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(Remarkably) Less than 101 ways to improve bots behavior_Non-hero specific

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  • AbsoluteNoob
    replied
    Bump.

    Updated with a really annoying bug. I'm going to test out passive and very easy difficulty today.
    Also: I don't want to make a new thread but its still rather important is that...

    Can anybody provide me with bots' starting (especially mid) lane priority list? Vengeful bot is not a very good mid.

    Leave a comment:


  • AbsoluteNoob
    replied
    I've been playing the "stable" version bots and this new trend with them often pisses me off.
    Bots love to jungle. I guess its their to-do when they don't have anything to do.
    BUT - they jungle during laning phase! Then everybot in my team becomes underfarmed and underleveled.
    Happens around 10+ minute mark.

    While I do understand that at this time in an actual game its not so laning phase anymore,
    but no tower has been down yet, but the bots on MY team refuses to lane.
    Yes, it only happens on human + bot team so far. No such issue on all-bots team.
    Added this onto the main post.

    I haven't test out the new stuff at the test version yet, will do so shortly.
    (As long I don't rage because I'm lagging so badly at those test servers... grrrr)

    Leave a comment:


  • Arxos
    replied
    Originally posted by AbsoluteNoob View Post
    I don't believe this is the case. Tide bot regularly Ravage a single target.
    If you observe ally tide bot with that behavior, it is because his Ravage is on cooldown but it still decides to "feint" its initiation, even in teamfights, causing its death.
    There was a patch a while ago that made Tidehunter no longer cast Ravage on a single target. Mind you however that this limitation acts kinda weird. One would assume that single target = 1 hero, however if that 1 hero were to use Manta Style Tidehunter will instantly cast Ravage, cause there's now 3 targets. Because of that at times it's best not to activate Manta Style against Tidehunter...
    If there is only 1 target, I've never seen him cast ravage, ever.

    Leave a comment:


  • AbsoluteNoob
    replied
    Originally posted by Sly_Squash View Post
    Your advice for working towards becoming an adequate initiator by practicing on the bots is to wait for the fight to begin and then initiate?
    Do you know what initiation means?
    ...
    Oh you got me wrong, I'm not telling you how to play an initiator, I'm telling the "solution" to "solve" the current human initiation crisis with ally bots.
    This way you can minimize your raaaaaaaaaage.
    Never mind.

    Originally posted by gramathy View Post
    I think this is because Tide wants to initiate, but won't ult unless he can hit a minimum number of targets, and blinking in means he doesn't have allies around him so he doesn't try to slow you down either.
    I don't believe this is the case. Tide bot regularly Ravage a single target.
    If you observe ally tide bot with that behavior, it is because his Ravage is on cooldown but it still decides to "feint" its initiation, even in teamfights, causing its death.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    It also seems that the test server bots have problem responding to tower pushes / defends. Well I'll apply that knowledge onto the main post. Check out the new #10.
    The "using spells" before in creep range looks like a bug. Better put it onto the main post as well.
    Last edited by AbsoluteNoob; 02-26-2012, 12:55 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arxos
    replied
    Also bots are using non-targeted active spells (e.g. Razor's Plasma Field and Juggernaut's Blade Fury) when they're way behind the lines and there's nothing around to be hitting. Can't really explain that one, they never used to do it.
    Ah yes, I knew I was forgetting one.
    As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the bots will cast their spells the moment they decide to farm a creep wave, rather than when they are actually in position to do so.
    Of course, this problem does not occur with targetted spells. Like Lina casting her fire wave will still need to be in range, however abilities that instantly activate, like Juggernaut's Bladestorm and Razor's Plasma Field (I'm guessing Tidehunter's Anchor Smash is another case of this) are clicked when the decision is made, which leads to them casting those spells at really random times.

    Also, the bots seem to have some really weird decision behaviour recently. For instance, I literally just played a game in which instead of being present as the initiator for a teamfight defending bare barracks, a Tidehunter bot decided that it would be a much better idea to farm his jungle in a futile attempt to finish off his Heart. I don't remember crazy behaviour like this ever happening back around December, not sure what's changed. Either way, if the bots are sometimes supposed to imitate boneheaded human players... well, it's working.
    Previously, the bots would prioritize pushing over everything. It meant they didn't do stupid things like that, but it also meant that they never actually got much of any proper farm.
    What needs to be changed is that the bots need to analyze the situation of the entire team, rather than just themselves, so one of them doesn't just run off to finish that 1 item when the entire team is waiting for them.
    Or similarly, that the entire team decides to briefly return to farming because their carries are close to finishing their expensive ownage item.

