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"Easier" Bots don't seem to be easy enough for learning purposes

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  • Almadiel
    replied
    My main concern is that easy bots prevent th game from ending at all. They seem to refuse to push into the base. We can kill all five enemy heroes and they just go back to farming or shopping when the enemy barracks is defenseless.

    I tried playing a 2v2 game with friends, using easy bots to fill in, and the game was basically unwinnable for either side. The bots just would not attack, while the other sides bots would stop our 2 man pushes cold.

    I think that no matter what difficulty the bots are set at, their agressiveness should snowball as they gain an advantage. Let them go up to normal difficulty if needed after a certain point so that we can actually finish games.

    All they managed to do was make my newbie friends think dota is boring.
    Last edited by Almadiel; 04-13-2012, 10:31 PM.

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  • The4thSniporr
    replied
    Fully agree with the reaction times issue. Tiny bot in particular is an unkillable force of nature-- he Avalanche and Toss comboes so effectively it almost seems like one fluid attack. As for the 5-man ganking squads of death, this too needs to be toned down. While the enemy team is murdering a tower, my team are running back and forth behind it, initiate, get chain-stunned and comboed to oblivion, then the enemy team continues to push and wins the game.

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  • durkadurka
    replied
    Just to add my 2 cents on this issue...

    I was playing with my IRL mate, a casual HoN player when it was in it's infancy.

    Decided to go into a bot match where the AI decided to rip us royal in the first 20 minutes, ganking with 5 heroes all around the map, dominating everything with magically farmed items which made the last 20 minutes of the game quite eerie when they didn't even leave their base allowing us to just walk in and end it.

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  • Yorien
    replied
    Yep, easy bots are still not "easy" enough for newcomers.

    The main difference in most bot modes are the small increase of reaction times and the passiveness on the laning phase (on easier modes, bots don't deny or harass).

    Main problem I found is: unless playing on Passive mode (bots will stick the entire game farming their lanes), ganks are done as early as at lv2, cluttering and player focusing are too common, and there's still the "enemy team roams and pushes as a compact 5 bot_squad_of_death while my team bots keep farming or pushing after I've already pinged 40 times for them to defend the tower, then, once the tower is down, they stay behind or engage enemy bots (one at a time) geting themselves killed" issue.

    Still, we all know there's already a lot of work to do, but here are some ideas to make bots "easier"

    1-. Difficulty undependant configuration for bot denying, harassing in lane and even ganking/roaming, thus you can play an "easy" match with harassing and denying bots. Maybe even sliders instead of on/off switches (the higher the setting, the more "will" bots'll have to gank/harass/deny and the earlier they'll start doing it; a lower setting will make bots less willing, or wait for longer till they start roaming/harassing for example)

    2-. Separate reaction times depending on situation and action taken and some external sources. Actual bot rt's are undependant of the action taken and too low... many players, specially newcomers, will range rt of 500-1000ms on average depending on the situation.

    * Last hitting. Low rt, medium window (150ms - 400ms window), making the window smaller the harder the bots. Last hitting is a repetitive action done a lot, but you must take into account damage being dealt to the creep, your damage, the attack animation and (in case of ranged heroes) the projectile flight speed. Even advanced players fail last hitting from time to time., and trying to last hit too soon or too late is actually pretty common when you're first learning the game.

    * Denying. Same as last hitting, a little higher on lower difficulty settings (200ms - 450ms). Basic deny idea is to "last hit your creep" so in general terms the windows should be the same, but as a starting player you mainly concentrate on last hitting enemy creeps and, if having "spare time" then look for denying your creeps. While advanced players will deny atmost as if they were lat hitting (thus having the same rt for a lasthit and for a deny), newcomers must actively "think" of denying, thus the little higher rt.

    * Comboing and stuns/disables. "no rt", big window, (-600ms - +300ms window) making the window smaller the higher the dificulty. This is a pretty tricky one. Currently, even in easier dificulty settings, bot timing is almost perfect: you get stunned, bots hit you, when the stun is wearing off another perfect stun lands = you dead. First of all, you may have an idea how much time your teammate's stun will last, but don't know exactly when he/she clicked, so you tend to pre-cast your stun so it lands when the enemy is still stunned, "losing" some stun time (the "minus" value, you land your stun before the previous one wears off); also, if you try to get a "perfect" combo, you may click too late allowing the enemy a small posibility of running away (the "plus" value). Advanced players "combo" better, so they'll lessen the window, but still fail sometimes (yesterday - 11/Apr/2012 - games on JoinDota with QoP and SK evades in some of Tobi's streamed games are perfect examples of this)

    * Initiated/taken by surprise (+500ms to +1500ms added to the next rt, smaller the higher the difficulty). You get surprised, you react slower, simple as that. Advanced players recover faster from the surprise, but still need some time to react. Medium driver reaction time in most countries is one second (1000ms) when reacting to road hazards, and even higher for people who got their driving license recently.

