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Het
03-28-2012, 03:49 PM
Rather than bury this in a bug discussion thread I wanted to start a thread discussing a higher zoom height as a feature. Let me preface this by speaking directly to Valve. I will not buy Dota 2 with the current zoom height limit. I find the excessive camera movement unnecessary. The screen feels congested at times. I would rather focus more on my hero (fun) and less on fighting the camera (not so fun). I mean this sincerely and I believe having a higher zoom height maximum will actually make the game more competitive and more playable at the same time.

The primary argument for keeping the zoom level so close to the ground is that it increases the skill cap of the game. This is only true when looking at zoom level in a vacuum and not considering other aspects of having a higher max zoom level. I'll keep this simple by laying out several points I feel must be considered.

1. last hitting and accurate targeting becomes slightly more difficult as you are zoomed out farther. The relative size of the models are smaller thus requiring more accuracy. Good players will stand out because they can maintain their accuracy and speed even at a higher zoom.

2. All players will gain a quicker sense of their immediate surroundings with a higher zoom height. Some say this makes the game easier but in reality it will make the most important aspect of the game more critical. It shifts some of the micromanagement burden from camera management to hero management. Ganks in some situations become more difficult to pull off. Team fights naturally become more coordinated when you can see more of the battle at a glance. This will make tactical positioning and coordinated execution more important in all fights.

3. The game becomes more accessible in a good way. The newer players will be more aware of their immediate surroundings. Players that didn't grow up on RTS games that might be excellent at hero management but poor at camera management will become more competitive. The top players will remain the top players but overall the games will be better.

4. The disadvantage of the Dire side because of the camera angle showing more of whats behind them will be slightly lessened. Currently the Dire side player must move the camera more to see as far South as a Radiant player would see North but with less camera movement.

I can honestly say I enjoy the game much more by using the cliffs to zoom my camera out more. Based on other threads about this subject I am not alone in wanting more zoom height. With fog of war I can't see any reason outside of engine limitations to not allow any level of zoom. However I would be happy with a max height equal to what using the cliffs bug to it's maximum effect offers.

Thanks,
Het

HMAN911
03-28-2012, 04:14 PM
I understand your points, and they are fair arguments. That being said, I highly doubt Valve will allow the user to zoom out much more than what we currently have. Perhaps a 2-5% increase in camera distance, but nothing as dramatic as the cliff-zoom bug abuse.

This point has been argued to death and the points you make have been argued over in previous threads. This debate has also been held for other games with comparable gameplay requirements - a great example is Starcraft 2. There are no technical limitations around it, it was based on gameplay and Blizzard chose not to allow further zoom. In the points you listed, all 4 have significant impact on gameplay and balance of the game. Much of this has already been discussed previously. I am sure Valve have thought long and hard about this issue, and are aware of the divide in the community regarding this. There is really nothing any one user can add to the discussion at this point - it lies outside of our reach.

Het
03-28-2012, 10:45 PM
Well I haven't seen every point I made mentioned elsewhere. Higher zoom height has absolutely no impact on balancing. Fog of war is there for the same reason regardless of zoom height. The "skill" arguement has also been completely refuted. There is no reason to keep a dated game mechanic in Dota 2 because of fallacious reasoning.

BTW everything Blizzard does is no longer golden. I remember as far back as the Diablo 2 beta they argued that having a small stash size was good for gameplay. They said making tough decisions on what to keep was a good thing. I guess they never thought that having more items makes the decision on what to wear more difficult. The end result of their poor decision was everyone having mule accounts. Have you had a look at modern action RPG's lately? Large stashes.

vladhood
03-28-2012, 10:47 PM
how did you arrive at the thought that camera management is any less important than hero management?

HMAN911
03-28-2012, 11:04 PM
I had a lengthy post in a previous thread about this topic. Just quickly, your points and how they have an impact on game balance:

1. last hitting and accurate targeting becomes slightly more difficult as you are zoomed out farther. The relative size of the models are smaller thus requiring more accuracy. Good players will stand out because they can maintain their accuracy and speed even at a higher zoom.

Trend moving from technical/timing based last hitting to also include accuracy. This will cause a decrease in total farm attained as players will miss last hitting more frequently due to smaller model sizes. Item prices will need to be adjusted accordingly.

2. All players will gain a quicker sense of their immediate surroundings with a higher zoom height. Some say this makes the game easier but in reality it will make the most important aspect of the game more critical. It shifts some of the micromanagement burden from camera management to hero management. Ganks in some situations become more difficult to pull off. Team fights naturally become more coordinated when you can see more of the battle at a glance. This will make tactical positioning and coordinated execution more important in all fights.

You sort of hinted to it on your own, but there are other side affects. Heroes who have range/surprise based attacks will need tweaking. Pudge is 1400 units away and you can see him coming. You can see the hook traveling for longer. Mirana arrow - you can see the arrow coming from further away, have longer to dodge. Blink based heroes, charging heroes - the list goes on.

3. The game becomes more accessible in a good way. The newer players will be more aware of their immediate surroundings. Players that didn't grow up on RTS games that might be excellent at hero management but poor at camera management will become more competitive. The top players will remain the top players but overall the games will be better.

Really similar to your 2. Not sure how it will make the game more accessible, you could argue that zooming out to see the entire map would make the game ultra accessible then? Not sure what the cause of the accessibility is. Whats the point in seeing more when everything is covered in the fog of war?

4. The disadvantage of the Dire side because of the camera angle showing more of whats behind them will be slightly lessened. Currently the Dire side player must move the camera more to see as far South as a Radiant player would see North but with less camera movement.

Very minor issue in my opinion - if this had a significant disadvantage we would see a trend in competitive gaming indicating this.

My example for Starcraft 2 was not in argument that it was a perfect decision, it is an example of a premier esport title that is undoubtedly the biggest esport title available now, which has opted for a very locked/limited zoom capability. Blizzard themselves have stated that the locked zoom actually promotes micro and game play speed - these are subtle things that have big impact on gameplay. Like I said, I'm certain Valve and Icefrog have considered this topic very carefully and made their decision based on many variables - much the same way Blizzard have done for Starcraft 2. Now that SC2 is out, nobody even mentions the zoom level. The same will happen for Dota 2.

d.phoenixxx
03-29-2012, 06:24 AM
Het,
there used to be a map hack in Dota 1 on WC3 that adjusted the field of view to twice the size of what was normally seen.

Personally seeing my friend using, I can tell you that it is not balanced at all. He clearly has a heightened sense of awareness due to the field of view and it was also easier for him to notice heroes coming from the sides as well as positioning in teamfights.
It was also easier for him to last hit and time "skill" shots like PotM's Arrow and Admiral's Ghost Ship.

Het
03-29-2012, 04:51 PM
how did you arrive at the thought that camera management is any less important than hero management?

Flicking the camera around constantly is not interesting or fun in any way. It is only a tool that gets us to the more interesting and enjoyable aspects of the game. As I mentioned in my post, with a higher zoom max, the burden of micromanagement would partially shift from camera management to hero management.



Trend moving from technical/timing based last hitting to also include accuracy. This will cause a decrease in total farm attained as players will miss last hitting more frequently due to smaller model sizes. Item prices will need to be adjusted accordingly.

