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View Full Version : Cosmetic items need to follow the original models' color schemes and overall style



Bleako
06-04-2012, 03:48 PM
I really enjoy some of the cosmetic items found in the game. Many of them, like Sven's or Nature's Prophet, are actually pretty well done. However, while looking through the DotA 2 Workshop items, I've noticed that a couple of them are either notably hated by the community or feel like they don't seem to 'fit'. Here is why I believe this happens.

Cosmetic items need to, first and foremost, use the base model as a template of sorts. They need to be lore-friendly as much as possible... and for the sake of gameplay the items also need to have the same overall shape and set of colors as the original model. Not to say that Sven can't have a Spartan-type helmet, but the players need to instantly and effortlessly recognize the hero no matter which cosmetic item the hero is sporting. Also, each hero has a particular "style"... and all cosmetic items should reflect them. Sven should look like a masked knight, Witch Doctor should look like a tribalistic shaman, Pudge should look like someone who likes to cut meat. Heroes without helmets should remain so; if Anti-Mage suddenly appears next to you, you might not recognize him if he's wearing a top hat and pimp clothes.

Sven's cosmetic items all follow these rules and are perfect examples of how cosmetic items should be.


http://i.imgur.com/S8K89.png

However, for some heroes, this is not the case. For instance, Broodmother's Blademother set changes her into a 8-legged robot which is definitely not lore-friendly. Nature Prophet's Prophet of Peace set gives him clothes and a weapon that have a largely different set of colors than his base model's. Arguably, Ursa's Alpine set has a ridiculous-looking hat.


http://i.imgur.com/iRSZx.png

All in all, I believe all the cosmetic items should add pieces of equipment to the original model that fit with the character's color scheme, shape, style and lore... and this needs to be a requirement for choosing which community-made items go into the game, and not just their popularity.

Porre
06-04-2012, 04:02 PM
I Agree!

+1

Vi3trice
06-04-2012, 04:08 PM
Um, does that rule out my totem?


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9068188/Woodland_Totem512.jpg

Instead of being stone, it's wood. It follows ES's own scheme, but not the pillar.

str33th00ps
06-04-2012, 05:26 PM
a liil off topic but that brood thing you posted is amazing id buy that lol, that skin alone would make me play brood more often

Bleako
06-04-2012, 05:45 PM
Um, does that rule out my totem?

Instead of being stone, it's wood. It follows ES's own scheme, but not the pillar.

It's fine, because his model mainly uses gray, red, orange and brown shades. Which your totem also uses. Also, it's awesome.

wesai
06-04-2012, 05:52 PM
This a goo topic OP, also concise which is pretty much straight forward. Item modelers need to read this thread before going nuts with colors and themes.

I agree with everything you said and I hope items follow the hero themes, colors and silhouette. Changing the hero silhouette with crazy items is bad too.

Wanna make a item? Go read the lore first. These heroes' lores have an evolving atmosphere which pretty much tells us their personality and what kind of items they would wear. Their current default items tells us a lot and should always be used as a guide into modelling new stuff. :p

Primrose~
06-04-2012, 07:22 PM
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/35902819/Winner%20Winner%2C%20human%20dinner.png

Does this work fine according to your standards OP? This is just a paintover as of the moment and will be a model in due time.

GreyPowerVan
06-04-2012, 08:23 PM
I agree completely, OP. If it's not 100% that i know which hero it is instantly, I don't think it has a place in dota. Of course, I also want a way to disable cosmetics in tournament matches, so...

Monsterlord
06-04-2012, 11:03 PM
This topic has a good point, although the examples given are pretty poor. All three of those heroes are instantly recognisable because of how they stand, their general proportions, and their movements. The lack of red on the Blademother outfit will not make her difficult to spot. The huge webs and massive, 8-legged model kind of gives her away. There is absolutely no way the Pangolin Gondar is going to catch you off guard because his scarf is a different colour. Furion still has horns, pale greens and blues, and an awkward way of standing.

Quite frankly, you're an idiot if you can't tell who any of these heroes are on sight.

If you do think that matters, consider the original Dota. Did people ever lose track of a hero like Earthshaker because his totem runes might be orange instead of blue? Of course not.

