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Even unfair bots are too easy

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  • Noya
    replied
    I think that the main "problem" with bots right now it's that they don't really know how to face each hero, like a normal experienced player should do.

    If I lane a mid Rikimaru vs. Lina/Zeus/Bane I should get totally demolished, but bots don't realize that because (even on Unfair) they don't make full use of their skill's potential and can't really realize when they are in a situation that they should do be aggressive.

    It also works the opposite way, if I'm laning with Viper or Huskar vs a low HP int hero (Lina comes to mind from my last game on Unfair bots, 81/8 Huskar ), they should try to be more cautious (Try to tower-hug, autoattack their own creeps, don't let player get 8 attacks in a row, etc).

    Also, Insane Bots in Dota AI maybe were harder, but that was because of the XP Boost (IIRC it was something like 75% more EXP AND GOLD) and not because of their Teamwork or ability to gank human players

    Leave a comment:


  • TheWilder
    replied
    My favourite combo so far was Bane+Tiny+Vengeful+Lina+Shaker that was just...stunning

    Leave a comment:


  • Valon
    replied
    The real question is, if you're that good why do you play against bots? They are good enough for beginners (which is their purpose) and except some really dumb moves caused most likely by bugs they destroy new players, all the bots have one or two stuns if you get caught you're dead, it's hard for a beginner. The only bad thing is you can't count on your team at all because they are really retarded, if they have Tide + Tiny and Sniper and you're a beginner you will loose 100% because you'll get engage and insta killed everytime.

    Leave a comment:


  • poogs
    replied
    stop picking carries and play the bots 'straight up', meaning: can't go past creeps (past exp range, that's when they seem to bug) <- ai bugged if you do this with higher levels or lots of dmg, you're essentially abusing

    also feed them nonstop for the first 5 mins to make it fair. try to spread the feeding evenly among lanes



    i'm not sure the bot difficulty setting is actually working because i've played with people several times that admit "this is their first game" -> but that would mean they're lying or the difficulty is lying because i set it to 'unfair' and they would have had 'normal' by default
    Last edited by poogs; 04-04-2012, 05:21 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • mindfaQ
    replied
    Maybe valve wants to improve the AI upon observations under "fair" circumstances (so no exorbitant xp-boost). So before giving them unfair means to be harder to beat, they first want to improve their normal way of playing as much as they can.

    Leave a comment:


  • Django
    replied
    I'd love to see a command implemented which you can use to set the bonus XP and gold for bots.

    This way everyone could play vs AI accoring to his skill level.

    Leave a comment:


  • Florin
    replied
    You either have just played with the real bots or you have no ideea of playing ) just kidding mate, don't be offended but I played with unfair bots and at lvl 12 I was at their mana pool killing them one after the other None escaped, none! ) so basically my team was pushing lanes easily, no resistance whatsoever because the opponents were trapped inside the mana pool by me.
    Pretty much it was unfair to them :P

    Leave a comment:


  • Florin
    replied
    You either have just played with the real bots or you have no ideea of playing ) just kidding mate, don't be offended but I played with unfair bots and at lvl 12 I was at their mana pool killing them one after the other None escaped, none! ) so basically my team was pushing lanes easily, no resistance whatsoever because the opponents were trapped inside the mana pool by me.
    Oh and my score was smth like 52-2.

    Leave a comment:


  • squinte
    replied
    Originally posted by Monkit View Post
    You aren't teaching players how to handle real battles if the AI don't combo much, goes around in circles, doesn't defend properly, stuck in a small radius moving slowly in a pack of 5 heroes. It is much engaging if good players can program bots to a certain difficulty to give new players an idea of how it is really played.
    You sure you're playing on Unfair bots? I've been playing them for a while a now and can legitimately say that, one wrong move around the enemy team and you're perma stunned to death by an unrelentless combo. The only way to avoid this sort of combo is to get a BKB as soon as you can. The enemy bots roam together while your team tries, but fails to.

    I still think part of the problem is a team of 1 human & 4 bots is handicapped versus a team of 5 bots because the enemy team knows exactly what they're planning while you're more or less puzzled by your own bots decisions. Don't get me wrong, I win a lot of unfair bot matches, it's just frustrating to get caught out by a roaming team when your bots are so spread out. Bots won't push a lane with you unless you reach a specific threshold into enemy territory or ping on the tower you want to push to. And for whatever reason, they still don't like to defend all the time.