This is purely speculative. On further testing with the cliff exploit I can say that last hitting is not more difficult simply because of not having to move the camera so often. It tends to balance itself. We aren't talking about satellite imagery here.



You sort of hinted to it on your own, but there are other side affects. Heroes who have range/surprise based attacks will need tweaking. Pudge is 1400 units away and you can see him coming. You can see the hook traveling for longer. Mirana arrow - you can see the arrow coming from further away, have longer to dodge. Blink based heroes, charging heroes - the list goes on.

First off, if any hero comes into my revealed fog of war I should be able to see him! You bolded the wrong portion of my comment. You should have bolded the part where I said "This will make tactical positioning and coordinated execution more important in all fights. Less about ganking the noob and more about quality of execution. It is possible a few skills would need some slight tweaks but nothing major. These types of tweaks will be happening throughout Dota 2's lifespan regardless of zoom height.



Really similar to your 2. Not sure how it will make the game more accessible, you could argue that zooming out to see the entire map would make the game ultra accessible then? Not sure what the cause of the accessibility is. Whats the point in seeing more when everything is covered in the fog of war?

It makes the game more accessible buy shifting the burdon of micromanagement from the mundain and unnecessary to more interesting and enjoyable aspects of the game.



Very minor issue in my opinion - if this had a significant disadvantage we would see a trend in competitive gaming indicating this.

An issue nonetheless that having a higher zoom slightly alleviates. Another positive in the higher zoom camp. Companies are too afraid to innovate and simply haven't addressed the issue. For the future one solution would be to flip the view perspective of all Dire side players 180 degrees by default. Minimap stays the same. Top is still top, bot is still bot, problem solved.



My example for Starcraft 2 was not in argument that it was a perfect decision, it is an example of a premier esport title that is undoubtedly the biggest esport title available now, which has opted for a very locked/limited zoom capability. Blizzard themselves have stated that the locked zoom actually promotes micro and game play speed - these are subtle things that have big impact on gameplay.

A premier esport title that has been surpassed (http://kotaku.com/5893136/league-of-legends-is-the-new-starcraft-in-korea) by League of Legends which happens to be Dota 2's primary esport competition. League of Legends has a higher effective zoom max compared to Dota 2.



Het, there used to be a map hack in Dota 1 on WC3 that adjusted the field of view to twice the size of what was normally seen. Personally seeing my friend using, I can tell you that it is not balanced at all. He clearly has a heightened sense of awareness due to the field of view and it was also easier for him to notice heroes coming from the sides as well as positioning in teamfights. It was also easier for him to last hit and time "skill" shots like PotM's Arrow and Admiral's Ghost Ship.

Now imagine having a greater zoom height as a feature. I'm not talking about scrolling all the way out ala Supreme Commander. I'm talking about a max level similar to what can be achieved with the cliffs bug on the Dota 2 map. With everyone having a greater immediate area awareness and less need for constant camera adjustment, interesting things like tactical positioning and well coordinated execution become more critical. Burdensome things like constantly having to mess with the camera less critical. This is a positive thing.

HMAN911
03-29-2012, 05:53 PM
Starcraft 2 example was an example of an esport that is successful that uses what valve have opted for here. I think it has been proven many many times on these forums and via personal experience that LoL is not close to Dota 2 in terms of complexity and depth. It is aimed at the more casual/young players, and it is successful in that aspect. The fact that lol is free also pads their statistics. LoL is horribly unbalanced and I dont agree with other decisions they have made as well. Thats not really the point of this discussion.

Read up on the old discussions for starcraft 2 for this exact topic. Read up on Blizzards stance and realise that there are reasons for WHY they do this. If this is a perfect improvement without any cons, why have they not done it? Do you think Valve dota 2 devs have not analysed LoL HoN and all other mobas before beginning development? It is not a lot of work to make an adjustment like this - the source engine allows it freely. It was a problem in WC3 because it was only enabled by 3rd party hacks. The thing is, Dota has found its balance and gameplay from the limitations of the host engine - that is what makes it unique. It has evolved using the limitations. 6 item limit for heroes, for instance - hard coded.

The short answer is camera management is just as important an element of the game as item builds, or team composition, or last hitting. It is not mundane or un-necessary. You could make this argument about any section of the game - I could say we should not need to deny - that it is a mundane/un-necessary feature, much like LoL have done - what has it done? It has simplified the game and removed a level of depth from the laning phase. You will see in many competitive games where denying has massively affected the outcome of the game in Dota 2 - that aspect and that depth cannot be seen in LoL because the mechanic was simply removed.

The camera management is just another element of the game. With closer Zoom using control groups becomes more important, using the chicken requires more dexterity, and staying aware of the game requires more concentration, because vital information is not seen at a glance. The player needs to actively pan and risks ganks/lane control by doing so. Every decision, even camera movement, has an impact.

kanedat
03-29-2012, 06:34 PM
[..]League of Legends has a higher effective zoom max compared to Dota 2. [..] I'm not talking about scrolling all the way out ala Supreme Commander. I'm talking about a max level similar to what can be achieved with the cliffs bug on the Dota 2 map. With everyone having a greater immediate area awareness and less need for constant camera adjustment, interesting things like tactical positioning and well coordinated execution become more critical. Burdensome things like constantly having to mess with the camera less critical. This is a positive thing.

Not really, unit sizes of LoL are similar to the ones in Dota2. While observing the size of all elements (units, walkable paths etc.) you will notice that in LoL the map itself just is smaller than in Dota2.

Plus:
If a SC-like zoom is no option you still need to keep track any actions outside the visible area, so you only reduce the amount of camera-movement (and actually not that much). Dota is a team-game and in case of a team-clash you got a total of 5 people to cover/check the important area, should be enough to set up a proper positioning (while only using a basic amount of camera-movement).

HMAN911
03-29-2012, 06:56 PM
Not really, unit sizes of LoL are similar to the ones in Dota2. While observing the size of all elements (units, walkable paths etc.) you will notice that in LoL the map itself just is smaller than in Dota2.

Plus:
If a SC-like zoom is no option you still need to keep track any actions outside the visible area, so you only reduce the amount of camera-movement (and actually not that much). Dota is a team-game and in case of a team-clash you got a total of 5 people to cover/check the important area, should be enough to set up a proper positioning (while only using a basic amount of camera-movement).

Good point regarding encouraging team play - communication and teamwork has a higher role/value when you cant check everything constantly - you ask your support for rune, you ask team to call missing etc. It influences so many things.

IWantToHelpAsMuchAsIcan
03-30-2012, 05:38 AM
It's for balance purposes. The more you see, the more you are aware of potential ganks. If you play some more you'll get used to current zoom limit sooner or later.

Teboga
03-30-2012, 08:17 AM
This zoom taboo is really nonsense. A 20% increase in the camera distance would make the game much more enjoyable while changing almost nothing balance wise. All this arguments about ganks and that freaking Mirana arrow are hilarious. What makes you survive ganks are wards and map awareness, being abel to zoom out a little more wont save you. Do you really think you can dodge an arrow because you saw it 0.05 sec earlier??? And no matter how far you can zoom out, you will never see ganks coming because of a feature called 'Fog of War'.

I really wish the developers would be more open minded about this. The only thing this promotes is unfair advantage as there are a ton of hacks to increase the camera distance for both HoN, LoL and Dota 2.