    Leave a comment:


  • Esvandiary
    replied
    ChrisC did mention that there are plans for better ways of interacting with the bots, and I think this could help a lot.

    That said, it really feels like the bots have gone backwards in some big ways recently. For a start, beyond about 30 minutes the bots are liable to literally just wander the map, not actually doing anything unless the other team acts (and in some cases not even then).
    Bots are also liable to ignore pings entirely on a regular basis. In some cases I can understand this, but sometimes bots unquestionably should be in a fight and simply don't try and get to it.
    Also bots are using non-targeted active spells (e.g. Razor's Plasma Field and Juggernaut's Blade Fury) when they're way behind the lines and there's nothing around to be hitting. Can't really explain that one, they never used to do it.

    Also, the bots seem to have some really weird decision behaviour recently. For instance, I literally just played a game in which instead of being present as the initiator for a teamfight defending bare barracks, a Tidehunter bot decided that it would be a much better idea to farm his jungle in a futile attempt to finish off his Heart. I don't remember crazy behaviour like this ever happening back around December, not sure what's changed. Either way, if the bots are sometimes supposed to imitate boneheaded human players... well, it's working.

    (Edit since I know what the deal is now, turns out now the bot dump commands only work with cheats enabled since a recent patch.)
    Last edited by Esvandiary; 02-27-2012, 11:37 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • KadeshSa
    replied
    I absolutely agree with pretty much everything that has been said in here. I especially think the bots need to be made more aware of what human teammates are doing. Every time I play with bots I start screaming "$#&$ing Judases!" at some point in the match.

    I understand that this is an extremely difficult task AI-wise: decision making based on the behavior of teammates instead of their current behavioral "status" (as in "pushing mid" or "doing Roshan") requires complicated inference logic. But Valve could at least give a better way for players to inform bots of their intentions; bots do not respond to pings well at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • gramathy
    replied
    (Somehow related: Occasionally I get "ganked" but tipped off by this blinked-in enemy Tide who did nothing)
    I think this is because Tide wants to initiate, but won't ult unless he can hit a minimum number of targets, and blinking in means he doesn't have allies around him so he doesn't try to slow you down either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sly_Squash
    replied
    Your advice for working towards becoming an adequate initiator by practicing on the bots is to wait for the fight to begin and then initiate?
    Do you know what initiation means?

    Anyway, I don't want to pollute the thread by quibbling over such things, but that just seems like such poor advice. You don't lay low and let the fight begin as initiator THEN jump in just because the bots are too dumb to respond correctly when a human playing an initiator hero begins the fight properly. You fix the bot behavior so they jump in right away once they see the blink+aoe stuns. ESPECIALLY when they JUST REPORTED in chat that they intended to "push" or "defend" a lane.

    I "insist on playing initiator" because I am practicing playing initiator. That's why people test out new heroes and roles with bots first: to get a feel for how to use the hero in its role before coming online. If bot matches don't work unless you play any role but carry, they aren't useful to practice against. And dota bots need to be useful to practice against; the community is simply too toxic towards inexperienced players to not give them the tools to get their feet wet before coming online.



    Anyway, speaking of roles, it feels like the computer doesn't care about any of them. No matter what the role, they all just want to jungle. Gankers don't roam looking for ganks. Supporters don't buy wards or withhold last hits for carries. Pushers don't push lanes. They're all just either jungling, globbing up and playing badly (if on your team), or globbing up and playing impeccably with chain stun after chain stun (if on the bot-only team). I'd like to see more diversified behavior in these bots.
    Last edited by Sly_Squash; 02-25-2012, 07:43 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • AbsoluteNoob
    replied
    Originally posted by Sly_Squash View Post
    Also, there might be some logic in there for if the human is the initiator. Nothing like the team getting wiped because you as initiator were waiting 4 more seconds for your ult to come up before blinking into the fight.
    If you insisted on playing initiator this is how you get it to work. Stay way back and wait for the fight to start, then you initiate.
    Unless your team of bots completely suck you will still get your sanctification of job well done.

    Imma play some more bots from the test server. They somehow gotten stupider. (Or maybe its just the Matchmaking coop vs bots)

    Leave a comment:


  • Sly_Squash
    replied
    #16 is a big one IMO. During the lane phase it's usually not too bad; I use my spell to stun and my partner will usually at least toss one of theirs into the mix.

    But once the big battles get rolling, I get a lot of "Pushing top, Pushing top, Pushing top" so I think "hey, they're committed to this. They know we want this"... My blink ult initiate later and they're all hightailing it back home already...

