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View Full Version : Ramp and fog issues



pjlworld
11-22-2011, 01:05 AM
Mid felt differently, so I went about fooling around finding some discrepancies between both games, and found this. See and judge for yourselves:

http://i.imgur.com/5VVMT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kWU0R.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Uj2px.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9sFJN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bpXHf.jpg


It seems that in WC3, if you are over a certain point of Z-axis (which seems to be at a rather low threshold), you get vision over the ramp.
These little bumps also helps. The Sentinel side has them as well (see the two shaded areas of Sent's ramp?)

http://i.imgur.com/9fJhT.jpg



I think there's more about mid than just this, but this is a start.

Diabolic
11-23-2011, 12:26 AM
Same thing bothers me a lot.

!fixthis

pjlworld
11-23-2011, 05:28 AM
This changes the mid metagame a lot. And I do mean a lot. But this is not limited to what happens middle obviously, but anywhere with a ramp involved with fog of war. I think this vastly changes how the game "feels" when making the transition from DotA 1 to 2. I think there's more than this issue when it comes to the weirdness I felt in mid lane. However, though I have some sort of an idea, I must play more and run more tests to be sure.

xicoloco
11-24-2011, 04:58 PM
i i like more the new way ... fells more real ...

Yuuhuu
11-24-2011, 06:05 PM
Actualy me to like new way ! But it needs to be jugged by pro players is it bad or good

xicoloco
11-25-2011, 08:59 AM
like counter strike 1.6 there still people in comunitty who dont use counter strike source because the felling is diferent ... very funny, but i doubt anyone will still in dota with dota2 in open beta ...

pjlworld
11-25-2011, 02:26 PM
I think how much one likes this or does not means little. It's about getting it right with DotA 1. Unless, this is what Icefrog intends, in which case, as players, we just play the game as is and learn to live with it.

pglppasarel
11-26-2011, 05:58 AM
i hate this 2, fix it! dota2 should be identical in mechanics with dota1, don't understand why they make 1000 changes of the game, this is the main reason HoN failed to atract the dota1 comunity, "allmost" same game but very different cuz of so called "small" changes.

Hemick
11-27-2011, 03:47 PM
i hate this 2, fix it! dota2 should be identical in mechanics with dota1, don't understand why they make 1000 changes of the game, this is the main reason HoN failed to atract the dota1 comunity, "allmost" same game but very different cuz of so called "small" changes.
I don't know anyone that plays DotA over HoN because the map is slightly different. Generally it's because of something they dislike about the heroes or balance of the game, or for that matter a lack of a hero.

The game will evolve with Dota 2, players should expect a lot of things to change.

EmeraldWarden
11-27-2011, 11:46 PM
Personally i LOVE HoN over DoTA. HoN really has much better graphics and better heroes. It is more fast-paced as well. Dota 1 is really, really, slow.... Dota 2 is addictive though for some reason.

MrDeadcruel
11-28-2011, 12:49 AM
Pretty much agree with op , but please dont make tis into lol or hon this is a dota port

pglppasarel
11-29-2011, 12:05 AM
"because the map is slightly different" this is not a slightly change, it makes the game feel different for the ordinary players, and changes the game a lot for proplayers. i personaly like the hon engine,camera view,small hitbox models for heroes, better then the actual dota2, because it is very similar with dota1. i know a lot of people that don't like dota2 because of this things,and i know this cuz i am in a tight relationship with the romanian dota comunity, i am not talking about 3 people i am talkin about 100-200 . but i do hope u are right and there will be changes in the future, i guess now they concentrate their work on another part of the game, that's why a lot of bugs known are still existing.

denmax
11-30-2011, 11:19 AM
IceFrog is still the team manager. If he wants it like this, he gets it. The only reason why DotA is what it is is because WC3 engine accepts it as such. /srs


And yeah, Valve should be sorry about making changes. When you make a sequel, you have to make EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the game to be the same as the previous one! Oh, and not only that! Let's participate in BETA and just PLAY PLAY PLAY and COMPLAIN COMPLAIN COMPLAIN instead of submitting actual bugs, which we are supposed to be doing in a BETA phase game!

Ai-nyan
11-30-2011, 11:42 AM
DotA 2 was supposed to be almost identical, except for fixing inconveniences and bugs such as windwalk interfering with crits and bashes. IceFrog said that himself, and what we have now doesn't live up to his words, though still might get changed, but these are the things that should have been done right from the start.

pglppasarel
12-03-2011, 02:03 AM
@demax , i wonder how many % from the actual available steam accounts with dota2 are posting here :D. the bad thing on forum is that u post a bug, and get no answer from an operator. i posted 3-4 threads and got no replay, although there were obvious bugs and tested. what i mean is , if i post that a hexed pudge with rot activated does 0 dmg and slow in dota1, and in dota2 it works while hexed, i need an answer if it is intendend or it has a small priority and it will be fixed in the future. this way u will know what kind of bugs are they searching now, and focus on them so we can make dota2 a better game faster.
@ai-nyan i perfectly agree with u

mmzin
12-03-2011, 07:20 PM
@pglppasarel

I was thinking about this too, about the things people post and we end up with no response, so its impossible to know if this was intendend or a bug. But we have to think that they have a giant flux of feedback going on right now, and It's impossible to response every single thread.