If Valve makes an option, to play with more zoom or not, I'll bet you more then 90% of the players will use more zoom. It's just better to play.

Het
03-31-2012, 05:14 PM
It's for balance purposes. The more you see, the more you are aware of potential ganks. If you play some more you'll get used to current zoom limit sooner or later.

Why are you afraid of having a more competitive community? Fog of war limits what you can see anyway. In the instances where you see a gank sooner because of higher zoom I would say the gank was poorly executed. Seriously, less moving the camera around and more focusing on your hero is a positive for everyone. I don't want luck kills because my foe had his camera out of position.



This zoom taboo is really nonsense. A 20% increase in the camera distance would make the game much more enjoyable while changing almost nothing balance wise. All this arguments about ganks and that freaking Mirana arrow are hilarious. What makes you survive ganks are wards and map awareness, being abel to zoom out a little more wont save you. Do you really think you can dodge an arrow because you saw it 0.05 sec earlier??? And no matter how far you can zoom out, you will never see ganks coming because of a feature called 'Fog of War'.

I really wish the developers would be more open minded about this. The only thing this promotes is unfair advantage as there are a ton of hacks to increase the camera distance for both HoN, LoL and Dota 2.

If Valve makes an option, to play with more zoom or not, I'll bet you more then 90% of the players will use more zoom. It's just better to play.

Indeed. I remember the evolution of the first person shooter, many people whined and cried over weapon switch delay and reload delay as shooters became more realistic. They argued it took the skill of fast weapon switching out of the game. In reality it made shooters more cerebral and intuitive at the same time. Much the same here.

vladhood
03-31-2012, 06:25 PM
Seriously, less moving the camera around and more focusing on your hero is a positive for everyone

nobody is going to agree with you. go play SMITE if you think camera management is such a needless part of the dota gameplay.


Indeed. I remember the evolution of the first person shooter, many people whined and cried over weapon switch delay and reload delay as shooters became more realistic. They argued it took the skill of fast weapon switching out of the game.

not only is this irrelevant, but i grew up playing quake and CS and i never heard these complaints made about those types of games? is duke nukem 3D your FPS prototype and you're just mentioning petty gripes or are you saying call of duty and other modern warfare games are the pinnacle of FPS evolution?

Het
04-03-2012, 12:45 PM
nobody is going to agree with you.

Judging from all the threads on the subject it actually seems you are in the minority and by a large margin.

hurt
04-03-2012, 01:08 PM
Guys the argument "Fog of War limits your view" is just invalid. Let's say you are near a teammate and therefore you're lacking of Fog of War because your mate gives you extra vision. (Shared Vision between teammates, nothing new I guess..)
So, let's say that the camera angle is like it is right now: Your teammate actually sees Pudge who wants to hook you. You didn't notice him yet (although he is on your minimap) because you can't see the model on your screen. Your teammate tries to warn you but it is too late because acustical warnings + your response are too slow.
The same scenario with a higher Field of View: Your teammate actually sees Pudge who wants to hook you. You did notice him because he actually is IN your OWN Field of View and your response time is lower because you directly saw him yourself.
Fog of War doesn't only limit what you must not view. Fog of War limits what you are not allowed to see and reveals something if you are allowed to see what is behind it. But that doesn't guarantee you that you WILL and HAVE TO see it. And THATS why camera movement actually rises the required skill. Please do not discuss about this Pudge example, there are tons of other examples which do not depend on any skill shot.

Regards

Het
04-03-2012, 03:32 PM
And THATS why camera movement actually rises the required skill.

You should have read the thread and you are contradicting yourself. If it becomes easier to deal with certain situations, naturally those same situations on the other team are more difficult. It's a shift in skill from the carpal tunnel mundane (constant camera flicking) to a greater focus on initiation and execution. Currently playing Dota 2 is like playing a shooter with an FOV of 50-60 rather than a more natural 90-100.

psalm
04-03-2012, 03:42 PM
I personally would be interested in experimenting with a larger field of view, but I do understand the dota 1 players being concerned about it.

d.phoenixxx
04-03-2012, 05:35 PM
You should have read the thread and you are contradicting yourself. If it becomes easier to deal with certain situations, naturally those same situations on the other team are more difficult. It's a shift in skill from the carpal tunnel mundane (constant camera flicking) to a greater focus on initiation and execution. Currently playing Dota 2 is like playing a shooter with an FOV of 50-60 rather than a more natural 90-100.

I'll give you some scenarios where skill is concerned.

1) Sniper Assassinating Puck/QOP/AM. Because of the way Assassinate works, it is possible to dodge the projectile with Blink/Phase Shift at the right time. If my FOV is larger, its easier for me to see Sniper projectile earlier and I can dodge it faster.
Result: Indirect Nerf to Sniper.
Action Needed: Need buff to Sniper's Assassinate.
2) Ancient Apparition's Ice Blast. Because of Ice Blast being a global sniping skill, with a larger FOV, it is easier for AA to aim it while still noticing whats directly happening around him.
Result: Indirect Buff to AA. You will definitely see players playing AA with the largest possible FOV.
Action Needed: Need to nerf AA, because it becomes too easy to aim AA's Ice Blast, since its easier to predict enemy movements and the Ice Blast projective movement time when fired, with a larger FOV.
3) Heroes with Blink/Windwalk skills and the interaction with Smoke of Deceit. Because Smoke of Deceit has a 1 second break time, costs 100 gold and has a reasonable long cooldown time, heroes with a larger FOV and escape skills can easily spot heroes coming out of Smoke of Deceit much faster and escape to safety.
Result: Direct Nerf to Smoke of Deceit.
Action Needed: Need to buff Smoke of Deceit cooldown/cost/break distance.

All of the above are just a few noticeable consequences I can predict from a larger FOV.
It is important to note that I am NOT against a larger FOV, Im against adjusting for a larger FOV. I prefer that everyone has the same FOV to make it balanced.
If everyone is going to play with larger FOV however, there are a lot of balance changes that must be made.
The above are 3 crucial examples I highlighted, especially the one involving Smoke of Deceit, which is a very high level competitive ganking tool that actually takes advantage of that 1 split second to gank/engage in a teamfight that could be game-winning.

That is the primary reason why Im against adjusting for a larger FOV, many different skills/items/abilities/heroes would definitely have to be changed. It might not seem like much to you, but these indirect buffs and nerfs are significant and will really affect gameplay and game balance and would require some drastic changes.
Currently, I think the game is balanced, and this critical balance should not be tilted because it will upset a lot of people who have gotten used to the gameplay mechanics.

Noya
04-03-2012, 05:39 PM
Well, this is balance discussion and Not a "Map Issue", I think you are wasting our time here...

There's a Console Command for what you are asking for, it's dota_camera_distance xxx IIRC, but its only possible to activate it in Cheat Enabled Private Lobbys. See what I did there?

I will repeat this again and again, meh, I will make it my signature.

Don't fix what it's not broken.

Zzod
04-03-2012, 05:59 PM
Balance discussions @ playdota please

HMAN911
04-03-2012, 06:06 PM
Well, this is balance discussion and Not a "Map Issue", I think you are wasting our time here...

There's a Console Command for what you are asking for, it's dota_camera_distance xxx IIRC, but its only possible to activate it in Cheat Enabled Private Lobbys. See what I did there?