    Also, there might be some logic in there for if the human is the initiator. Nothing like the team getting wiped because you as initiator were waiting 4 more seconds for your ult to come up before blinking into the fight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arxos
    replied
    12. Don't use spells on creep while defending tower, and the big fight is coming up in 3 seconds.
    [Skills on cooldown during a teamfight is bad]
    (Ever since bot know how to use spells to push creeps, they love doing that before a teamfight when creeps reach the tower)
    Make them only use spells with cooldowns of 10 or less seconds. Example, Arc Lightning is ok. Bladestorm is not.
    Also 1 bug I've been meaning to report for some time, but Juggernaut has a tendency to start Bladestorming when he decides to farm a creep lane using his spell, rather than when he's actually there.

    Leave a comment:


  • AbsoluteNoob
    replied
    I have no idea what is the word limit for a post but this post is in the bag! (Reserved)

    Leave a comment:


  • (Remarkably) Less than 101 ways to improve bots behavior_Non-hero specific

    I have played more than enough bot games to know what I'm talking about.
    Taken these into consideration. Suggestions based on 1~2 human teaming up with bots or full human vs bots.
    Latest bot version review: 16th March 2012

    -------------------------Format-------------------------
    Coloured = new
    --------------------------------------------------------
    x. Suggests what bots do under condition and event.
    [How it will help]
    (Examples I've encountered)
    -------------------------Format-------------------------

    Passive difficulty
    Everybot
    1. Sometimes, bot team doing nothing after 15 minute mark.
    [Doing nothing, wondering around tier 2 and 3 towers, losing exp, gold and time]
    (Kinda like issue #5, but they are not even jungling. Happens in this difficulty only)

    2. HERO SPECIFIC: Some heroes still harrass even though they shouldn't be.
    [Isn't this suppose to be SUPER EASY MODE where bots just lane?]
    (Most notably Zeus, throwing out them Lightning Bolts; Kunkka can't be helped due to passive)




    Normal difficulty
    Early game
    Everybot
    3. When an enemy in the lane is disabled, immediately attempt a kill unless outnumbered / escaping.
    [Helps out human roamers]
    (How many times have you roamed and attempt a murder but the bots are flailing behind the tower?)

    4. Dominating a lane doesn't mean that I WANT TO PUSH THE LANE.
    [Hello, laning phase??]
    (Seen bots trying to push a lane as early as 4 min, especially mid)

    5. GTFO when HP is below nuke damage and no hp regen item. Around 300 hp. 600 hp for mid-late.
    [Really brave feeding bots]
    (None of the current bot hero have a good escape mechanism, so.... they die, always)

    6. Willing to trade hits when harassed, provided that range is not an issue.
    [Harder to get outlaned, really easy to pressure with 600 range heroes without taking hits]
    (Usually when bots get hit they will just eat it and back off while their buddy will do the "trading", but not the case at solo)

    7. Bots don't go jungling if (at least) tier 1 towers not down yet.
    [Bots are in the jungle, as sniper at 15min mark, struggling, when there are good lanes available]
    (Happens not-so-rarely after 10min mark, bots go jungling as if they are dark seer, leaving most safe lanes empty for opposing to free farm)

    Supports
    8. Pure supports should only deny n harrass unless laning with another pure support / lane mate is out.
    [They are not doing their work but stealing last hits so they can lose the gold when they die, frequently]
    (No example, happens every game)

    9. Never solo tower dive.
    [Probability of not killing but dying, besides forcing someone back to base is good enough for a support]
    (Sometimes when the prey hp is really low.)

    Gankers
    10. (related) At least ONE bot should occupy mid lane if empty longer than 1-2 minutes thanks to gankers.
    [WAY too easy to free farm at mid if the opposing mid is a ganker not a carry. (Sniper / Razor)]
    (Often mid lane ganker bots leave mid and do something in other lanes (push, died, etc), mid is empty for FAT CARRY IN 15 MIN.)

    Mid game
    Everybot
    11. When defending a tower, only defend with n+1 heroes. n being the number of enemy heroes attempting to push that lane.
    [Too easy to bait all bots into coming to 1 lane, wasting their time]
    (Solo push lane, get 4 heroes to come to the lane. Temporarily leave lane = profit!)