About the topic, it's strange at D2 but feels real, so because of that I feel like its something right to keep. Both ways pleases me, but its like 51% the new one and 49% the old way.

akaHideinlight
12-05-2011, 11:39 AM
I don't know anyone that plays DotA over HoN because the map is slightly different. Generally it's because of something they dislike about the heroes or balance of the game, or for that matter a lack of a hero.

The game will evolve with Dota 2, players should expect a lot of things to change.

Good point, it's always about the balance of the heroes or the way the company runs the game. Btw where's the pro players and developers opinions on these kind of things, I honestly have no idea what direction DOTA2 wants to go. HoN developers were way more open and transparent about issues like this. Making a 1:1 copy of a flawed game will give you flawed results.

Zapple
12-05-2011, 11:56 AM
If this was unintentional, I would expect them to do something about it. It truly does change a lot.

sterls
12-05-2011, 12:00 PM
i've noticed that dota2 is a little bit less forgiving when it comes to vision on around ramps, maybe its an intended change that was difficult to do in wc3.

bOne7
12-05-2011, 03:08 PM
This need to be changed for sure! Port it just as it was in DotA1 , this is a basic characteristic to the DotA game , the map MUST in my opinion respect the same sizes , fog thing , and even tree layout ( Trees in DotA2 are harder to eat + juke than in DotA1 )

Razp
12-05-2011, 07:14 PM
I like the new way.

Seren
12-06-2011, 04:25 PM
It makes mid a lot scarier without wards on the opposite side of river, that's for sure.

psalm
12-06-2011, 04:51 PM
Personally I don't mind it much. However I do think that the high ground should allow visibility to the area below. When you are down in the river it makes sense that you can't see up, but if you are up above, you should be able to see the river below.

541
12-07-2011, 10:08 AM
i agree this needs to be changed..i play Dota 2 believing it would be a port of Dota 1..
things like this are one of the reasons why i play dota instead of hon or lol..
the gameplay differs if these are changed

Opran
01-26-2012, 12:48 PM
I like the new way,

spektor
01-26-2012, 02:36 PM
DotA 2 was supposed to be almost identical, except for fixing inconveniences and bugs such as windwalk interfering with crits and bashes. IceFrog said that himself, and what we have now doesn't live up to his words, though still might get changed, but these are the things that should have been done right from the start.
Source please. All I can find is this excerpt from initial Q&A (http://blog.dota2.com/2010/11/dota-2-qa/):

Q: Donít you think you should make a lot of changes to the gameplay? (by Robert)
A: Significant changes would not necessarily make it a better game. There are countless features we are building around the game that will make the experience a much better one. The gameplay itself, though, has always evolved step by step, and it will continue with that methodology. We consider this a long term project, in the same way DotA has always been. We want to provide a quality experience and not just change for the sake of change. Youíll naturally see additions and improvements to the game as time passes, but it would be a natural progression aimed at improving the game for the players and not for other arbitrary reasons. Valve and I strongly believe that the player focused development process the game has gone through is what will allow us to continue making the best decisions with regards to where we spend our development time.
You and the likes of you are what's wrong with this community. Any little change is taken with extreme hostility. It's literally over the forums: "hurr durr we don't need dis new sheet giv us dota with new graphics" or, even more often, "derp it's from lol/hon it's bad". No weighted arguments, just plain hate for changes.

Kuchiyose
01-26-2012, 11:05 PM
Dota 2 is meant to be similar enough to Dota 1 where you can just start playing Dota 2 and after a couple games, pretty much get the hang of everything. It has done that already. It isn't suppose to be an exact replicate with just improved graphics. It just isn't suppose to be dramatically different. Lets say they made Dota 2 exactly like Dota 1. Then after they decided to make some balance changes in future updates. Would you argue and qq that it changed? That is exactly what they are doing now, just implementing some changes right away instead of porting the old then changing it, since that is just a waste of time. Some things aren't intended, thus people report it and they would probably end up changing it. Other things are intended, and you just gotta accept it instead of using the same argument about it being different from Dota 1 constantly.

pjlworld
01-27-2012, 08:20 PM
Source please. All I can find is this excerpt from initial Q&A (http://blog.dota2.com/2010/11/dota-2-qa/):

You and the likes of you are what's wrong with this community. Any little change is taken with extreme hostility. It's literally over the forums: "hurr durr we don't need dis new sheet giv us dota with new graphics" or, even more often, "derp it's from lol/hon it's bad". No weighted arguments, just plain hate for changes.

