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mindfaQ
03-16-2012, 05:04 PM
Hello. I think many players are aware of the fact that the map is a bit smaller and heroes are visually bigger than in WC3. Lately professional players and commentators pointed it out as well, like Puppey, KuroKy and Slesh.

I thought I do some exemplary measurements on this matter, and compare movement times from point A -> B between Dota 2 and Warcraft 3 DotA. I took Kunkka without Boots for every measurement, so the movementspeed would be 300. Germanstyle numbers.

Tier 3 (base tower) Sentinel to Tier 1 Tower Radiant/Sentinel @mid: 13,967 (Dota 2) vs 14,733 (DotA) seconds
Tier 3 (base tower) Sentinel to Tier 2 Tower Radiant/Sentinel @mid: 6,4 (Dota 2) vs 6,676 (DotA) seconds
Tier 3 (base tower) Sentinel to Tier 1 Tower Radiant/Sentinel @bot: 29,567 (Dota 2) vs 29,5 (DotA) seconds
running from bottom to top via River, starting at the ramp and finishing at the ramp: 44,533 (Dota 2) vs 47,133 (DotA) seconds
Tier 3 Sentinel mid to Tier 3 Scourge mid (creepblocks occured, creepblock was bigger in DotA than in Dota 2, corrected it a bit, but don't trust that measurement too much): 40,333 (Dota 2) vs around 42,267-42,767 seconds.

The differences:
The DotA map is 5,4% | 4,3% | -0,3% | 5,8% | 4,8% bigger, depending on the data point. The mean value would be 5% if we take out the outlier (which probably has something to do with different map layout... or I failed, although I don't know where something could have gone wrong there).

possible errors:
- slightly different map layout can lead to slightly different starting and end points between the Dota games.
- not exact facing of the hero -> some time needed for turning (tried to make him look towards the lane, so it should be a very minor point)

----

conclusion:
The Dota 2 map seems to be indeed smaller than the DotA map.
(The tower spacing at the bottom sentinel lane seems to be wider in Dota 2 compared to DotA)


effects on gameplay:
- roaming more effective
- tp usefulness is bigger the larger the map is (not saying tp is not useful in Dota 2)
- jungling more effective
-> balance gets altered, we don't want that as long as DotA and Dota 2 share the same skill and hero value balancing.

----

possible solution:
I thought of ways to solve the problem without needing to redesign the map in general:
adjust the length units. So to say scale them by 1/1,05, thats about 0,954. Ofc Valve needs to do many measurements to discover the best factor for this. Maybe they even come across mome more big layout differences like I noticed at the bottom lane tower spacing.

To make understandable what I mean.
Instead of 1 length units, heroes now would run 0,954 old length units (but still 1 length unit in the new system). -> Heroes will need longer to reach their destination, thats basically what consistency would dictate.
Spells that have a range of 100 units would have a range of 95,4 old length units (spells need to be scaled down a bit, but since they are 3d models and not some raster images, that should be no problem).

To evade the movement of heroes feeling slower and skill aoes feeling smaller, it would be possible to scale them down a bit (4,6% is not much). Same for creeps ofc.


So what are your thoughts on this?

twoplay
03-17-2012, 12:20 AM
So what are your thoughts on this?
Its good
to be this hard

@topic:
i often experience this inside a base, towers are firing from everywhere and nowhere in base your are invisible.
so +1

CvP
03-17-2012, 12:38 AM
That much difference is well within error margin/tolerance. If this changes the meta game (to some players), then they should uninstall dota2. Sounds harsh, but true.

And complaining about meta game when not all heroes are available yet...is kinda dumb.

thanatos_kod
03-17-2012, 02:46 AM
elitist talk right there OP, I would place my faith in Icefrog and Valve rather than "Pro" players opinions.

Players come and go, dota game does not.

Cocofang
03-17-2012, 03:33 AM
A big part of this stems from the improved pathing. DotA times could probably be faster if you do soem perfect manual running :D

mindfaQ
03-17-2012, 05:51 AM
@Cocofang: Walking in straight lines is not much of a pathing issue (I chose noncomplicated ways for measurements, so no obstacles where the hero needed to move around etc). If someone can measure the sizes directly via models/program code, that ofc would be perfect.

@CvP: not when many measurements all give the same results. I agree that 5 might not be enough, but the tendancy hints at it being a systematic difference rather than error margins (which can go in + and -, so mean should be around 0).

@thanatos_kod: You sound more elitist, discarding an eventually valid point without proper reasoning.

edit: will use the flying courier for next measurements. pathing shouldn't have influence on direct path.