I will repeat this again and again, meh, I will make it my signature.

Don't fix what it's not broken.

Dont fix what is not broken.

Noya
04-03-2012, 06:14 PM
^Sorry, not native speaker, I fixed it :D

HMAN911
04-03-2012, 06:18 PM
^Sorry, not native speaker, I fixed it :D
Thats ok just thought I would fix it cause you said you would sig it.

hurt
04-04-2012, 08:06 AM
You should have read the thread and you are contradicting yourself. If it becomes easier to deal with certain situations, naturally those same situations on the other team are more difficult. It's a shift in skill from the carpal tunnel mundane (constant camera flicking) to a greater focus on initiation and execution. Currently playing Dota 2 is like playing a shooter with an FOV of 50-60 rather than a more natural 90-100.

I actually read the whole thread and exactly what you are saying is yet another problem. If ganking situations get too difficult for the party who wants to gank someone, the total amount of ganks gets lower. Therefore the overall action in the whole game gets smaller, maybe even transform the meta game into another rice fest, because ganking just isn't worth it anymore. There is no shifting to "a greater focus on initiation and execution" because ganks are just not doable anymore without buffs to certain heroes, if the FOV is higher than it is right now.

Chane
04-16-2012, 11:09 AM
the most anoying thing is that people with widescreen have an advantage.

I use 1024x1080 but people with insane widescreen can just see more!

this should be fixed.

+1

Dkwj
04-20-2012, 01:33 AM
We don't exactly 'see' more.

It's just presented in a more stretched manner. in bigger size

Dkwj
04-20-2012, 01:37 AM
http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4587&d=1332903724

http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4588&d=1332903727

also this 2 picture shows what happens when you have a higher zoom height.

u obviously see alot more, removing a huge amount of camera management skill

Cross
04-24-2012, 09:23 PM
http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4587&d=1332903724

http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4588&d=1332903727

also this 2 picture shows what happens when you have a higher zoom height.

u obviously see alot more, removing a huge amount of camera management skill

That zoom out shows to me why this game cannot have a drastically increased FOV.
Look at all that room to see so much more, heroes, spells, creeps; way too easy.

@OP If a game is not set to your preference I understand, especially because it seems like you do want to play the game.
The game is currently balanced around this FOV, and as it has been noted there would need to be significant balances changes to make more than a minor change to the FOV.
I agree it would be nice to have a little more room, but I think it is fine as is, and I do not want it to be changed by any noticeable amount.

Also comparing this to an FPS genre change does not really work, that really is an Apples and Oranges comparison.

Crazy Dave
05-04-2012, 04:47 PM
There's two reasons, in my mind, why keeping the FOV where it is is optimal:
1) It improves surprise-based skills, as mentioned above.
2) It makes it waaay easier for the Source Engine to render everything if there's less stuff to render.

Also, OP, by starting your thread with "I will not buy this game if you don't implement my suggestion!" is bad for 2 reasons:
1) If you want people to listen to you, being rude to them is not the best way to get their attention.
2) Dota 2 will be free-to-play. What are you talking about?

I understand your argument and respect your opinion. However, I think that the detriments outweigh the benefits, and therefore disagree with this suggestion.

Kevin
05-05-2012, 10:32 AM
I still don't understand this nonsense about how mirana arrow and pudge hook would be broken entirely

what is the issue with actually being able to see things in your vision?

does an added layer of controls to hop through really make the game more challenging or interesting?

avenxiuh
05-05-2012, 05:49 PM
yea this. camera manipulation is not a fun or interesting skill.

4saken.infinity
05-05-2012, 08:51 PM
http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4587&d=1332903724

http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4588&d=1332903727

also this 2 picture shows what happens when you have a higher zoom height.

u obviously see alot more, removing a huge amount of camera management skill

Yeah no, do not want that alright.

Dethrin
05-08-2012, 08:40 PM
http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4587&d=1332903724

http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4588&d=1332903727

also this 2 picture shows what happens when you have a higher zoom height.

u obviously see alot more, removing a huge amount of camera management skill

Upon seeing the zoomed-out screenshot, my brain told me I didn't like it. I'm not particularly sure why, considering it was a reaction and not a choice, but I can think of a reason why it might not be a good idea.

The zoomed-out view is simply too far for the way the game is played. Dota 2 is primarily a tactical game. While it does have strong strategical elements, most of the game is based around singular hero control and being able to manipulate said hero in a tight, tactical manner. I feel the current zoom level properly allows this, providing the player with enough information to make small tactical decisions without bombarding him/her with information, rendering said decisions inherently more difficult.

NinjaT
05-09-2012, 08:23 AM
I agree with you Het. Very nice post.

NinjaT
05-09-2012, 08:31 AM
yea this. camera manipulation is not a fun or interesting skill.

^this !

Reson
05-11-2012, 10:27 PM
I come from playing Dota 1 only and my first complain after playing my first Dota 2 game was why do i feel so close to my hero. From memory i remember seeing much more fog on the screen in Dota 1 (around the edges) than what it is now. Does anybody have any pictures that can show this comparison? My memory could be completely wrong so a picture that shows that would be appreciated too.

(it might be the more cluttered UI thats giving me this impression)

Shadowflame
05-12-2012, 01:42 AM
http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4587&d=1332903724

http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4588&d=1332903727

also this 2 picture shows what happens when you have a higher zoom height.

u obviously see alot more, removing a huge amount of camera management skill

That zoom out shows to me why this game cannot have a drastically increased FOV.
Look at all that room to see so much more, heroes, spells, creeps; way too easy.
Lol what?? These screens obviously show the difference between good zoom-out distance(higher one) and bad one, when i "broke" my eyes with claustraphobic feeling!

ps edited - also, i have to say, that camera distance from using cliff-bug is not a good choice either, cause it is too high. We need something in between standard and this ultra-high!

TOAB
05-12-2012, 10:18 AM
Fine the way it is. If you have difficulty panning the camera or moving, you're either bad or need practice. I've never felt it was bad.

pigleet
05-13-2012, 06:19 PM
Only a 2-3% zoom increase, anymore than would make make the game stupid.....

Admiral_Krunch
05-14-2012, 02:29 PM
If Valve is going to add multiple modes, like we heard about a while ago, I don't see why they can't add a "casual" mode with a zoom feature for us plebs who don't want to play WC3 all over again. I'd be ok with that, let the pros have their lunchbox view and give us "plebs" wide-open space. :)

rfkey
05-14-2012, 08:54 PM
if icefrog decided to keep the FOV at that distance, then there must be a reason for it. Icefrog is the one doing all the balance issues and heroes, valve is the one implementing it in dota 2 and changing the cosmetics. If they wanted to do things their own way they wouldn't have hired icefrog.

Kitchen
05-18-2012, 11:11 AM
The camera height has a pretty big impact on the feel of the game. If a certain height were discovered to be more effective, I think it might be to the detriment of the look/feel of playing the game.

For spectators, yea, it could be cool.

men1kmati
06-11-2012, 09:02 AM
Rather than bury this in a bug discussion thread I wanted to start a thread discussing a higher zoom height as a feature. Let me preface this by speaking directly to Valve. I will not buy Dota 2 with the current zoom height limit. I find the excessive camera movement unnecessary. The screen feels congested at times. I would rather focus more on my hero (fun) and less on fighting the camera (not so fun). I mean this sincerely and I believe having a higher zoom height maximum will actually make the game more competitive and more playable at the same time.