    Last night I was playing an unfair match and pinged to defend top T2 tower against a pushing team of 5. My bots all TP in. The enemy team backs off into the fog of war and my team disbands the tower defense. They're in mid and radiant jungle now when suddenly the enemy team, all five of them, re-enter from the fog of war with another creep wave. Despite me pinging on the tower my team doesn't come back because they wasted their TPs the first time and are too stupid to realize the enemy might have still been lingering around. What should have happened is the defenders should have pushed the lane out a bit to prevent the enemy team from just rushing back in 30 seconds later. They would have noticed the other team hanging around. Another thing they could have done is set up wards around the secret shop to prevent any kind of sneak attack. They place too much reliance on warding the runes 100% of the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Purgatus
    replied
    I'd like them to fix the AI before deciding to enact a grand new avenue of programming.

    Leave a comment:


  • Monkit
    replied
    You aren't teaching players how to handle real battles if the AI don't combo much, goes around in circles, doesn't defend properly, stuck in a small radius moving slowly in a pack of 5 heroes. It is much engaging if good players can program bots to a certain difficulty to give new players an idea of how it is really played.

    Imagine you are playing on insane difficulty, winning all the games. As a new player, you are now extremely confident that you can win using the same strategy, just farming till late game without deny nor ganking. Now when you come to matchmaking, you will lose terribly without even knowing why.

    Plus allowing programmable AI, allows Valve to unlock something no other AOS games have done. (If you don't know what is AOS, go wiki about it, dota wasn't original, it was an idea that originated from a Starcraft Map called Aeon of Strife based on Starcraft's Lore)
    Valve can allow AI battles, imagine you have had your fun kicking people's ass in game. Now you can be a "Team Manager". You control how Bots think, you send a team of 5 bots against another team of 5 bots that is programmed by other players. Ain't it awesome just the thought of it?

    Advantages:
    More versatility in bots thinking
    Allows more Challenge
    Can focus on other aspect of the game in development
    AI battles (epic)

    Disadvantages:
    More programming
    Implementing scripting language
    Release of tool for players to script
    Hard to control the release of AI scripts

    Leave a comment:


  • Purgatus
    replied
    Originally posted by Monkit View Post
    Because bots are add-on features to the game, not essential feature. The developers are more focused on fixing bugs, implementing new heroes. And the AI will need to be modified every single time there is a new hero released to accommodate the changes, thus it is more viable to finish most of the heroes first then focus on the AI. But I do recommend releasing some kind of tool for people to modify the AI, it provides more versatility and challenge (outsourcing public input just like an open source project).
    I disagree with the idea that its an "add-on" feature. Or more to the point, if that's how its seen, I think that's a mistake. We all know how acerbic the community can get, bot matches are the BEST way for new players to get used to heroes in a comfortable, low-pressure, environment. Given Valves focus on lessening the learning curve, bots are a vital first step.

    Leave a comment:


  • KilluaYoukai
    replied
    Originally posted by zozkA View Post
    The people behind the dota1 AI maps
    If we want new players to actually learn something playing with bots, we need those who have been doing this for DotA. If Valve can provide a stable environment for PBMN and his team, to focus on the AI, and do not have to concern about other jobs. They can do it.

    Leave a comment:


  • zozkA
    replied
    Originally posted by Monkit View Post
    Because bots are add-on features to the game, not essential feature. The developers are more focused on fixing bugs, implementing new heroes. And the AI will need to be modified every single time there is a new hero released to accommodate the changes, thus it is more viable to finish most of the heroes first then focus on the AI. But I do recommend releasing some kind of tool for people to modify the AI, it provides more versatility and challenge (outsourcing public input just like an open source project).
    Sounds like a great idea. The people behind the dota1 AI maps really knew what they were doing! (I'm not saying that the dota2 team does not but, as you point out, they need to focus on a lot of other stuff)

    Leave a comment:


  • Monkit
    replied
    Because bots are add-on features to the game, not essential feature. The developers are more focused on fixing bugs, implementing new heroes. And the AI will need to be modified every single time there is a new hero released to accommodate the changes, thus it is more viable to finish most of the heroes first then focus on the AI. But I do recommend releasing some kind of tool for people to modify the AI, it provides more versatility and challenge (outsourcing public input just like an open source project).

    Leave a comment:

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