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List of bot behaviour that can be improved/changed, based on heroes and items. [WIP]

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  • hjort
    replied
    Is it possible to get a "Live version" of -dumpbots? Like -dumpbots kunkka, and then it shows what kunkka does all the time? This would be really helpful

    Leave a comment:


  • MauranKilom
    replied
    Originally posted by Lagomorphic View Post
    I might be missing something here, but why won’t it work?
    You even quoted me on the answer! I explained it ("adjusting stuff now might be obsolete if other things are added"), then referenced it with "again" in the part you quoted, and now you ask why...

    The issue at hand is tunnelvisioning (as you mentioned). I created a list to note down important aspects that should make the bots more precise in their killing, thus reducing the need for tunnelvision beforehand. Also, these factors might change during the gank/dive, which should give them incentives to bail, again reducing tunnelvision.
    I tried to help solving the issue you complained about. So i don't really understand what your critique was against.

    Also, the "that was my point"-part of my post focused more on the "Lots of times they should have been able to kill me" of your previous post. As in, they should be better in estimating whether they can kill people or not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lagomorphic
    replied
    Originally posted by skyke View Post
    I think there's a problem when bots got disrupted, after that they're going idle and almost didn't move or react at all
    Are you talking about Shadow Demon?

    Leave a comment:


  • skyke
    replied
    I think there's a problem when bots got disrupted, after that they're going idle and almost didn't move or react at all

    Leave a comment:


  • Lagomorphic
    replied
    Even the DotA 1 bots had big issues with this. It's probably extremely difficult (and subjective) to tell what to do in the laning stage when somebody is low.
    Wasn’t this your point?


    Anyway, lets continue.

    Again, this isn't the only issue, and fixing this by saying "give them a higher incentive to towerdive low-hp heroes" won't work out in the long run.
    I might be missing something here, but why won’t it work? Right now it wouldn’t work because of the tunnel vision the bots have, they would just keep giving the other human a kill or 2.

    IMO right now the tunnel vision is the biggest problem the bots have.


    I said "probable?". They don't have to care about that on easy, but on unfair they should consider if other supports of the enemies are missing or have tp scrolls. This point is also connected to "fast (enough)?".
    When I play, I don’t care IF they have a TP, I care WHEN they TP. If someone starts to TP, then you treat that TP like it is a hero. 2.5 seconds is plenty of time to back off. Add in bots reaction time with stuns, and they should be fine.

    Are enemies missing? That would be tricky, but depending on when they went missing I would guess bots have a good idea of how long it takes to get form point A to point B.


    That's exactly the issue i want to adress.
    I actually do not see this as a problem. If they get harassed, they back off some, if they don’t, what is the point in moving? The only real reason to consider moving is, is there a Pudge missing or in your lane? They do not auto attack, so no point in moving to keep your hero form attacking. The only, small issue I have with this, is you know they are going for you when they run at you, thus giving you time to run away before the ranged is close enough to stun\attack you.



    Towerdiving isn't the only issue, and tweaking this alone might not work out well if other criteria are added later.
    That’s right, it’s not the only issue, but it is a big part of the early game. So let’s put together a list of what is important\goals of the laning stage. But maybe in a different thread as this is more of specific bots behavior.




    Flm404
    I don't believe it is true. She just attacks target after shackle/windrun, not moving anywhere...
    I have seen her shackle to prevent last hitting. But when she pops wind run, she will normally run away, but something might change that makes her want to turn and fight.

    Leave a comment:


  • flm404
    replied
    Originally posted by MauranKilom View Post
    The "shackleshot-windrun combo" is her escape behaviour. Basically, if you see her do this, you scared her.
    I don't believe it is true. She just attacks target after shackle/windrun, not moving anywhere...

    Originally posted by MauranKilom View Post
    Well, if you siege towers it's okay, but it's usually a waste of mana. It doesn't deal THAT much damage. But it would probably help if you state situations where she should use it.
    Hmm... Maybe she should use it while pushing a tower, or in some teamfights, idk, hard to say in one sentence. Or maybe she shouldn't learn that skill at all, or until ~16 lvl or later...
    About "waste of mana" argument - bots often run around with full mana for minutes, not to mention random shackle/windrun combo is also not a best use of your mana pool...

    Leave a comment:


  • MauranKilom
    replied
    Originally posted by flm404 View Post
    Windrunner bot should be completely reworked.
    1). She mostly skills powershot. Not uses it later. Instead she spams random shackleshots or shackle/windrun combo for no reason...
    The point here should be "make her use powershot more". The "shackleshot-windrun combo" is her escape behaviour. Basically, if you see her do this, you scared her.
    Originally posted by flm404 View Post
    2). She buys blade mail as first big item. Blade mail is not good item in general, but as first item and on windrunner - it makes no sense at all...
    The devs needed a hero to test blademail on. Windrunner seemed to be the bot of choice for this. It's not supposed to be a good item on her, but it's purely for testing purposes.