While we're on the topic of the Blademother skin, though, saying it isn't lore-friendly in a setting with lasers, heat-seeking missiles and personal helicopters is a bite ridiculous. However, I will agree that it's currently a bit too futuristic; if it was to be implemented into the game I would like to see the reactor-style abdomen replaced with something a bit more steampunk, like a furnace or visible engine.

Overall, though, the point made is correct. Hero cosmetics must not change the model's outline drastically.

Pbfamous
06-05-2012, 01:40 AM
agree with point, and agree that examples aren't the best, it is massively important for Valve to keep the overall design schemes in mind, otherwise workshop will be filled with junk. ^^those designs look great gw.

Shibubu
06-05-2012, 11:05 AM
While we're on the topic of the Blademother skin, though, saying it isn't lore-friendly in a setting with lasers, heat-seeking missiles and personal helicopters is a bite ridiculous. However, I will agree that it's currently a bit too futuristic; if it was to be implemented into the game I would like to see the reactor-style abdomen replaced with something a bit more steampunk, like a furnace or visible engine.

I do believe you are mixing lore with overall atmosphere of the game. According to Tinkers LORE, he was always fond of mechanics and made his equipment himself. Broods lore, though, states that she is a organic being that is trying to rid the world of "intruders" that could harm her little spider_children. Atmosphere wise, robo_brood is not as an abomination as mountain_boy_ursa is, but her LORE is against it.

nicoman
06-05-2012, 11:39 AM
It's only a matter of time really. As much as I agree with you, the fact remains there is already Pirate Tide, and the Axecutioner in the game. Not to mention the ridiculous stuff tide puts on his head. Unfortunately cosmetics will not respect colour schemes and lores.

Axe was commander of an army (that he ended up killing anyways lol) but there is no mention of him ever executing people through decapitation like an executioner. Also lots of people think his ultimate is decapitation, when it is called Culling blade.

Definition of Cull: to choose; select; pick. And in the tooltip it even says "Axe spots weakness and strikes, dealing moderate damage but instantly killing an enemy unit with low health." Meaning he strikes a weak point to kill his enemy. Again no mention of decapitation.

Anyways, good post I fully support it, but realistically it will not happen seeing the current things that have been released.

Although GreenMarine pointed out they didn't want to release a Hammer item for Axe because they weren't sure it would make sense. So there is always a little hope.

talizorah
06-05-2012, 11:56 AM
Honestly most of you are being a little too anal and picky about this. As long as the hero is recognizable and the items aren't something ridiculous like top hats, clown masks, etc. it should be put in the game if it is of high quality. The Axecutioner skin is awesome, same with the robot spider, both are well done and both still make the heroes instantly recognizable.

Evol
06-05-2012, 12:04 PM
+1 for this. Even now it's hard to understand where is axe, where is sven when model is totally changed. What will be later, I'm scared to imagine that.

Monsterlord
06-05-2012, 12:47 PM
I do believe you are mixing lore with overall atmosphere of the game. According to Tinkers LORE, he was always fond of mechanics and made his equipment himself. Broods lore, though, states that she is a organic being that is trying to rid the world of "intruders" that could harm her little spider_children. Atmosphere wise, robo_brood is not as an abomination as mountain_boy_ursa is, but her LORE is against it.

Lore is quite a minor part of the game. If you took it seriously, you would refuse to play certain heroes alongside each other, refuse to play them on the wrong team, or aim to kill a rival hero at all costs, such as Tide and Kunkka. Additionally, it can be rewritten, either through the main lore or the item description.

-----


It's only a matter of time really. As much as I agree with you, the fact remains there is already Pirate Tide, and the Axecutioner in the game. Not to mention the ridiculous stuff tide puts on his head. Unfortunately cosmetics will not respect colour schemes and lores.

Pirate Tide is explained quite explicitly as using wrecked ships to create those items, which makes perfect sense considering his main rival is an admiral. Axe as an executioner is also well-fitting because chopping heads is what he does, both in lore and in-game.

There's nothing wrong with Tide's hats either. The shark is a throwback to his old model. The pirate hat, while admittedly is rather silly, is still made out of sails and used to taunt sailors, so is again suited. The skull is simple enough, while the octopus could be viewed as some kind of tribute to his god.

Colour schemes are hardly an issue right now, and they're one that can be addressed very easily.