Amraa
03-17-2012, 10:38 AM
Well the top left tavern spot is missing also the space with trees behind the fountain is missing, maybe it has something to do with that? the space behind the fountain is only used when pubstomping though.

thanatos_kod
03-17-2012, 10:57 AM
@mindfaq It's not a valid point you are making, just an opinion . I'm saying, take Dota2 as it is and play the game, too much comparison with Dota won't help dota2 .

They are not using WC3 Engine to build dota2 , its the source engine and a newer one at that. Improvements to the game are unavoidable, I am placing my faith in the developers to do what is right for the game, not on some so called pro players. After all, its only a personal opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs, does not mean that Dota2 has to change based on that.

If the map is smaller, so be it, lets try new meta game based on that, faster ganks , quicker gameplay why not?

If its not one's cup of tea then pick what suits you.

ClayMeow
03-17-2012, 11:12 AM
My stance on this matter can be found in my sig.

If you want things the way they are in DotA, go play DotA.

Amraa
03-17-2012, 11:21 AM
My stance on this matter can be found in my sig.

If you want things the way they are in DotA, go play DotA.

I see what you mean there, but the devs want to make this game as close as possible to dota, so I don't see the reason why they shouldn't be informed about these small differences. Maybe they'll care maybe not, it's up to them not you.

ClayMeow
03-17-2012, 11:29 AM
I just don't see why everything has to be copied exactly, like so many DotA elitists bark about on these forums. IceFrog has been heavily involved in the development of the game, it's not like Valve is conquering this on their own. I'd love to see a variety of maps added, regardless of what is in DotA, like a 2-lane 3v3 map.

mindfaQ
03-17-2012, 12:55 PM
@mindfaq It's not a valid point you are making, just an opinion . I'm saying, take Dota2 as it is and play the game, too much comparison with Dota won't help dota2 .
I am presenting numbers, numbers are not opinions. If you think the balancing influence is the discussion point of this thread, then I have to disappoint you, because it is the difference in map size. Also very nice that you get offended by my "opinion" but throw in nothing except your own opinion. I encouraged everyone to post his opinion, so it is good that you post your opinion, but stop insulting and maybe try to prove your opinion with facts next time, since that would really contribute to the discussion.

----

so I did some test again with the flying courier (starts facing at a degree of 45 (between 1 and 2 o'clock) for mid, and with 0 for bottom (3 o'clock))
all sentinel side
mid tier 3 -> tier 1: 11,933 (Dota 2) vs 12,667 (DotA) seconds
mid tier 3 -> tier 2: 5,1 (Dota 2) vs 5,833 (DotA) seconds (reason for large difference: in DotA the second tower is placed a bit more out of line than in Dota 2)
bottom tier 3 -> tier 1: 25,367 (Dota 2) vs 28,4 (DotA) seconds

differences: movement takes 5% | 14% | -0,5% longer than in Dota 2 to reach point B after starting at point A.

cant test the river section or tier 3 sentinel to tier 3 dire because the courier will get sniped by the tower(s).

Guess next time I'll test the time needed to fly between the tier 1 towers. Some other suggestions? Can ofc also try it with the hero, but there the influence of terrain characteristics and path finding would be more influential than the eventual mapsize-difference.

Mr.Evo
03-17-2012, 01:05 PM
Germanstyle numbers.

I lol'ed :D Greetings from Germany.

mindfaQ
03-17-2012, 01:31 PM
^^ well depending on the language either . or , is used for the "nachkommastellen" :D

Mr.Evo
03-17-2012, 02:41 PM
I <3 Nachkommastellen.

@ Thread: I think it's negligible, if not even a balance to the right direction. It grants a bit more dynamic to the game. Never had a problem with it.

m0a0t
03-18-2012, 06:49 AM
It would be nice to have some form of visual aid. Right now, I have to take your word for it that your results are correct and exact.

You also didn't go into much detail in the specifics of this experiment.

How did you time it?

(Was Kunkka directed to face the direction he would be moving? or was he facing away from it? If he was facing the direction of his destination, how was it done so?[why is there no strikethrough?])You say you tried to make him look towards the lane. I was under the impression that it was impossible to turn a unit without causing them to slightly move, was I wrong? If so, how much of a factor would this slight move be?

Was he behind the starting tower? in front of it? Did he end up behind the ending tower? in front of it? I'm going to assume there were no creeps in the way, were there?

In any case.

Has anyone considered that this might be a latency issue? Dota 2 requires a server to play the game, i.e. there will always be some form of delay.

Another factor for concern is pathing. Is it simply possible that, despite the lack of obstacles, the path taken was different? In my own "tests" in DotA 1, Kunnka didn't travel in a perfectly straight line from Tier 3 to Tier 1 paths, mid or bot.