    Originally posted by flm404 View Post
    3). Focus fire? Is she ever uses it?
    Well, if you siege towers it's okay, but it's usually a waste of mana. It doesn't deal THAT much damage. But it would probably help if you state situations where she should use it.

    Leave a comment:


  • flm404
    replied
    Windrunner bot should be completely reworked.
    1). She mostly skills powershot. Not uses it later. Instead she spams random shackleshots or shackle/windrun combo for no reason...
    2). She buys blade mail as first big item. Blade mail is not good item in general, but as first item and on windrunner - it makes no sence at all...
    3). Focus fire? Is she ever uses it?

    And one more problem - she, as other bots, doesn't buy items in side shops...

    Leave a comment:


  • MauranKilom
    replied
    You missed my point. I was trying to provide feedback to improve the bots. As Chris stated somewhere else, it's helpful if we discuss how certain decisions are/should be made.
    So i listed things the bots should take into consideration (both ways). My point was however not to give the bots a temporary boost in performance by saying "bots don't towerdive enough" or "bots towerdive too much". Towerdiving isn't the only issue, and tweaking this alone might not work out well if other criteria are added later.

    Now a bit more in depth:
    Originally posted by Lagomorphic View Post
    The bots always stop chasing (all the times it has happened to me) when they get in range of tower. (Early game only, they have no problem diving mid/late game) Maybe this can be incorporated into how they decide if they are going to chase. (Prey has a high chance of making it to tower range, target next hero.)
    Again, this isn't the only issue, and fixing this by saying "give them a higher incentive to towerdive low-hp heroes" won't work out in the long run.


    Originally posted by Lagomorphic View Post
    When was the last time you saw someone TP in the first 15min of the game to go support someone? I would guess 75% of these games are 5 solo or 2 or more groups. This isn’t NaVi or EG playing vs bots.
    I said "probable?". They don't have to care about that on easy, but on unfair they should consider if other supports of the enemies are missing or have tp scrolls. This point is also connected to "fast (enough)?".

    Originally posted by Lagomorphic View Post
    Bots do not really move around a whole lot, they stand next to creeps and wait to deny it. If you are melee, the ranged in lane will harass you. Lots of times they should have been able to kill me, but the melee runs at me before the ranged is actually in range.
    That's exactly the issue i want to adress.
    Last edited by MauranKilom; 03-27-2012, 06:35 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lagomorphic
    replied
    Going a little out of order here but…

    -Do you have to towerdive, and how much damage will you probably take in the end?
    The bots always stop chasing (all the times it has happened to me) when they get in range of tower. (Early game only, they have no problem diving mid/late game) Maybe this can be incorporated into how they decide if they are going to chase. (Prey has a high chance of making it to tower range, target next hero.)

    -Are people missing? Is TP support possible/probable?
    When was the last time you saw someone TP in the first 15min of the game to go support someone? I would guess 75% of these games are 5 solo or 2 or more groups. This isn’t NaVi or EG playing vs bots.

    -Can you kill him (consider his, your, his partners and your partners HP/escape spells/nukes/disables/mana)? -> Autoattacks are an important damage source in the laning phase! So is movement, positioning and range.
    Bots do not really move around a whole lot, they stand next to creeps and wait to deny it. If you are melee, the ranged in lane will harass you. Lots of times they should have been able to kill me, but the melee runs at me before the ranged is actually in range.

    I have not been chased by a bot with not enough mana to cast a spell. So that part seems good.


    Sorry if I am coming off as “that guy”, but if we eliminate some of those choices, then it might be easier to make them act smarter.


    Now to complicate things…

    There are also plenty of times where bots do not tower dive when they should.
    -I can stand behind my tower at 1/4 HP and they are full.
    -I am running away bottom lane, and 1-2 auto attacks or 1 spell will kill me, I run into the tree area. (dota0007.jpg)
    -Make yourself not targetable (aka Euls) but I am sure this is being worked on)
    -Is it going to give them First blood? (It is always work a trade, if you get FB)