The primary argument for keeping the zoom level so close to the ground is that it increases the skill cap of the game. This is only true when looking at zoom level in a vacuum and not considering other aspects of having a higher max zoom level. I'll keep this simple by laying out several points I feel must be considered.

1. last hitting and accurate targeting becomes slightly more difficult as you are zoomed out farther. The relative size of the models are smaller thus requiring more accuracy. Good players will stand out because they can maintain their accuracy and speed even at a higher zoom.

2. All players will gain a quicker sense of their immediate surroundings with a higher zoom height. Some say this makes the game easier but in reality it will make the most important aspect of the game more critical. It shifts some of the micromanagement burden from camera management to hero management. Ganks in some situations become more difficult to pull off. Team fights naturally become more coordinated when you can see more of the battle at a glance. This will make tactical positioning and coordinated execution more important in all fights.

3. The game becomes more accessible in a good way. The newer players will be more aware of their immediate surroundings. Players that didn't grow up on RTS games that might be excellent at hero management but poor at camera management will become more competitive. The top players will remain the top players but overall the games will be better.

4. The disadvantage of the Dire side because of the camera angle showing more of whats behind them will be slightly lessened. Currently the Dire side player must move the camera more to see as far South as a Radiant player would see North but with less camera movement.

I can honestly say I enjoy the game much more by using the cliffs to zoom my camera out more. Based on other threads about this subject I am not alone in wanting more zoom height. With fog of war I can't see any reason outside of engine limitations to not allow any level of zoom. However I would be happy with a max height equal to what using the cliffs bug to it's maximum effect offers.

Thanks,
Het

You won't buy dota2? Its free to play kid. And yea you will still play it.

Stunalan
06-17-2012, 05:50 AM
I'll give you some scenarios where skill is concerned.

1) Sniper Assassinating Puck/QOP/AM. Because of the way Assassinate works, it is possible to dodge the projectile with Blink/Phase Shift at the right time. If my FOV is larger, its easier for me to see Sniper projectile earlier and I can dodge it faster.
Result: Indirect Nerf to Sniper.
Action Needed: Need buff to Sniper's Assassinate.
2) Ancient Apparition's Ice Blast. Because of Ice Blast being a global sniping skill, with a larger FOV, it is easier for AA to aim it while still noticing whats directly happening around him.
Result: Indirect Buff to AA. You will definitely see players playing AA with the largest possible FOV.
Action Needed: Need to nerf AA, because it becomes too easy to aim AA's Ice Blast, since its easier to predict enemy movements and the Ice Blast projective movement time when fired, with a larger FOV.
3) Heroes with Blink/Windwalk skills and the interaction with Smoke of Deceit. Because Smoke of Deceit has a 1 second break time, costs 100 gold and has a reasonable long cooldown time, heroes with a larger FOV and escape skills can easily spot heroes coming out of Smoke of Deceit much faster and escape to safety.
Result: Direct Nerf to Smoke of Deceit.
Action Needed: Need to buff Smoke of Deceit cooldown/cost/break distance.


Just a few points that make your statements wrong:

1) When Sniper assassinates you, you can see the "assasinate" status, which also tells you when the projectile is released. Therefore, arguing that seeing the projectile 0.05 seconds before it hits you is invalid.

2) If it makes it easier to aim, also makes it easier to dodge, since you will be able to see Ice Blast coming a fraction of second before, right? Wrong. For the majority of players, seeing something a fraction of second before or not seeing it at all will not make any difference since they lack the quick reaction for it to save anyone. Hence, it does not affect AA or makes it easier to hit Ice Blast in any ways.

3) No arguing there, it's the only point you actually got some reason.

DJudic
07-08-2012, 10:48 PM
This, plus the low mouse sensitivity that cannot be changed, makes my play so far terrible and not having good time. I started clicking on the minimap, instead of pushing the edges of the screen with the mouse because of that and I keep my hero in the bottom left corner so that I am closer to the minimap. It is really not good!

Zacharybinx34
07-09-2012, 08:37 AM
all of these Dota 1 purist are holding back Dota 2 from being the game it could be. The claustrophobic camera system is just obnoxious and silly.....let wc3 Dota exist as it's boring self and catch Dota 2 up with the year 2012.

nicoman
07-09-2012, 09:40 AM
all of these Dota 1 purist are holding back Dota 2 from being the game it could be. The claustrophobic camera system is just obnoxious and silly.....let wc3 Dota exist as it's boring self and catch Dota 2 up with the year 2012.

This just made me laugh.. Let the original DotA exist as its boring self??? The game is the farthest thing from boring, an entire sequel is being made after it, having millions of dollars being poured into it, and it is following the original as closely as possible.

Camera management and positioning of it are crucial aspects of game play. Adding a further view removes all the positional sense and astute camera management skills required for higher level play.

Think about it, during the day your FoV (Field of Vision) is larger then the area your camera covers. This means that if you are not paying attention to the minimap, or have your camera view poorly positioned in regards to the situation you are in (laning, jungling, etc.) there is potential for an enemy player to walk up to you before you even see that he is there Even though he was in your FoV the entire time. However if you were paying attention to the minimap and had better camera control and positioning of your view, you would be able to avoid that situation and escape, or perhaps turn it in your favor.

Increasing the view would eliminate that aspect of skill that separates good players from the rest. It is part of the games skill factor whether you like it or not. Ask any pro player and they will tell you they look more at the minimap then their actual screen. Work on your camera management skills and map awareness instead of asking for a noob friendly feature that makes the game easier for you.

Zacharybinx34
07-09-2012, 09:55 AM
This just made me laugh.. Let the original DotA exist as its boring self??? The game is the farthest thing from boring, an entire sequel is being made after it, having millions of dollars being poured into it, and it is following the original as closely as possible.

Camera management and positioning of it are crucial aspects of game play. Adding a further view removes all the positional sense and astute camera management skills required for higher level play.

Think about it, during the day your FoV (Field of Vision) is larger then the area your camera covers. This means that if you are not paying attention to the minimap, or have your camera view poorly positioned in regards to the situation you are in (laning, jungling, etc.) there is potential for an enemy player to walk up to you before you even see that he is there Even though he was in your FoV the entire time. However if you were paying attention to the minimap and had better camera control and positioning of your view, you would be able to avoid that situation and escape, or perhaps turn it in your favor.

Increasing the view would eliminate that aspect of skill that separates good players from the rest. It is part of the games skill factor whether you like it or not. Ask any pro player and they will tell you they look more at the minimap then their actual screen. Work on your camera management skills and map awareness instead of asking for a noob friendly feature that makes the game easier for you.

No.

It's 2012, move on. If you like dota 1 so much just play dota 1.


everyone else, we want Dota 2 to not be held to stupid traditional standards that only make sense to people who refuse to change and evolve as gaming evolves.


The "Flicking your camera around every 2 seconds cuz the obnoxious camera is retardedly too zoomed in adds skill" argument, is just making everyone dumber everytime some dota 1 purist regurgitates it.

LET IT DIE. If you really want more skill, then start making threads asking for the camera to be EVEN MORE zoomed in, cuz you want MORE camera skill to be involved.