This is rude and ignorant. I don't know how you can blatantly make statements like this thinking it's really true.

The current fog mechanic in relation to the ramp does make the game different. Especially that of a early mid lane meta. It provides a safer cover and makes heroes like Viper less threatening. I don't mind changes as long as they have a good rationale behind it. For example, being able to sell the purchased items in your stash is a great idea. The current fog fog & ramp is not the result of this however, but a poor emulation of what should be.

I think any reasonable person would understand that DotA 2 will be different from DotA 1. But it will try to emulate DotA 1 as best as it can, and this thread is to point out that there's something fundamentally wrong with how fog and ramp works. It's very clear when somethings were the way they were due to the limitations of the wc3 engine (Firefly with Phase Boots and etc.), and when DotA 2 fixes it, it's alright. Because we all understand that it should never have been that way in the first place.

There are some things however that are very important. And the current fog system has a lot of issues, this being one of them. Some can't see the value of it. So be it. It doesn't concern you. If this doesn't get changed, you are content. If it does get changed, you don't care. So why does anyone have the need to come in and make rude comments that leads nowhere is beyond me.

spektor
01-28-2012, 12:21 PM
This is rude and ignorant. I don't know how you can blatantly make statements like this thinking it's really true.
I don't see how reasonable player (read: who doesn't yell "omg valve y u no do it like it was in dota" about any change) can be offended by my post. Sure, some changes can be bad and this is why the game still in beta. To test them, not to dissmiss with simple "not like in dota so no way".
But hey, i'm rude and ignorant, so why even try to read my post? It's always better to say i don't care about the game i want change in sake of change.

Reevenous
01-29-2012, 04:06 AM
Found this too.
Valve should fix it, because it changes all the mid metagame :)

Kajiya
01-31-2012, 04:57 PM
Maybe he just wants to change the metagame?
Every person who touched the World Editor in Wc3 knows that the engine is limited, the editor is powerful but there are alot of hardcoded things you just cant change. And maybe Icefrog wanted to have cliffs like this for all the years but the engine didnt allowed it. Now he can do what he wanted to do for several years.
Just adopt to it, humans are made to adopt to new situation anyway. The metagame with the cliffs changed already and pro teams already used it to their advantage by using the higher ground, even more then in dota 1.
Also "things" that cant adopt the changes just die out over some time anyway.

Ai-nyan
02-01-2012, 05:52 AM
Source please. All I can find is this excerpt from initial Q&A (http://blog.dota2.com/2010/11/dota-2-qa/):

You and the likes of you are what's wrong with this community. Any little change is taken with extreme hostility. It's literally over the forums: "hurr durr we don't need dis new sheet giv us dota with new graphics" or, even more often, "derp it's from lol/hon it's bad". No weighted arguments, just plain hate for changes.

Here's a proof, and just FUI, changes in FOW is pretty major difference to older players.


Originally Posted by IceFrog View Post
There isn't any changelog really, we've kept it up to date with the latest version of dota. Our intention is that there are no major differences, but of course the game is still in beta development.

There are relatively minor changes primarily around fixing unintended bugs, like how the tower AI sometimes ignores Bat Rider completely (only partially fixed in dota1 recently), or Phase Boots causing critical strikes and bash to malfunction while active. Another example of a bug fix from dota1 to 2 is Maelstrom proc chance never working if you did not issue an attack order explicitly. We will eventually make changes in Dota2 (remakes, new content, etc), but when we do that it will be when you guys are actively playing it and seeing/testing the changes directly.

As the tournament is being played, I'll do my best to clarify things whenever it is needed and as time allows.

http://www.playdota.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2740411&postcount=111
In this specific thread
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512292
Pretty sure Ice has said the same thing with different lines in other occasions as well.

And, no, seriously.... I have nothing against changes as long as they are rational and justified with explanation needed in cases like this.
So, a pretty please, can we have a confirmation whether these changes in FOW are intended to stay or not from a Staff member, be it Ice Frog himself or someone else?

pjlworld
02-01-2012, 07:15 PM
Keep in mind that this is Valve's first RTS with unit pathing and FOW. Whereas WC3 was Blizzard's third installment of the RTS series with years of experience. It may take Valve some time to get this correctly.

Ai-nyan
02-02-2012, 03:15 AM
It's still in Beta, ok, everyone knows that. It's just that no official stance has been set whether this is going to get fixed or not.

Zentry
10-04-2012, 10:54 PM
Any updates on this? This is a pretty substantial difference.

chunkyboy
05-21-2013, 06:07 AM
bump

kolt
08-19-2013, 12:14 PM
up

wachon1992
10-01-2013, 06:58 PM
lol just lol

2 years after this and it wasnt fixed and its not even something so big to fix... valve keeps dissapointing me. gota add those hats wich 80% arent even made by valve but the community, t hey just add em and make money and we get this things not fixed. lame lame lame