at 01:36 PM.

  4. #4
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    Attached a screenshot of ogremagis statsboard.
    I also did some testing on dota1. There it is 340 dmg / 71% dmg gain.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by unkie; 07-20-2012 at 11:18 AM.

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    Can anyone please change this to confirmed? Also should be added to the sticky imho.

  6. #6
    Basic Member iliveoncaffiene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unkie
    On a side note and not sure if this is a bug, intentional and how it is with this in dota1:
    If using desolator the debuf actually is applied before the projectiles hit the target! This means the first attack already has the additional damage. Same for the meld debuff.
    Almost 100% positive this was actually even fixed in WC3, and was either bugfixed once or an intended change in DotA 2.

    OT:
    This seems like a mechanics bug - and the argument should not be on whether there should/shouldn't be a cap, but whether the -20 cap should factor in base armor (level 1 armor) or not.

  7. #7
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    Well if the cap is based on the level 1 armor it is different on each hero, making the game unnatrual hard because you have to consider the base armor (not the real level 1 armor, the armor at level 1 if you dont have any agility!) of your enemies if you want to work with -armor rather than with +damage!

  8. #8
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    k, adding to sticky.
    just to be sure, can you quickly list the heroes, that still have false armor values?
    Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

    Contributions i'd like to highlight:
    My Suggestion: Coaching System
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  9. #9
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    Well I at first thought it might be related to the base armor of the hero but it seems not to. For all heroes I tested I had the same wrong offset regarding the +dmg through negative armor, and they all have different base armor (except for Axe and Anti-Mage).
    From the looks (see attachment) there is no cap for negative armor. (also dazzles ultimate stacks! )
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by unkie; 07-23-2012 at 01:39 PM.

  10. #10
    Basic Member Synth's Avatar
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    Exclamation Damage Amplification from -armor is uncapped and Algorithm may be wrong.

    I would still care for a WC3 test of this, but this involves dota 2 mostly.

    It seems that the -20 armor & -71% damage amplification that was hardcoded in dota 1, Doesn't exist in dota 2. Not only is it visual, its also real it seems.
    Additionally, it seems that the (1-0.94^n) may be off by a bit.

    All taken from the post in the Brainstorming section.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synth View Post
    Huh. Always remembered it being +25% damage... Testing this now, and this possibly warrants a bug, since slardar with some massive -armor items, along with a dazzle, could destroy even PL with high armor exceedingly fast. Also going to see what the max damage amplification by unnatural means is, since the HIGHEST possible by one team alone is <-80.

    Ok, here it is.

    Damage with 8% resistance

    Damage with 38% resistance

    Maximum Amplification, about -800 armor, -97%. I've been hitting at about this point from now on.

    Hit w/o MoM at -97% resistance

    and then with.


    Using D*Crit*amp*MoM amp, which is 1926*4*1.97*1.3, and substituting/giving when needed.

    8% resist(.92 amplification)=7087.68 Very close to what is seen. No issues there.
    38% resist(.62 amplification)=4776.48 Also extremely close
    -97% resistance(1.97 amp)=15176.88 just under the 15220 seen.
    -97% resist with MoM amp=19729.944 also just under the amount seen.

    I think the damage amplification from -armor doesn't exist, nor is the exponential calculation of it correct.
    Post of the helpful person who also corrected my math and stumbled upon the possibility of the algorithm being wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyn-Ryder View Post
    Try doing it with less variables? Also MoM is 1.3 times, not 1.25 times. Perhaps without the MoM active for one trial, to see if that's causing the issues or it is indeed just the armour calc?

    I did a few tests on MoM before and found that the only bug with it was with Dispersion (and perhaps other pseudo-evasions) where it wasn't multiplied correctly, as in this thread.

    Alright. Actually figured it out, there's no cap on armour, and if you use 1.95 * 1.3 * 4 = 10.14 modifier, so that equals 19530 damage, perhaps just rounding + hero damage fluctuating leading to it being slightly different.

    The bug is: Hero -armour is not capped.

    EDIT:

    also I have no idea why it's "capping" at 94% increased damage (1 - 0.94^n) where n is the absolute value of your negative armour... It should be at +100% damage at -315 armour... Perhaps negative armour is calculated incorrectly? Probably worth an investigation.

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