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[SUGGESTION] Dynamic bot mode

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  • [SUGGESTION] Dynamic bot mode

    In DotA 1 bots created by PBMN, there is a certain mode to prevent the bots from being drastically underleveled and fed. The concept is simple yet effective - when a bot dies, his gold and exp gain is increased 25%, while his periodic gold gain is also heavily increased, this effect stacks upto something like 300-400%. When the bot finally kills someone, his exp and gold is reverted back to 100%. If the bot then kills someone, his gold and exp is reduced by 10%, to a minimum of 50%.

    The concept is pretty simple, but it really kept games going in DotA 1 for a very long time. It became impossible to spawn camp bots as the amount of gold they received periodically was so much they would just buy blademail then kill you. I'm not saying to add this to all bot modes, but merely impliment it as a dynamic mode for those of us that want bots to be more fed when they are losing badly.

    As a side note, it would be nice that if this was to be implimented, bots would jungle when their cap reaches something, as jungling would then give them ridiculous amounts of farm.
    Last edited by Zaio; 08-07-2012, 09:30 AM.

  • #2
    Maybe make unfair this? Because unfair is supposed to be unfair, as in the bots cheat to make the game, well, unfair.

    Comment


    • #3
      That could be a possibility, but to me it seems unfair is just the maximum difficulty, whereas this should be it's own mode because it's unique from the others, but certaintly fits the description of unfair more so than the current bots.

      Comment


      • #4
        Dynamic bots is not the solution to utterly terrible farming efficiency, which should first be addressed.

        Anyone (human or bots) who does not lane after 12 mins and goes 5 man ganking/pushing (or just runs around achieving nothing) deserves to stay lvl10-, and should not be rewarded with bonus XP/gold.

        Comment


        • #5
          I like this idea, and it would be a nice adjustment.
          Perhaps as an option (a toggle switch) in the lobby settings when creating a lobby that appears when the, "bots fill empty slots", is checked off. Also, as a secondary option (toggle switch) when selecting bot difficulty for co-op matches.

          As Endario has said, it is not the solution for the current state of bot behaviors. However, In my opinion it could be a good addition to prevent bots from getting too fed/under-leveled well after all the bot stupidity has been sorted out.

          Furthermore, he is right in that bots 5-man roam/push way too early. They need to pay attention to how pushed lanes are and have someone actively keeping creeps off of their towers. The entire team does not need to be there to successfully defend against 1 creep wave. Have a team of 2-3 heroes roaming and ganking while 2-3 others are farming lanes/jungle. They should be ready to fight in a pinch, but still need to focus on getting that farm.

          It's annoying playing co-op bot matches when your team is farming, except for maybe one person who is actively trying to push or gank and gets caught out in relatively safe locations because they ran into a 5-man unit. But I think part of that problem is playing with people that aren't very well versed in the game to begin with, or are unfamiliar/uncommunicative (not a stack of 5 people). I would argue that if this was a 5 stack of well versed players, a 5-man unit wouldn't be completely out of the question, but would still be ridiculous considering bot's millisecond reaction time and hive mind.

          I'm not sure if the devs are tracking coop bot match statistics, but in my experience bots still consistently lose in Unfair coop matches in roughly less than 25-30 minutes. This is with the 5-man bot unit pushing/roaming strategy, so it's clearly not working.
          This ain't ova.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by endario View Post
            Dynamic bots is not the solution to utterly terrible farming efficiency, which should first be addressed.

            Anyone (human or bots) who does not lane after 12 mins and goes 5 man ganking/pushing (or just runs around achieving nothing) deserves to stay lvl10-, and should not be rewarded with bonus XP/gold.
            That's not the point. The point of this suggestion is to make the game harder overall. When those issues are addressed, this mode will only be made harder, which is the whole point of it. It's a bit ridiculous that anyone can easily get 80 - 0 at the moment with QoP. This mode would just make it impossible, because currently QoP can only do that by the bots being ridiculously underfed due to the QoP constantly ganking them with veil-agha-ulti-refresher. Also the fact that a player can be level 25 when the bots are barely level 9/10.