    3-. Longer laning phase and lesser roaming will for easier difficulty settings (if undependant settings in 1 are enabled). Most newcomers want to test "the whole thing" including ganks and harassment, but will prefer a longer laning phase so they "get warmed".

    4-. Extreme will for allied bots to react to player pings (almost considered as an order). If you ping an allied tower, you're ordering a defend and you expect bots to come even by foot, not for them to keep roaming or pushing other lanes the next three minutes while enemy team gets T1, T2, T3 and 'racks. If you ping your ancient, you call a base defense. If you ping an enemy tower, you're ordering a push, If you ping an enemy bot you order a focus and so on. An alternate set of orders could be to ping a particular allied bot (clicking on him/her or in their portrait), and then issue a "ping", so that "ping" is only meant to them (this could even be used to assign bots to lanes if you click on a bot and then on an allied T1 tower on the 1:30 granted time before game starts, If no orders are issued in 0:45 minutes, bots will auto-chose their lanes)

    5-. Lower will fot the enemy team to form a 5-bot-squad-of death after mid-game starts. This is still one of the worst problems with bots in all difficulties. Enemy team starts roaming as a full squad while your team is split here and there. 2-3 gank roams should be more common (while other bots keep farming, pushing or defending), and your team should behave the same way (for example, a ganker+support roam). If your team "detects" a 5-bot-enemy-roam, they should immediately assume a full scale push/roshan and get themselves ready.

    ... and some others.
    Last edited by Yorien; 04-12-2012, 05:38 AM.

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  • core
    replied
    I agree.
    I think the main problem are the friendly bots. It's like 5 bots can communicate super good and all, but 4 bots and 1 player doesn't work out too good, that's also why I pratice only in Coop matches against bots.
    I feel like you can't play an initiator or support in a bot match (9 bots, 1 player). So for example you initiate in a team fight, but the bots feel like no I won't attack and then you get killed. That's just really frustrating.

    I recommend that you and your friend should rather practice in a coop match. It's just so much more fun

    Leave a comment:


  • Kakkoii
    replied
    Woot! Thanks Chris, glad to hear you guys will take a look into changing it up some more. Awesome when threads get results so quickly hehe. You guys are doing a great job

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  • Muranodo
    replied
    Agreed. I was going to post a topic about the difference between Passive and Easier being really quite a leap and bounds difference.

    I came from League of Legends to give DOTA 2 a fair shake since I really didn't like all the nay saying I kept hearing one way or the other on the LOL forums.
    Once I got an actual handle on last hitting/denial, DOTA 2's items, the difference in playstyle approach versus LoL (much longer laning phase, holding off aggression from the start, the entire learning curve versus a cliff) then I've basically been able to cream passive mode once I manage to feed myself on gold enough to start pushing down all the towers since, well, doesn't seem like the AI does much at all.

    I've played a few easier and normal matches; it can be hard to tell. So if you can do those hooks I'm sure it'll help myself and those I invite to sign up for the beta from LoL more.

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  • ChrisC
    replied
    Sounds like we need to add more Easy mode hooks, right now it's not all that different from Normal. Good feedback, that's the kind of thing that's hard to gauge internally -- thanks everyone.

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  • Octagone
    replied
    I totally agree. When I was learning the game, Zeus always getting kills when I was low on health and VG and Sven stun locking, almost got me to quit the game. Thankfully I had some friends to teach and play with me so I could learn the game.

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  • HMAN911
    replied
    A chance to screw up spell cast order, or missing skillshots more frequently, and less teamwork.

    They clump up as a team of 5 and combo like madmen.

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  • Sim
    replied
    I agree that bots can be really annoying even on very easy difficulties. For instance, VS + jugg bots on easier difficulty will swap you on sight into Jugg then stun you, and Jugg will bladestorm you, all with perfect timing, every time you show up. That's 1000+ damage at level 6. Bane is equally as annoying and doesn't leave a chance to the player even at Easier and perfectly chains his spells together.

    For a new/noob player that's a guaranteed death every time he shows up in the lane. And a guaranteed uninstall LOL. +1

    As a suggestion, I would add a "human" factor to the bots. That means, give the bots a respond time before they actually do their things, as humans do. That could be a random number between 0.00 and 1.00 second, or something like that, and would vary according to difficulty.

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  • Kakkoii
    replied
    A private lobby with the friend.

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  • ChrisC
    replied
    OP: Were you playing a coop matchmade game vs bots, or a private lobby?

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  • TheWilder
    replied
    Yeah, Easier bots should be realy bad. I agree OP

    +1

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  • xXSynXx
    replied
    this is the basic thing you need to learn about dota. Dota is hard! just kid

    anyway, agree on OP though. bot behaviour should be set easier/simpler for new player to get a grasp of playing dota.so +1

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