The camera system is not fun. THE END

WithOutNam3
07-09-2012, 10:35 AM
Screen Zoom at 16:9 View is just Fine as is it but in 4:3 We Have Some Problems

killershane
07-09-2012, 10:55 PM
The camera being so close to the hero and constant camera moving to keep up to the pace of the game makes me feel nauseous in a sense that it feels too close to the bloody screen and constant camera moving is just horrifying. The least that could happen is a slight zoom out to reduce constant camera moving, heck, there's fog for a reason.

smashfury
07-10-2012, 12:54 AM
Screen Zoom at 16:9 View is just Fine as is it but in 4:3 We Have Some Problems

yeah, i'm not sure this game should even be considered to be played at 4:3. i've poured a lot of time into dota2, basically starting from a weak background to a decently strong one.

when i first started playing i used windowed 4:3 and most of my matches made me fear Pudge due to how at the time i felt that i couldn't see what was going on in the jungle if it was off to the right or left. the best way to fix this was to drop some gold into getting wards, but another great way was to ALWAYS LOOK AT THE MINI MAP. i can't stress that enough, that mini map is your best friend. it's tipped me off to so many ganks and repositioning situations. this and the addition of wards gives you so much information that in my opinion many newer players don't tend to take into consideration.

but one day i messed around with the options and settled on the 16:9 aspect ratio. the models are the same size as before, but now i have the extra side view. this does make my job of always looking at the mini map easier. in situations like early game ganks i can notice the enemy lanning players moving into what i would consider ganking positioning in my FOV as opposed to having to assuming when the player's icon is moving in the mini map (like what i was doing before in 4:3 ratio). in short, being able to do this also makes me confident in my positioning.

Now about letting you zoom back more, personally i think the idea would be nice but i'm not sure if it's completely ideal. like many have argued before the "fog-of-war" blocks off what vision your hero has, so no matter what every players vision is limited by that. there is also the idea of being about to position skill shots better or being about to avoid them better, which can be argued that sometimes the time added is almost humanly impossible to react too, like dealing with the blind Pudge Hook. my counter to this is what has been said before; use team work, ward, use the mini-map.

i'm also seeing some people argue that moving the camera itself is ruining the game because it's needlessly counter intuitive. you spend a ridiculous amount of timing moving your view, which could have been spent clicking on that creep to killed it. personally i haven't found much of an issue of this; i think i move my camera round just as much as i move it in LoL or HoN, then again those maps are much smaller compared to the one Dota2 so moving the camera might not be much of an issue for everyone else who plays the game.

touching back on the subject, don't think it would ruined skill shots that much either. yes i do believe that people would react to things fast and that it would make using them a bit harder in some cases, but i think that most people shouldn't get into situations like that in the first place. then again i'm thinking about using the skills from a horizontal position.

the only really thing that does bug me is how much more upper vertical vision you get. from the pics posted before, you can almost see to the other tower. although it's rare for some one to set up a gank from that position (coming from the jungle and attacking towards the river), it would be far easier to spot them if you decided to. this plus the additional view from 16:9 i think would be ideal for some players, but i think the game now is fine.

nicoman
07-10-2012, 05:39 AM
No.

It's 2012, move on. If you like dota 1 so much just play dota 1.


everyone else, we want Dota 2 to not be held to stupid traditional standards that only make sense to people who refuse to change and evolve as gaming evolves.


The "Flicking your camera around every 2 seconds cuz the obnoxious camera is retardedly too zoomed in adds skill" argument, is just making everyone dumber everytime some dota 1 purist regurgitates it.

LET IT DIE. If you really want more skill, then start making threads asking for the camera to be EVEN MORE zoomed in, cuz you want MORE camera skill to be involved.


The camera system is not fun. THE END

Your argument is weak. All you can say is that it is not fun having to move the camera around and position it correctly. Also what does the year have to do with anything? The camera distance is part of gameplay, and it is a skill requirement. If you are unable to learn to use the minimap and properly utilize the camera then stop crying about it and practice to get better. Who moves the camera around every two seconds? Once properly positioned you don't need to move it much at all, except if you are really good and constantly monitor other lanes, but that is beyond even me at this point.

As for evolving as gaming evolves, what kind of stupid statement is that? DOTA2 is a game like no other, there are no precedents or past games. It is one of a kind so who are you to say the camera system is not evolved when it is integral to gameplay.

It seems to me as though you are upset that you need to do more to play well, and want an easier alternative where you can get away with doing less without any consequences.

The truth of the matter is someone who has good map awareness, pays attention to the minimap, and has good camera management skills is going to be harder to gank, kill, and outlane. Zooming out would make these have a lesser impact.

Perhaps you are playing on a 4:3 ratio, in that case I cannot say anything because I am using a 16:9 aspect ratio.

But in terms of you saying "the camera system is not fun. THE END" as your main point, then I have to say it is a weak statement. It adds to the game whether you like it or not. Clearly you seem to not like the extra skill required and are tired of dying to avoidable ganks/hooks/arrows.

Zacharybinx34
07-10-2012, 10:19 AM
Your argument is weak. All you can say is that it is not fun having to move the camera around and position it correctly. Also what does the year have to do with anything? The camera distance is part of gameplay, and it is a skill requirement. If you are unable to learn to use the minimap and properly utilize the camera then stop crying about it and practice to get better. Who moves the camera around every two seconds? Once properly positioned you don't need to move it much at all, except if you are really good and constantly monitor other lanes, but that is beyond even me at this point.

As for evolving as gaming evolves, what kind of stupid statement is that? DOTA2 is a game like no other, there are no precedents or past games. It is one of a kind so who are you to say the camera system is not evolved when it is integral to gameplay.

It seems to me as though you are upset that you need to do more to play well, and want an easier alternative where you can get away with doing less without any consequences.

The truth of the matter is someone who has good map awareness, pays attention to the minimap, and has good camera management skills is going to be harder to gank, kill, and outlane. Zooming out would make these have a lesser impact.

Perhaps you are playing on a 4:3 ratio, in that case I cannot say anything because I am using a 16:9 aspect ratio.

But in terms of you saying "the camera system is not fun. THE END" as your main point, then I have to say it is a weak statement. It adds to the game whether you like it or not. Clearly you seem to not like the extra skill required and are tired of dying to avoidable ganks/hooks/arrows.

I am playing in 16:9 ratio, and the camera sucks. This required "SKILL" for moving the camera is not fun - and since it's not fun I want it changed.

my argument is not weak, things that are not fun should be changed when it comes to video games.

smashfury
07-10-2012, 10:33 PM
I am playing in 16:9 ratio, and the camera sucks. This required "SKILL" for moving the camera is not fun - and since it's not fun I want it changed.

my argument is not weak, things that are not fun should be changed when it comes to video games.

what if other people thought it was fine?

nicoman
07-11-2012, 06:23 AM
I am playing in 16:9 ratio, and the camera sucks. This required "SKILL" for moving the camera is not fun - and since it's not fun I want it changed.

my argument is not weak, things that are not fun should be changed when it comes to video games.

With that logic, dying is not fun. Therefore Valve should remove deaths. Losing gold is not fun either, therefore Valve should remove gold loss. Losing is also not fun, therefore Valve should remove losing.

