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I can't carry hard / unfair bots anymore. It was possible a while ago.

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  • I can't carry hard / unfair bots anymore. It was possible a while ago.

    They just... run into people and die. That's literally all they do. Oh and they hold onto their skills, even at the cost of their (or your) life only and exclusively to KS. ALL heroes do this. Dragon Knight, Lina, everyone. They just don't do anything until they're in KS range, then they use their nuke, and walk away (usually dying in the process since they're tanking creepwaves).

    They ignore pings so you can't even make them retreat as they run into 5 one by one. I can't even get any farm in lane since my support will constantly feed kills over and over and over and do nothing else. Every little thing they do seems to be aimed at damaging you, from feeding your lane to leaving your lane at random times to gank. They even block the easy lane at the start, and the first thing they do is aggro the enemy bots which pulls the entire wave into your tower. They commit to teamfights, then leave as soon as you Spectre ult in. Hell they even stopped me from getting kills 'cause they bodyblocked me (enemy bots on the other hand have perfect pathing through entire creepwaves). It's like they're griefing you.

    Meanwhile the enemy team will ONLY USE THEIR SPELLS ON YOU, no matter at what point you get into teamfights (they're kinda reasonable though, since your teammates will literally stand idle in the middle of the teamfight, doing nothing while Sniper kills them one by one).

    If you go farm in a lane your bots just walk into your lane and push it, so you have to go somewhere else. What I have to do to get some farm is ping a tower on the opposite side of the map so that my team teleports there, and go to the free lane to farm. If I do that though, the enemy team will instantly teleport as 5 into the lane and will try to gank me, so I'll have to leave. It's insane how much focus the other team puts on you. They will be teleporting as 5 and 5 man ganking you the entire game... your team does nothing anyway, they don't push, they just idle around farming the jungle.

    If you're not a Battlefury carry you'll have an extremely hard time getting any farm, but here's the news! Your bots LOVE farming the jungle, even if you're a hard carry. I always see 2 to 3 people farming my jungle camps from about 20 minutes on, blocking camps when they're not actively trying to farm them. Most of the time I just have to go to the enemy jungle and farm those camps because on my own side it's impossible.

    I HAVE to get mid to win the game and sometimes even that won't be enough. It doesn't matter if I have 300 lasthits in 30 minutes and I'm 10/0, even if I can solo kill the entire enemy team, my team will refuse to push afterwards even if I spam 8 billion pings, then the enemy team will simply respawn and wipe my team again, and push some free towers or get an uncontested Roshan (oh well they always do that anyway).

    I won two 1v5 engagements as Spectre this game, wasn't enough to take down a tier 4 + barracks apparently, my team just wanted to dive the enemy fountain. At some point the enemy Tiny and other people got sheepsticks and I just couldn't win anymore. Asking my team to kill the ulting Death Prophet standing right in front of them wasn't even worth trying. They just stood there waiting for Tiny to pull off his stunts. Whoever survived got killed by Sniper who'd just stay back and shoot, completely ignored by everyone.

    Please, for the love of all things holy, fix them. In theory one will play bots to practice heroes and / or mess around / play carries since you can't in pubs. At the moment it's just you vs. 5 bots and 4 griefers, it's actually worse than the worst of pubs (hell they even feed the courier every single time it's up), with the only redeeming point that you can leave when you're fed up with it.
    Last edited by Radio; 11-18-2012, 05:54 AM.

  • #2
    I agree entirely. If you want to play bot games on hard difficulty or above you pretty much have to do co-op vs bots atm, which kinda sucks.

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    • #3
      Well the bots are supposed to be realistic, so instead of changing them Valve should just add a couple of Russian phrases to them and call it a day.

      I agree though, hard bots are unplayable outside co-op. Your lane support just stands there, even when you engage into a favourable fight, and then either watches you die or KSes you and then watches you die.

      Comment


      • #4
        To win unfair bots you gotta play midder and gank entire mid-game, then it is possible to win.
        Originally posted by vladhood
        boy im glad all these qualified and educated game designers have come to the forums to help dota 2 grow

        Comment


        • #5
          This thread is completely exaggerated.
          The bots on your team, the bots on the enemy team, they're just as stupid as ever. It's still piss easy to make the enemy bots just derp out and ignore you, or dive you into the fountain.
          The only case where it's gotten any bit harder to beat the enemy bots is when the enemy team has a line up that's really good at pushing, because of how horny they are for pushing you have to continuously counter their pushes which is bothersome as your team is way too slow to aid you. Even so, it's perfectly doable, and I'm not just talking about when you're playing a carry.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Arxos View Post
            This thread is completely exaggerated.
            The bots on your team, the bots on the enemy team, they're just as stupid as ever. It's still piss easy to make the enemy bots just derp out and ignore you, or dive you into the fountain.
            The only case where it's gotten any bit harder to beat the enemy bots is when the enemy team has a line up that's really good at pushing, because of how horny they are for pushing you have to continuously counter their pushes which is bothersome as your team is way too slow to aid you. Even so, it's perfectly doable, and I'm not just talking about when you're playing a carry.
            I don't play them often, I don't know how to exploit them. Sometimes they do dumb stuff like diving you at the fountain etc., but most of the time they'll just 5 man gank you all game so you can't farm, while your team does nothing and suicides into them. Dunno about you but my bots always end 1/15, 1/20...