            I agree the bots current ways aren't correct, but that doesn't give a reason to dismiss this suggestion, it is merely another mode that could be a challenge to players of higher skill level who enjoy bots, while being very easy and quick to code.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm not disregarding the OP's suggestion at all, please don't get me wrong. (I personally think that the dynamic system introduced by PBMN was very smart.)

              All I'm saying is that dynamic bots should not be the solution to terrible bot programming.

              Yes eventually if anyone is up for a challenge, dynamic bots is definitely the way to go, but making the bots more intelligent overall should still be a higher priority.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm not so sure I agree, the thing is, is that coding good bot AI takes a very long time of refinement, whereas the dynamic bot mode can be coded within 20 minutes or so easily, as really there is barely anything to it. For that reason I think it should be implimented very soon, as a quick solution to easy bots, while the mode will only get harder as bot development improves.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Zaio View Post
                  In DotA 1 bots created by PBMN, there is a certain mode to prevent the bots from being drastically underleveled and fed. The concept is simple yet effective - when a bot dies, his gold and exp gain is increased 25%, while his periodic gold gain is also heavily increased, this effect stacks upto something like 300-400%. When the bot finally kills someone, his exp and gold is reverted back to 100%. If the bot then kills someone, his gold and exp is reduced by 10%, to a minimum of 50%.

                  The concept is pretty simple, but it really kept games going in DotA 1 for a very long time. It became impossible to spawn camp bots as the amount of gold they received periodically was so much they would just buy blademail then kill you. I'm not saying to add this to all bot modes, but merely impliment it as a dynamic mode for those of us that want bots to be more fed when they are losing badly.

                  As a side note, it would be nice that if this was to be implimented, bots would jungle when their cap reaches something, as jungling would then give them ridiculous amounts of farm.
                  Dynamic Mode was fully developed and tweaked by me actually.

                  The idea behind this was to balance AI's XP/Gold rate in various situation, aswell as compensate AI's inability ( in our case that was simple Jass limitations ) act properly against certain match-ups and tactics.
                  It took me a while to pick proper values, for example first version of Dynamic Mode had 1 instance of bonuses ( XP/Gold per kill penalty ) removal wich resulted in enemy bots getting all their items/xp in 100% test games, they even managed to win a test game with 2 sides destroyed ( fun game it was ).

                  Also do not forget about assists, they also reduce bonuses, but don't increase them for victim.

                  Another purpose of Dynamic mode is to balance game from start ( try -Am mode in Dota 1 ), this makes all AI heroes start with normal ( humanlike ) rates and after 10 min mark their rates start to grow slowly ( passive boost ).
                  I believe this mode could replace current Unfair ( 25% ) rate as its often doesn't help bots neither early nor mid game ( usually there's no late game in bots game unless dragged on purpose ) and since AI in Dota 2 doesn't really jungle aswell ( they simply waste this bonus advantage ) no wonder they end up underleveled as their 5 man gank doesn't always work.

                  Conclusion : This could be an alternative to Unfair ( all other modes are for pure practice, not for challenge ) or side system ( toggle based ), so people could try the system in their games. Values could be tweaked anytime.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ahh my bad, I thought PBMN did it. I was a bit hazy on the exact values but I believe what I put is something along the lines.

                    The idea of the mode is really good, and it did truly keep games going in DotA 1. The thing is, that some new players like unfair bots having just 25% bonus exp above them, whereas this mode is a whole different thing imo. For that reason I think it should be the next step up from Unfair.

                    P.S. Your Visage bot in DotA 1 is the Bane Elemental of DotA 2, lol.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Zaio View Post
                      Ahh my bad, I thought PBMN did it. I was a bit hazy on the exact values but I believe what I put is something along the lines.

                      The idea of the mode is really good, and it did truly keep games going in DotA 1. The thing is, that some new players like unfair bots having just 25% bonus exp above them, whereas this mode is a whole different thing imo. For that reason I think it should be the next step up from Unfair.

                      P.S. Your Visage bot in DotA 1 is the Bane Elemental of DotA 2, lol.
                      It still can be toggle-based mode if people want standart 25% bonus for AI.

                      As for Visage - thats PBMN's work. He put some love for him and his familars ( each familar took some time to work ). Basically any hero he personally tweaked is kicking ( Invoker is the best example ).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        i do want that feature, it would make bots more challengin
                        one thing i dont get is how rude can ppl get... lets be civil ^^

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