Do you see where I am going with this?

The camera view distance is part of gameplay just like all the things I mentioned above. It won't change.

You don't base everything on a "fun" factor when making a game, especially when it is not universally accepted to be unfun. Not to mention how it impacts balance. Many people, including myself, enjoy the extra aspect of skill required, whereas you obviously do not.

4saken.infinity
08-08-2012, 03:49 PM
http://dota2tools.blogspot.com/2012/07/dota-2-test.html

Okay there is a mod for this out there. And people are going to use it. Valve needs to decide now what to do with this. I don't want this in the game and this should be considered cheating and if at all possible, completely disabled.

TalakHallen6191
08-09-2012, 10:22 PM
http://dota2tools.blogspot.com/2012/07/dota-2-test.html

Okay there is a mod for this out there. And people are going to use it. Valve needs to decide now what to do with this. I don't want this in the game and this should be considered cheating and if at all possible, completely disabled.

I would absolutely not use this unless you want to get VAC banned.

Highlanderpl
08-09-2012, 11:01 PM
i strongly support the zoom out feature, we should be able to zoo out from where we want to where we desire

Rugz
08-10-2012, 04:12 AM
i strongly support the zoom out feature, we should be able to zoo out from where we want to where we desire

Those are the same place.

Jasmine
08-10-2012, 12:04 PM
Let's start out with number 1, you're not one too many to have or not have so it doesn't matter if you want to play the game or not, no disrespect or anything. Number 2, the game is free so you don't have to buy it. Number 3, camera adjustment percent makes the game imbalance. As always, just go work on your map awareness and you should be fine.

Homerbomer
08-11-2012, 02:27 PM
-1!


OP: All of your points.. heck the whole post is wrong.




I will not buy Dota 2 with the current zoom height limit. I find the excessive camera movement unnecessary. The screen feels congested at times. I would rather focus more on my hero (fun) and less on fighting the camera (not so fun). I mean this sincerely and I believe having a higher zoom height maximum will actually make the game more competitive and more playable at the same time.

The primary argument for keeping the zoom level so close to the ground is that it increases the skill cap of the game. This is only true when looking at zoom level in a vacuum and not considering other aspects of having a higher max zoom level. I'll keep this simple by laying out several points I feel must be considered.

1. last hitting and accurate targeting becomes slightly more difficult as you are zoomed out farther. The relative size of the models are smaller thus requiring more accuracy. Good players will stand out because they can maintain their accuracy and speed even at a higher zoom.

2. All players will gain a quicker sense of their immediate surroundings with a higher zoom height. Some say this makes the game easier but in reality it will make the most important aspect of the game more critical. It shifts some of the micromanagement burden from camera management to hero management. Ganks in some situations become more difficult to pull off. Team fights naturally become more coordinated when you can see more of the battle at a glance. This will make tactical positioning and coordinated execution more important in all fights.

3. The game becomes more accessible in a good way. The newer players will be more aware of their immediate surroundings. Players that didn't grow up on RTS games that might be excellent at hero management but poor at camera management will become more competitive. The top players will remain the top players but overall the games will be better.

4. The disadvantage of the Dire side because of the camera angle showing more of whats behind them will be slightly lessened. Currently the Dire side player must move the camera more to see as far South as a Radiant player would see North but with less camera movement.

I can honestly say I enjoy the game much more by using the cliffs to zoom my camera out more. Based on other threads about this subject I am not alone in wanting more zoom height. With fog of war I can't see any reason outside of engine limitations to not allow any level of zoom. However I would be happy with a max height equal to what using the cliffs bug to it's maximum effect offers.

Dota2 is and will be F2P as said by the developers.

Moving the camera is necessary. In Dota1 it was possible to juke. Now in Dota2 it seems like who got more movement speed. Changing height zoom is just like > > right click, and watch while you get a kill.
Fucking no.

Your hero is not the fun. Play some games and tell me where you got the fun from... looking at your hero? getting kills with your hero? No. It's those moments where you do stuff with teammates.

It won't make the game more competitive, just retarded. For reasons explained above and below. Playable? Hell no.

1. Simply and utterly wrong. Someone explained how this is wrong in another post in this thread.

2. No ganks... lovely. Hero management and camera management... not that hard brother. Practice in bot games.

3. Wrong, wrong and wrong.

4. Easier for Dire to gank up (moving from down) on you mid-late game.. opposite thing for Radiant.

Zacharybinx34
08-17-2012, 09:40 AM
Camera management isn't hard just annoying.

Fix the stupid camera distance now.

kirves
08-27-2012, 04:06 AM
I have to revert my opinion. Months back, I quit League of Legends to focus solely on DOTA2. I was switching back and forth between the two to appeal to different friends and wasn't really good at either, so I was in limbo trying to figure out which to play. Months now without playing League, I've gotten used to the zoom distance in DOTA2. It's not that I've "tolerated" it. It's that I haven't been playing League of Legends to have a flawed expectation of what the ideal screen zoom should be.

What's the issue with the screen being so apparently zoomed? What does it satisfy by zooming the screen out more. Do you want to be able to see more? That would be a terrible idea. Heroes like Pudge and Puck and the like would lose their niche. The fog of war would still be the same, which you guys think would be enough to justify the zoom out, but then things like vision wards become more powerful. You have more time to react to enemies. You have more time to dodge a hook that a Pudge who, even though he's visible due to the ward, could still maybe get off if you positioned poorly in response to him.

And when fog of war is not an issue, Kunkka's ship and torrent would be telegraphed. Lesh's stun would be telegraphed. Sand King's channel would be telegraphed. Zooming the game out means these heroes have to play further back or more into fog to avoid telegraphing their abilities, which then make them redundant because they'd be so out of position to follow up. If you guys want to complain that having to "tolerate" screen zoom is an "artificial difficulty" then I could just as easily suggest that having to completely alter the way I play because I can't hide in certain spots anymore thanks to the exploitation of a higher zoom and vision is not "more challenging" but just "artificial difficulty" as well.

The screen is the optimal distance in that it allows you enough room with your hero centered without stepping on the toes of heroes that rely on ganks and/or briefly channeling an ability even when in the fog of war. The screen zoom encourages proper positioning, map awareness, and sticking together. It indirectly encourages core aspects of the game, that you might not even have realized. Zooming the screen out sounds good on paper, but there are dozens upon dozens of hidden consequences. It would quite literally change the way DOTA is played.

So instead of changing how DOTA is played, which is arguably good, it's easier if you just change the way you expect the game to handle; which at this point is in the direction of taking all of the action out of it, slowing it down, and making it more passive.

EDIT: Let me add that you should never be concerned with your hero unless they're in danger. You should be making sure you don't get into danger by moving the camera about. The more you play the game, the more you'll get used to knowing where to position the camera to anticipate your own movements and enemies, and the paranoia you have that makes you want to cling to your hero will vanish as you become more experienced. That paranoia encourages, as I said above, map awareness, buying wards, and playing together with your team. It's a good thing.

Homerbomer
08-27-2012, 04:11 AM
I have to revert my opinion. Months back, I quit League of Legends to focus solely on DOTA2. I was switching back and forth between the two to appeal to different friends and wasn't really good at either, so I was in limbo trying to figure out which to play. Months now without playing League, I've gotten used to the zoom distance in DOTA2. It's not that I've "tolerated" it. It's that I haven't been playing League of Legends to have a flawed expectation of what the ideal screen zoom should be.