            Or are you really using this thread to brag about the fact you can beat bots?

            Originally posted by TheWilder View Post
            To win unfair bots you gotta play midder and gank entire mid-game, then it is possible to win.
            Yeah if you play a mid ganker or a strong solo pusher it's alright. Especially if you can push solo and escape you can win pretty much every game despite the fact the enemy team will only 5 man gank you every single time you show up in a lane, which is just unrealistic considering they should lose towers for that.

            The problem comes mostly when you play hard carries who need farm since your allies won't let you farm neither jungle nor lanes, and if you're playing a non-BKB type of hero like Spectre or Naga it's insanely hard to solo the entire enemy team, so all you can do is backdoor push (Naga can do that, Spectre... not really.)
            Last edited by Radio; 11-18-2012, 05:51 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Radio View Post
              I don't play them often, I don't know how to exploit them. Sometimes they do dumb stuff like diving you at the fountain etc., but most of the time they'll just 5 man gank you all game so you can't farm, while your team does nothing and suicides into them. Dunno about you but my bots always end 1/15, 1/20...

              Or are you really using this thread to brag about the fact you can beat bots?
              You can easily own any bot in the laning phase, in particular the mid AI is terrible and going there is a free win regardless of your hero.
              If you're on the safe lane, you can just run up behind the bots and cause them to shuffle around confused as to whether they should be retreating or running back to the creep wave (Cause you're attacking them from such a distance away from the creep wave, their AI spazzes out and they don't properly recognize you as attacking them, heck the AI that isn't being attacked usually just completely ignores you and continues last hitting while their buddy is spazzing out and dying behind them)

              The suicide lane is probably the hardest as it's a bit harder to make them spaz out early on and they got this habit of putting 2 heroes with very good last hitting on that lane. It's not at all weird to see things like Sniper+Windrunner or Luna+Sven on the enemy safe lane which makes it kind of a horror to last hit unless you got a similarly strong hero yourself.
              In this case my best suggestion is to leave the lane, because here comes another flaw of the bots. If they're in a completely deserted lane on their own but their AI doesn't consider it mid-game yet, they will -never- push. So you can just leave a lane alone and they won't go "Hey, there's free towers here!" which causes them to just waste time in an empty lane while you can go about killing heroes in other lanes and taking towers.

              Just watch a video I made a few months ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQACkqIbiio
              If you're wondering what they're doing wrong at certain parts read this thread.
              Pretty much everything shown in that video is things they're STILL doing wrong.


              And in regards to your 'bragging' thing. I was personally surprised at the amount of people saying bots are hard too beat outside of co-op in this particular thread.
              Threads pop up continuously on these forums about how the AI are exploitable and too easy, I'm not at all alone or special in my thinking of this.
              Last edited by Arxos; 11-18-2012, 06:37 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Arxos View Post
                And in regards to your 'bragging' thing. I was personally surprised at the amount of people saying bots are hard too beat outside of co-op in this particular thread.
                Threads pop up continuously on these forums about how the AI are exploitable and too easy, I'm not at all alone or special in my thinking of this.
                Well maybe it's easy to win because you're exploiting bugs? :P I didn't even know they'd spaz out if you walked past the creep wave, who'd ever think to do that against 2 stunners in a normal game?

                The problem isn't really that anyway, even if you get really farmed and fed, your own bots will literally AFK in the jungle ignoring any initiative you want them to take, while the enemy bots will start moving around the map as 5 ganking you and only you and taking towers uncontested. You can't take personal initiative and your own bots will only suicide into the enemy 5 man ball.

                As I said, if you can backdoor you can hold them up indefinitely and win the game by slow pushing, but if you're not playing that type of hero and you really need to farm up and fight with a character like Spectre, you're screwed.

                Also yeah, I said that going mid is the only way to win. I was talking about playing a hard carry in the easy lane where your support will deny you + feed the enemy bots, you won't really get to freefarm there and even if you do, you won't be able to 1v5 them when they start grouping.

                I had no trouble whatsoever winning unfair bots before, hell even PA / Spectre was a free win since I had all the time to farm, but as of now I'm having trouble doing that. My bots contribute nothing but free food right now... I'm not even saying their AI is dumb, they're literally bugging out, walking alone into 5 people and getting killed is not normal, and every single bot on your team will do that. I've watched some teamfights closely and they will literally bunch up in the same spot and do nothing while the enemy team approaches and chainstuns them.
                Last edited by Radio; 11-18-2012, 06:56 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Radio View Post
                  Well maybe it's easy to win because you're exploiting bugs? :P I didn't even know they'd spaz out if you walked past the creep wave, who'd ever think to do that against 2 stunners in lane?
                  You'd not think of doing that so blatantly no, but you discover a lot of these things while playing normally. For example the thing with them spazzing out I discovered when playing N'aix and a friend of mine Barathrum on the safe lane. He got 0m DD rune and we just walked onto the lane from the side and started attacking them, as with N'aix slow and a DD a kill shouldn't be too hard to get. The end result though was that we ended up killing both heroes without even popping the slow cause they just started acting like that.