    I guess my point was that they should not get killed because they are chasing, they need to remember that other hero is still there and is a threat.
    Last edited by Lagomorphic; 03-26-2012, 02:55 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MauranKilom
    replied
    Originally posted by Lagomorphic View Post
    *Edit*
    *One thing I remembered is that bots seem to get tunnel vision.
    If you are in lane, and one person is kind of low they will attack and chase them even if they have a very low chance of killing you allowing your teammate to attack and most of the time kill at least one of them.
    -Even though an enemy is low, they should both change targets and attack/kill your partner who is just standing there.
    Even the DotA 1 bots had big issues with this. It's probably extremely difficult (and subjective) to tell what to do in the laning stage when somebody is low. Important questions are:
    -Can you kill him (consider his, your, his partners and your partners HP/escape spells/nukes/disables/mana)? -> Autoattacks are an important damage source in the laning phase! So is movement, positioning and range.
    -Can you kill him fast (enough)?
    -Do you have to towerdive, and how much damage will you probably take in the end?
    -Are people missing? Is TP support possible/probable?

    Example: ES with low mana/fissure on cd together with a dazzle that is too far away shouldn't chase a fleeing hero. If they have no chance of catching up/cutting him off, giving up is the smartest thing.
    Also, forcing somebody back to base in the laning phase is pretty much as good as a kill, so there's no need to hunt every kill (except for if you can kill the enemy carry).
    Last edited by MauranKilom; 03-26-2012, 12:47 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lagomorphic
    replied
    Originally posted by MauranKilom View Post
    Don't get it... What do you mean?
    This.
    * Shadow Poison: The bots seem to be more addicted to this skill then drugs!
    * Sticky Napalm: Bots don't mind getting 10 stacks on themselves


    They probably had Zeus. His Bolt gives true sight around the target for some seconds.
    Good point, I will check what heroes they had when I get home.

    *Edit*
    *One thing I remembered is that bots seem to get tunnel vision.
    If you are in lane, and one person is kind of low they will attack and chase them even if they have a very low chance of killing you allowing your teammate to attack and most of the time kill at least one of them.
    -Even though an enemy is low, they should both change targets and attack/kill your partner who is just standing there.
    Last edited by Lagomorphic; 03-26-2012, 09:04 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MauranKilom
    replied
    Originally posted by Lagomorphic View Post
    *Bot should not want stacks of anything an enemy hero puts on them.
    Don't get it... What do you mean?

    Originally posted by Lagomorphic View Post
    *In one game we had zero heroes with invis(no shadow blades either) Our Windrunner had gotten an invis rune and went mid. As she went up to the high ground the bots had killed 1 person, they turned and killed her, while she was invis.
    -I have been unable to reproduce this, so I am not sure what happened.
    They probably had Zeus. His Bolt gives true sight around the target for some seconds.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lagomorphic
    replied
    Here are some more things too add to the list.

    Mid Bot:
    *Leaves mid unattended for too long. (1 game was close to 5min of free farm for mid.)
    -Ganking is good, but shouldn’t be gone for too long. (Get FB, then get back.)

    Kunnka:
    *Will torrent sandstorm even if it is behind the creeps.
    - Should only torrent if Sand King is low hp, or in a position to be ganked/killed.
    Tidehunter:
    *Will waste ravage if he gets Disruption cast on him.
    -Seems like he is treating the illusions as if they are real heroes.
    Tiny:
    *Seems to wait till his stash is full before he goes to get his items, and even then does not get all of them. (More than one game he is running around with only 3 ironwood branches at the 12ish min mark.
    -This might not be a problem once the bots know how to use the courier. Until then maybe have him go back sooner.

    General:
    *Bot should not want stacks of anything an enemy hero puts on them.
    *Bots seem to try and deny over getting last hits.
    -Should be the other way around, they should only deny if a last hit is not there. Or in the duo lanes, one bot last hit and the other deny. (They shouldn’t fight for each other for them.)
    *This ties into the last one. If you pick sand king and get Caustic Finale and just go hit the creeps, but let the bots deny it, they will almost kill themselves. They get down to about 1/4 hp before backing off to heal some, then go back to killing themselves again.
    -Depending on HP, melee should not deny creeps with that debuff. Ranged would be ok though as long as they do not hurt the melee lane partner.
    *Surprise factor: You had said in a different thread that you might add something like this.

    Other:
    *In one game we had zero heroes with invis(no shadow blades either) Our Windrunner had gotten an invis rune and went mid. As she went up to the high ground the bots had killed 1 person, they turned and killed her, while she was invis.
    -I have been unable to reproduce this, so I am not sure what happened.

    If you would like Screen shots of any of these, I should be able to reproduce them. Just PM me or let me know in this thread. Otherwise awesome improvement form last patch.

    Leave a comment:


  • ninjustin
    replied
    Bot's just get destroyed if a person is playing as Drow Ranger. They can't run a few feet away then turn around then start running again. They need to either commit to attacking or straight up escape.

    Leave a comment:

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