Axe was commander of an army (that he ended up killing anyways lol) but there is no mention of him ever executing people through decapitation like an executioner. Also lots of people think his ultimate is decapitation, when it is called Culling blade.

His rise through the ranks was helped by the fact that he never hesitated to decapitate a superior.

Decapitation absolutely is his signature move. It's also the most sure-fire way to kill someone on the spot.

-----


Even now it's hard to understand where is axe, where is sven when model is totally changed.

Try playing with your eyes open. The heroes are instantly recognisable from stance and animations alone.

Timbonator
06-05-2012, 01:44 PM
Absolutely agree with OP's post, I hope Valve will go this road.

Remich
06-05-2012, 07:25 PM
I don't believe it's necessary to follow colour schemes or armour/body schemes to keep the items looking good. All that needs to to be done is items need to be RELEVANT. The set needs to be relevant to the hero, the toga like object for Prophet doesn't look bad, but the robot parts for Brood lack taste or finesse. This is mostly because the Prophet set is relevant to Prophet, it looks well on him and it doesn't clash with his design or character. In the future I wouldn't mind seeing something, for example, an armour set for Prophet, but keep in mind with Prophet's character it would most likely have to be a low quality material that makes the armour like leather because it pertains to his design.

HODOR
06-05-2012, 09:44 PM
T-Down, it's incredibly boring and defeats the purpose of cosmetic items entirely if all heroes all keep the same color scheme. If you don't personally like an item/item set, don't use it.

Get ready for stuff like Lava/Radioactive Morphling (red/green), it will come eventually.

gotenwinz99
06-05-2012, 09:59 PM
If you do think that matters, consider the original Dota. Did people ever lose track of a hero like Earthshaker because his totem runes might be orange instead of blue? Of course not.



^ this

mech broodmother will not make him hard to recognize although i agree it's too futuristic
sven stuff seems fine to me as sven still looks like sven

and morph do change color when morphing into agi or str in dota 1

ChrisCTX
06-05-2012, 11:47 PM
T-Down, it's incredibly boring and defeats the purpose of cosmetic items entirely if all heroes all keep the same color scheme. If you don't personally like an item/item set, don't use it.

Get ready for stuff like Lava/Radioactive Morphling (red/green), it will come eventually.

This, while I support keeping part of the hero clearly identifying him as said hero, there should be a good healthy margin to allow variation and originality.

m4rx
06-06-2012, 12:00 AM
Hi OP
How about this link (http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Gyrocopter) it will make dota lore broken because have Homing Missile like rocket launcher?

rasielll
06-06-2012, 12:57 AM
+1 thread, but Bounty Hunter is still good, because red is not so often used in his skin.
Pudge in capron is ok

Squawks
06-06-2012, 01:22 AM
Well, if you think Bounty Hunter's scarf changing colour is big, you can't really say "all of Sven's items follow his color scheme", as his Swordmaster of the Vigil set makes his armour burgundy and white instead of just gray... I'd say the pangolin set is more honest to BH's general colour scheme (earth tones, green skin, gray blades) than Sven's swormaster set. I'm just quibbling here, ofc, but so are you.

If an orca Tidehunter or a red caped Invoker would confuse a player, they probably are at a stage of learning where they have difficulty knowing which hero is which, and what their skills do anyway. I recognize heroes by their stature, movement, and overall item set. When I recognize BH, the red scarf is not the trigger (you honestly barely even see that thing ingame), but rather the fact that he is a feline goblin kinda guy packing a bunch of blades. The Furion example in the OP still has the same posture, a big old staff, horns etc. making it easily recognizable. The sexy stripper outfit for Invoker (those who've looked at the workshop probably know what I'm talking about) is absolute balls, and an example of what I would consider too much off the mark.

And the lore... I don't know why that small piece of flavour text would be the absolute guideline as to what can be done. I can play with Kunkka and Tide on the same team and not feel all bummed out because that might not be legitimate lorewise. There isn't much to go by as for lore anyway, just small pieces that leave a lot of things open. The game already has so much quirky humour and a weird setting that make it hard to take everything super seriously. Ursa in a hat? Why not? If we want to be really, really nitpicky, nothing in Brood's lore or the general world of the game absolutely rules out the possibility of making a steampunk cyborg skin for her. Giving Drow a rifle would be silly, but there is and should be some leeway as for what can be done stylistically.