Another question to ask is, does it really matter? How significant is a 5% difference? Is it worth the time and effort to try to fix the issue.


I'm not going to argue whether or not the map is or isn't the same size. Valve has shown errors in calculating distance before(If I recall correctly, there were some issues with the range/AoE of some skills). If I were to hazard an uneducated guess, I'd say that it might be the ramps that are the issue.(Again, the game has been shown to have issues with terrain height, AFAIK.) I'm just asking. How many factors are in play here? and how much can they impact these experiments? and is the conclusion of any significant worth?

mindfaQ
03-18-2012, 10:12 AM
@m0a0t:
I can do a video comparison, but I don't have any decent video composition software installed that can do a split screen comparison afaik and also my free time for such things is rather limited atm, so it has to wait a bit. It is a bit sad, that replays of single player games can't be saved and reviewed in dota, then I could visualize the movement of courier + also show the pointer at point B. But np, I can work around that.

Delay btw would produce a constant time delay, not increasing time delay with increasing distance. You can rule it out. Starting point was when the cursor showed the command was issued (green arrows). Next time I can take exact time the courier starts moving for the measurments, but the differences will be not more than 33 ms, since I already tested this in the past.

Just think of 5% in respect to the whole game time. In a 40 minutes game that would be 2 minutes. Now if we consider that we are not moving permanently, but only 50% of the time then it still would be 1 minute. 1 minute is a whole death cycle in migame. Ofc effects aren't huge but noticable, especially if you consider DotA's snowballing game nature (out of a small advantage in earlygame, a big advantage in lategame can arise)

BenSkysong
03-18-2012, 08:09 PM
I am presenting numbers, numbers are not opinions. If you think the balancing influence is the discussion point of this thread, then I have to disappoint you, because it is the difference in map size. Also very nice that you get offended by my "opinion" but throw in nothing except your own opinion. I encouraged everyone to post his opinion, so it is good that you post your opinion, but stop insulting and maybe try to prove your opinion with facts next time, since that would really contribute to the discussion.

----

so I did some test again with the flying courier (starts facing at a degree of 45 (between 1 and 2 o'clock) for mid, and with 0 for bottom (3 o'clock))
all sentinel side
mid tier 3 -> tier 1: 11,933 (Dota 2) vs 12,667 (DotA) seconds
mid tier 3 -> tier 2: 5,1 (Dota 2) vs 5,833 (DotA) seconds (reason for large difference: in DotA the second tower is placed a bit more out of line than in Dota 2)
bottom tier 3 -> tier 1: 25,367 (Dota 2) vs 28,4 (DotA) seconds

differences: movement takes 5% | 14% | -0,5% longer than in Dota 2 to reach point B after starting at point A.

cant test the river section or tier 3 sentinel to tier 3 dire because the courier will get sniped by the tower(s).

Guess next time I'll test the time needed to fly between the tier 1 towers. Some other suggestions? Can ofc also try it with the hero, but there the influence of terrain characteristics and path finding would be more influential than the eventual mapsize-difference.


Did you took response time into consideration?
Your time measurement started after you right click the destination or when the courier actually started moving?
I believe by my personal experience, Dota 2 response time is different from Dota 1.

Furthermore, ramp length/width/angle in Dota 2 seems different too.
Try measuring the time it takes for a hero to descent the ramp in front of radiant's mid tier 3 tower with the time it takes to descent the ramp from Sentinel's tier 3 tower in Dota 1.

Or instead of using courier and heroes. Try measuring how long does it takes for mid creeps to clash in mid after first wave spawned.

agfasfa
03-18-2012, 09:22 PM
Oh so i'm not the only one who is bothered by that?

I really hate how mid lane is made noob friendly... Mid t3 tower attack range is starting at like 1 step upon entering ramp. So it feels totally different than in wc3 dota where it was actually about dominating your lane, and i mean DOMINATING. Now it looks like it's made for newbs, so they can feel more comfortable with less pressure from enemy.

Take a look at this random video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mIqyhTlLpc

How deep did pudge get over ramp before getting focused by tower @ 0:17, in dota2 that tower would attack him way sooner, which is at 0:13, just little bit after comming upon ramp. It gives those better players much less space.

I really hate it, it's a HUGE difference. I can't OWN mid lane in dota2, just as in dota1. < No, i don't mean kills or cs score, i mean taking control over lane, putting pressure over your enemy, making him feel cornered, making him feel that he is on the lost position.

This is not how it was in dota1. It really makes me feel sad because dota is my favourite game of all time, and i hate how it becomes noob friendly in a way that it hurts those more skilled people.