What's the issue with the screen being so apparently zoomed? What does it satisfy by zooming the screen out more. Do you want to be able to see more? That would be a terrible idea. Heroes like Pudge and Puck and the like would lose their niche. The fog of war would still be the same, which you guys think would be enough to justify the zoom out, but then things like vision wards become more powerful. You have more time to react to enemies. You have more time to dodge a hook that a Pudge who, even though he's visible due to the ward, could still maybe get off if you positioned poorly in response to him.

And when fog of war is not an issue, Kunkka's ship and torrent would be telegraphed. Lesh's stun would be telegraphed. Sand King's channel would be telegraphed. Zooming the game out means these heroes have to play further back or more into fog to avoid telegraphing their abilities, which then make them redundant because they'd be so out of position to follow up. If you guys want to complain that having to "tolerate" screen zoom is an "artificial difficulty" then I could just as easily suggest that having to completely alter the way I play because I can't hide in certain spots anymore thanks to the exploitation of a higher zoom and vision is not "more challenging" but just "artificial difficulty" as well.

The screen is the optimal distance in that it allows you enough room with your hero centered without stepping on the toes of heroes that rely on ganks and/or briefly channeling an ability even when in the fog of war. The screen zoom encourages proper positioning, map awareness, and sticking together. It indirectly encourages core aspects of the game, that you might not even have realized. Zooming the screen out sounds good on paper, but there are dozens upon dozens of hidden consequences. It would quite literally change the way DOTA is played.

So instead of changing how DOTA is played, which is arguably good, it's easier if you just change the way you expect the game to handle; which at this point is in the direction of taking all of the action out of it, slowing it down, and making it more passive.


Aside from you playing LoL and trying to choose between it and DotA2, you are my master.

kirves
08-27-2012, 04:20 AM
Additionally, League of Legend's screen isn't as zoomed in as DOTA's because it's comfortable to the player. It's not as zoomed in because you literally need that extra room to deal with how easily people slip away from you with shit like Ghost, Flash, Cleanse, Quicksilver Sash, and the other escape abilities in the game and the fact that there's no hard crowd control in the game that punishes bad positioning. The hardest slow in that game is 5 seconds of 35% as/ms debuff, and the longest stun is like 3.5 seconds and functions like Mirana's arrow translating distance to duration.

Kusariyaro
09-05-2012, 05:52 AM
LoL is plain trash version of DotA;
Dota2 Is everything I wanted it to be; Pure epic experience;

psalm
09-05-2012, 10:59 AM
Personally I think that they should at least try it. Implement it for a while, see what the response is. I don't feel it is a good idea to keep the camera zoomed in the way it is simply because that was the limitation of DOTA. This is DOTA 2 and they should take advantage of not having to function under the constraints of the WC3 engine. They did it with the shop and that was fine.. try the camera too.

kirves
09-05-2012, 12:15 PM
Personally I think that they should at least try it. Implement it for a while, see what the response is. I don't feel it is a good idea to keep the camera zoomed in the way it is simply because that was the limitation of DOTA. This is DOTA 2 and they should take advantage of not having to function under the constraints of the WC3 engine. They did it with the shop and that was fine.. try the camera too.

Saying "they should at least try it" implies they notice there's a problem and are stubborn about it. There is *no problem*. That's why they haven't changed it despite overwhelming complaints. Don't fix what isn't broken. The current screen height is not a ported "limitation" of the original engine. It's a ported part of the game, period. It's an integral part of what contributes to the DOTA experience.

pglppasarel
09-06-2012, 03:57 AM
i guess people feel the need to zoom out because of the Dota2 engine. i feel the same thing in dota2, and i didn't feel this need in dota1. the problem is not necesarly the camera height, it's how the engine works, u see dota2 is a 3d not like izometric dota1. here u have the problem that u have to click the lowest part of an unit if u want to select it, and because the units are very tall, u miss a lot of ground spells if u don't have the hero in the center of the screen when u cast the ground spell near him. i am pretty sure if valve can solve this problems, a lot of people won't feel the need to zoom out.

Wiener
09-06-2012, 08:30 PM
Why are there two threads about the same thing? http://http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=7008

BourbonX
09-06-2012, 09:23 PM
I think this feature is useful for broadcaster as they will provide us a wider view of the action.

sureis
09-30-2012, 07:47 PM
Why shouldn't I be able to zoom out the whole map? Zooming out is easy on the graphics. Whoever told you that zooming out improved art or gameplay was making it up.. Think about it... zooming restrictions are restrictiive and 44% yes pleases vs 55% dont really cares says 1 thing and it's not, "That 55% not bother is a real tidal wave of opinion." AND BESIDES, this is the dev forum not the gameplay forum. Hold a vote here as binding and you're just messing

teeming01
10-01-2012, 12:20 AM
Just for spectators mode please.

Ghostface
10-06-2012, 12:42 PM
this is more of a balance issue rather than an interface issue, and you should discuss this over at playdota.com
there are certain issues with camera distance modification on the metagame, for instance: dodging a pudge hook or mirana arrow

with that said:

why cant people learn to hone the skill of camera movement? its an important skill for
many aspects of the game like juking, chasing, spell casting and spell dodging.

i feel like this thread is more of QQ'ing on how hard dota2 is and how people want it to be easier.
if youre an original dota1 player, you wouldnt even cosider creating this thread because
youve already learned the skill camera management. for the newcomers QQing about this,
your statement is similar to a person asking for a magina nerf because hes too OP yet you dont
know, or have not learned the skill in countering him.

the camera was set that way for you to learn map awareness.
if youre pushing a lane with your team and an enemy sandking (where you have vision btw, because "the fog is there for a reason" argument is invalid)
is about to epi > blink into you team, as tiny with a blink dagger, you either
A: are too focused destroying the tower to not notice sandking (where you have vision btw), he epis, boom, half your squad is dead
B: you saw him on the minimap, moved the camera to his location and sees hes casting epi, blink > avalanche > toss, you just saved your team

or

C: you were too much of a pussy to learn camera management, instead downloaded a hack to zoom out,
sees SK casting epi because hey, you can see everything at this point, blink in > ava > toss, you just saved your team.

Now tell me, did your camera management skills save you team?
Were your map awareness so good that you saved your team?
Did you even have that super awesome skill that you felt SK was nearby casting epi?

no, you did it because your map awareness was changed to an "easier" and "funner" version

newcomers dont just come into a game and demand changes because the game doesnt suit
their wants and needs. if youre going to QQ about the zoom level, at least make a
decent paragraph explaining how justified the zoom out level is and how it will affect the
gameplay. dont just be that asshole that says "OMG CAMERA SO CLOSE, BUFF PLS!!!!!!!111!111!!!"

Nixxer
10-07-2012, 03:13 AM
I like it how it is now. There will always be crying about this. Camera movement is one aspect and makes a huge different.

Second: Valve would be stupid to change that, because the further out the less you can see custommodels = no one would buy anyhing = no money.

Third: If IceFrog wanted to change camerazoom then he would have done this long time ago in Dota 1. If you want to give a suggestion go to playdota.com.


Last: Dota 2 will be free to play, no need to buy it dude.