    12. Don't go all the way back to fountain just for item. Stash and wait until death / retreat.
    [Bots wasting a lot of time. Courier usage solves this]
    (Bots love going back to base for item with full health especially after team fights)

    13. Don't steal occupied "free" lane unless carry bot.
    [Creep equilibrium disruption, human hero might be item dependent]
    (Supports/Initiators stealing my gold and pushing the lane unnecessarily)

    14. Bots need to drop whatever they are doing and get their ass to the ping-ed tower, with exceptions. (under-farmed carry)
    [Latest bots often don't response to pings if they are more than a lane away. Really frustrating]
    (We need to push that tier one tower! *pingpingpingpingping* Wait... where's the other 3 bots?)

    15. 2-man ganks a hero free farming at lane but distance away from nearest tower.
    [So bots have something to do besides pushing, and prevent super ez free farming]
    (I know its stated but this is really dragging the game. Priority please)

    16. While teleporting to a tower to defend, make sure that the area around the destination is safe / have teammates. Otherwise cancel the teleport.
    [Suicide teleporting bots, loved them] *Somewhat fixed, less frequent now*
    (Lina teleporting 50 range behind the tower while 3 melee stunners is whacking the tower, somebot follow suit 2 seconds later.

    17. While moving to nearby tower to defend (usually from jungling), MAKE SURE ON THE WAY THERE IS NO 5 ENEMY HEROES. TP or detour.
    [Bots getting caught completely out of place and being DESTROYED when attempting to defend a tower]
    (Sniper jungling! Lane adjacent to jungle is being pushed, tried to defend by walking, runs into 5 heroes and dies)


    18. Don't use spells on creep while defending tower, and the big fight is coming up in 3 seconds.
    [Skills on cooldown during a teamfight is bad]
    (Ever since bot know how to use spells to push creeps, they love doing that before a teamfight when creeps reach the tower)

    19. When defending tower, while dancing behind tower, spread out. Hint: THE TREES.
    [Less "bot-team-with-initiator-more-likely-to-win" situation due to rape]
    (Blink dagger is OP on Tide and Earthshaker during teamfight vs bots. Which leads to...)

    Initiators
    20. NEVER BLINK INTO ENEMIES WITHOUT ULTI DURING TEAMFIGHT, WTF. Except Tiny.
    [Sometimes facepalming initiator bots]
    (Somehow related: Occasionally I get "ganked" but tipped off by this blinked-in enemy Tide who did nothing)

    21. Bot to bot coordination: Team move in first, but before first blow from anybody, initiators do their job.
    [Time to time initiators get instagibbed but the other bots don't have time to move in to help]
    (Those instant reflexes from bots! Stunning that blinked in by surprise Earthshaker before it can do anything)

    22. Detect human initiates, OH GOD THE HORROR.
    [This is why one gets maximum rage when playing initiator and teamed up the bots]
    (Stepped in and did your job, but your bot mates are still dicking around / left the lane, SERIOUSLY)

    Gankers
    23. (Rare) Solo kill attempt instead of team "gank" if caught someone(bot) off-guard / position.
    [Too easy to bait the whole team into chasing a person leading them to a trap]
    (Windrunner caught one, but shackle did not fully connect, whole team gave chase, especially when defending tower)

    Late game
    Everybot
    24. Seriously push when ping-ed and (sometimes) push ahead of creep wave.
    [Real games rarely last long, but bot games always last long]
    (What are bots doing? Jungling ofc! That tide really need his Heart)

    25. Do something to that fat carry. Stun / nuke / whatever then back off, even without mates.
    [Bots tend to get really defensive when knowing that carry is impossible to win 1v1, result: do nothing]
    (Human: Play carry, get farmed, buy BKB and 1v5 like a baws. Which follows up to...)

    26. Do something to that not close to dying magic immune dude. Low priority target but still do something.
    [Magic immune = ignore unless killing blow? What logic is this? I think Sniper bot still shoots]
    (Follow example of 23 and enjoy the infinite reference loop)

    Bug?
    Bots refusing to defend tier 3 towers and barracks & ancient.
    [Super annoying, it is instant win or lose once pushing tier 3]
    (Team pushing tier 3, opposing MIA completely. Upon observation, bots indecisively got stuck in place on other lanes)


    FIXED
    Non-target spells being used when deciding to farm a lane, before inside of creep range.
    [Its a bug, or maybe they are wasting mana so that human Lion can't leech their mana *joke*]
    (Razor decides to do Plasma Field the moment he starts to switch lanes. Hitting nothing but sometimes jungle creeps)



    Will recall more when I refresh my memory. Additions welcomed!
    Last edited by AbsoluteNoob; 03-16-2012, 06:30 AM.
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