And i doubt that valve will resize whole map, but i wish they would.

albargio
03-19-2012, 07:33 AM
CvP unmannered
eneryone has its own opinion
mine is that these diferences are not mistake to be corrected but consious decisions and i agree with valve - icefrogs poin of view

AREUHAPPYNOW
03-19-2012, 07:47 AM
Oh so i'm not the only one who is bothered by that?

I really hate how mid lane is made noob friendly... Mid t3 tower attack range is starting at like 1 step upon entering ramp. So it feels totally different than in wc3 dota where it was actually about dominating your lane, and i mean DOMINATING. Now it looks like it's made for newbs, so they can feel more comfortable with less pressure from enemy.

Take a look at this random video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mIqyhTlLpc

How deep did pudge get over ramp before getting focused by tower @ 0:17, in dota2 that tower would attack him way sooner, which is at 0:13, just little bit after comming upon ramp. It gives those better players much less space.

I really hate it, it's a HUGE difference. I can't OWN mid lane in dota2, just as in dota1. < No, i don't mean kills or cs score, i mean taking control over lane, putting pressure over your enemy, making him feel cornered, making him feel that he is on the lost position.

This is not how it was in dota1. It really makes me feel sad because dota is my favourite game of all time, and i hate how it becomes noob friendly in a way that it hurts those more skilled people.

And i doubt that valve will resize whole map, but i wish they would.

comparing it to dota2 makes me think that theres actualy a bit of land missing, like the river is too close to the t3 tower at dire at one point? effectivly moving the whole ramp a little bit.

agfasfa
03-19-2012, 07:54 AM
It's not icefrog anymore, it's valve. I doubt he has more control over this project than them. It was said that dota2 will be EXACTLY the same as wc3 dota, changing map drastically to the point like "Hey bro, even if you suck really hard, even if you got outplayed, we still will make you feel great!" is not same at all.

This also effects showmatches 1vs1, like in dota1 era those monster solo players playing vs eachother (430, ymt, pis, hyhy, etc.) those were really epic. It's impossible to do that in dota2.

Exactly my ass.

@x2 up
Yes, you surely do agree, as any other low skilled LoL player :o

Moe
03-20-2012, 04:29 AM
its clear that valve is calling the shots here, coz i dont think that IF would make these changes.

duckii
03-20-2012, 05:23 AM
I have to agree with agfasfa. playing mid feels a lot different and that is a problem. The tower starts shooting almost immediately you are up the ramp.
Would love to see it fixed :)

agfasfa
03-20-2012, 12:02 PM
Well, if they changed map right now then all beta tests made until now would be meaningless.

Thank you valve for making this awesome game a crap for 10 yrs old kids, you did well in that field.
Why is this game even called dota2? Shouldn't it be Lol2 or HoN2? I'd like rather never see dota2 being developed like that.

Ruining YEARS of a hard work just to squish few $ more from silly players which would remove dota2 from their PCs'cause they wouldn't keep up with better players. Now this is exactly made like LoL: Go mid, feel cool cuz you don't have to bother with anything, wait 20min hugging tower and throw ur spells like a brainless, go win game.

Moe
03-20-2012, 12:53 PM
Even though i do agree with u, some pros also do if u red kuroky interview,i dont think its gonna make any differrnce,valve wants the game to be more ( i sorry to say it rly) noob friendly so other can like u said feel good when they play.

agfasfa
03-20-2012, 01:09 PM
I've considered making some petition to change mid lane as it was, maybe getting enough votes from dota community would make any impact, but as i can see dota2 beta is made mostly of those lol guys who likes things easy so...

W/e do as you wish valve, 'cuz those shiny cars won't buy themselves.

Dissapoint. - Only word to describe this.

Moe
03-20-2012, 01:55 PM
i think its a good move, but u know u will get shitstormed, what i consider is to mail IF him self to clarify these issues.

kl4user
03-20-2012, 06:59 PM
I guess one dev should come here and talk about the map size and such things. the methods I see people using to discover the size are lame, prone to error. I dont know if this was discussed before but it should be explained by the devs if it wasnt already. It's not like they owe anything to anyone but a little communication is gold. It would only help. Just clarify it and give a reasoning.

BTW, I dont think Valve would want to turn the game into a "a crap for 10 yrs old kids". That would be pretty dumb; they can make alternate modes, training modes, challenge modes, custom modes, etc modes. The name of the game is appealing to everyone ($$$). Better than dumbing down the game it is make learning it easier, so everybody wins and Valve even more.