                  After a while, you start to just notice tendencies of bots, start to realize where the line is between when they do things and when they don't do things. Granted that kind of behaviour is very hard to avoid, as machine behaviour will generally be repetitive and their learning capacity is none in most cases, but it's disgustingly obvious in the case of Dota 2 bots. They're coded in a very hard coded manner to be fair, rather than deciding good positions themselves when defending, they stand at pre-defined locations. This is quite frankly a terrible idea for any AI, and I see cases where things are either pre-defined or they react based on user input all over them (i.e. right clicking them makes them run away, and they'll cease running the moment you replace it with a movement command, even if the movement command is right ontop of them and you're still clearly hostile).

                  Considering ChrisC's very low activity lately I've been kind of hoping he's doing a complete rewrite of them to be fair, as currently the very basis of the AI seems to be flawed to a point where these easily exploitable flaws will never be gotten rid of.
                  Last edited by Arxos; 11-18-2012, 06:54 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    @Arxos

                    The point is, you shouldn't have to exploit bugs that wouldn't work in real games to win the game mode meant to prepare you for said real games by letting you learn how to play.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just chiming in to add one last bit: the KSing problem extends to Blink Dagger users. If you're getting a solo kill somewhere, prepare to see all of your team's Dagger users pop in with Blink + their nuke and steal the kill. Tidehunter would watch allies die in the distance and act like he's AFK, but as soon as he sees someone get on low HP, he pulls off some greatly timed Blink + Ravages. F***ing asshole. Windrunner does it with Force Staff + Powershot as well (ironically enough the KS powershots are the ONLY good powershots she lands, all the other powershots are 90° off).
                      Last edited by Radio; 11-18-2012, 02:49 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Timelimit View Post
                        @Arxos

                        The point is, you shouldn't have to exploit bugs that wouldn't work in real games to win the game mode meant to prepare you for said real games by letting you learn how to play.
                        I find it hard -not to- exploit them at this point. I mean quite frankly it's hard not to 'abuse' you getting a 0m DD rune to score a kill on your lane. I mean what am I supposed to do when their AI starts spazzing out because of me doing something completely logical? Not take the kill? Be like 'Well, in a real match we would've only gotten 1 of them so I'll just walk back now'?
                        Or when I get a level advantage in lane allowing me to easily kill the enemy. The bots generally don't react to this danger until I'm in their face killing them yet again. Should I go 'Well no real player would come back to the lane after dying 5 times without getting a single last hit or even a point of experience, so I should just ignore him'
                        Or when harassing the enemy bots using cheap spells, they instantly think you're initiating and throw out all their spells on you. Should I stop harassing because well, no real players would act wasteful like that allowing me to easily kill them once their mana is depleted.

                        I am NOT going to change the way basic game logic works because the bots are stupid. You should understand that often times I'm not actually going out of my way to make bots spaz out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Please fix Dazzle bot, he AFKpushes by spamming Shadow Wave every single time it's off CD, taking lasthits and pushing the lane which results in him feeding like crazy and you getting no farm. Also these ranged heroes constantly pull creeps to them from level 1 on, which means you'll have to chase creeps and you'll miss lots of 'em to the tower at level 1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Also they constantly leave the lane for no damn reason, they just walk back to the base at full health and leave you alone vs. f***ing Kunkka Dazzle or some other idiotic duo whose only intent is to nuke you over and over while eating clarities (and by the way, why the heck is Lich constantly out of mana?!). Derp.

                            Seriously this is what happens when you go to the short lane

                            - Windrunner blocks the lane at the start which is annoying already.
                            - If the creeps aren't dying to the tower yet, she makes sure to aggro right away and pulls the enemy wave into the tower.
                            - She then goes aggressive by shooting some shackle at somebody, walks into the tower and dies.
                            - TPs back into lane, pushes with powershot then leaves you alone and walks all the way across the map to feed kills there.

                            Step 3 and 4 are interchangeable.

                            I don't know if one can do something worse other than feeding the courier right away - bots only do that later on.

                            And please fix their behavior when someone is trying to FARM. It's so incredibly annoying to get griefed so hard. Whenever you try to farm there's your entire team wasting 4 teleports into that lane and spamming their nukes, then leaving. At least make them respond to input by the player. If you say "NO PLEASE I BEG YOU" when they say "PUSHING BOT", make so they leave. Jeez.
                            Last edited by Radio; 11-19-2012, 06:21 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              @Arxos

                              There's a difference between exploiting a bug and having said bug occur. Forcing the bots to spaz out so you can win the lane is exploiting the bug, while just trying to score a kill and having the bots randomly spaz out while you're doing so is not abusing the bug.

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