Anyway, obviously it's not 1:1 copy - pulling/stacking creeps is dif. Also Tinkers model sucks so I cant play him and I'd love to use march of machines with him and farm 3 neutral camps same time.

Kakee
03-21-2012, 01:40 AM
(Okay, some people here have really strange conspiracy theories)

Personally I wouldn't mind having the map scaled up slightly. That ~1sec matters!, and maybe it would open up the metagame for something else but hardcore push? (Not that I'm saying the hardcore pushmeta is completely dominating solely because of the map size, but giving Drow that one second more of living space maybe would make it easier/tempting for teams to pick up slightly harder carries again?)

F4llenKing
03-24-2012, 04:17 AM
the only thing i miss from dota1 is trees behind fountains
i noticed that some parts of dota map is a little bit small but thats not "big" problem imo, duh i would like if that is fixed

JX_Blue
03-24-2012, 08:15 AM
cant test the river section or tier 3 sentinel to tier 3 dire because the courier will get sniped by the tower(s).


Just stack vitality boosters on the flying courier so it won't die to the tower. With 6 vitality boosters I think it should be fine.

m0a0t
03-24-2012, 09:27 AM
Thank you for your reply

I can do a video comparison, but I don't have any decent video composition software installed that can do a split screen comparison afaik and also my free time for such things is rather limited atm, so it has to wait a bit. It is a bit sad, that replays of single player games can't be saved and reviewed in dota, then I could visualize the movement of courier + also show the pointer at point B. But np, I can work around that.
Oh, that's unfortunate. Isn't there someone else from the community who could run a similar test and provide us some visual aid?

Delay btw would produce a constant time delay, not increasing time delay with increasing distance. You can rule it out.
I see.

Starting point was when the cursor showed the command was issued (green arrows). Next time I can take exact time the courier starts moving for the measurments, but the differences will be not more than 33 ms, since I already tested this in the past.
With what device did you use to time both games? I mean no offense but, how did you factor off human error?

Just think of 5% in respect to the whole game time. In a 40 minutes game that would be 2 minutes. Now if we consider that we are not moving permanently, but only 50% of the time then it still would be 1 minute. 1 minute is a whole death cycle in migame. Ofc effects aren't huge but noticable, especially if you consider DotA's snowballing game nature (out of a small advantage in earlygame, a big advantage in lategame can arise)
Personally, I disagree. But then again, I'm no pro. Maybe 5% is big enough to make the difference, IDK.

Thanks for your time.

If this is an issue, I hope Valve addresses this. That is, if they can fix it at all.

mindfaQ
03-24-2012, 06:55 PM
With what device did you use to time both games? I mean no offense but, how did you factor off human error?
video recording at 30 fps and then noting the time of the start- and end-frame. start was: green cursor response on click appears, end was courier/unit stops moving. So taking the times should be exact up to 0,033 secs.

I never said it is a huge change in balance, just that it has its influence like it would have an influence if you gave all heroes a +5% damage aura (surely would give other heroes advantages than the smaller map, but you get my point).

Also people claiming - let dota 2 be dota 2 and dotA be dotA - isn't that good since both games are balanced equally, so they be consistent with each other in the most basic ways. It is for a reason that this forum has got a subforum for map inconsistencies.

BurningSera
06-28-2012, 06:01 AM
PD directed me here (sound strange but is true! thread (http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=946332)). yes please dev look into this, everything seems to be bigger in dota2 (and hence 'smaller' map) while i live with that but it is annoying at times. The area of the rosh pit is especially game changing, eg enigma ulti can cover the whole area.

For those who said dota2 is a different game - yes, they are both different games but what is the bad to make them both equally good and balance? For all we know dota1 is still the gold standard. If you are not from dota1 then why do you care?

I wish to see the consistency between both games, engine restriction or not, dota1 is still the gold standard.

Lycake
06-29-2012, 03:59 AM
there we go again.. dota 2 is NOT dota 1.. and it's good that way. The fact that the map is (just a little bit) smaller than in d1 makes the game maybe a bit faster and with more action. i really don't think that the impact of this is really huge in any games but the highest tier pro games

Sufr1r
06-29-2012, 11:28 AM
Wow, comments in this thread really make me sad. Incredible how butthurt people are for so little changes. So because of that little change in tower range, the game is LoL2, right? Jesus. Adapt to that. They won't change it and it doesn't really matter. Skilled players are the ones who can adapt to the changes.

bob
05-29-2013, 02:46 AM
agreed

y0ruba
07-06-2013, 10:06 AM
honestly valve needs to fix the mid lane asap, it's so much different in dota 1. i feel like im playing LoL now with the tower being so close to river