More Lich bot updates

[overbyte]

I've seen some old threads about fixing Lich's ult usage, but some more suggestions:

• He should as much as possible save Chain Frost for teamfights especially when midgame hits. Sometimes he fires it off when we are ganking one overextended enemy hero at full health and 4 of their buddies are alive and nearby, leaving us with one less crowd control if a teamfight ensues. Frost Blast should be highly preferred on single targets if it's available. Having him just autoattack is IMO better than wasting Chain Frost. But against 2 close enemy heroes running away from us with no creeps nearby? Fire away.
• During laning phase with a carry, he should prioritize Sacrifice on the ranged creep if there is one, that way the enemy wave gets pulled to your tower and safer farming for your allied carry player. He seems to basically cast Sacrifice currently on whatever allied creep is nearby or whoever has highest HP. That's nice, but the ranged creep is better.
• When alone, at low HP, and running from the 5-man enemy ball of death he should not stop to cast Frost Armor on me while I force staff him to safety. Sometimes he doesn't know to behave after being staffed and runs back to the enemy team (probably the force staff usage breaking his AI pathing or something)

[ChrisC]

Good suggestions, thanks.

[Django]

using sacrifice on the ranged creep during laning phase is just stupid.

melee gives u way more mana and it pulls the creepwave just as good as sacrifcing a ranged one. i'd highly dislike to see lich using sacrifice on ranged creeps only.

also make him spam his nuke during lane on heroes, he got the mana for this.

[Arxos]

I do agree that it's not worth using Sacrifice on ranged creeps, the difference in mana gained is not worth the difference in push.
If anything, only make him do so when at full mana (But if he's doing shit right, he should only be at full mana at the start of the game...)

[Karyoplasma]

You should NEVER sacrifice a ranged creep, simply because a melee creep gives more XP.

[rawker]

Depends on player preference, IMO.

If you want to starve the enemy on exp or you wanted to get more MP back, then by all means, sac the melee creep. But if you want the wave to push towards you and starve them on gold(and helps you in the long run by CSing within your tower range), then sac the ranged creep.

[Karyoplasma]

It's way easier to deny the ranged creep, because it stands in a safer position for you.

[Arxos]

It's way easier to deny the ranged creep, because it stands in a safer position for you.

You're doing something very very wrong if that's an issue... Lich's endless mana makes him a very aggresive support laner, the situation should be the complete opposite.
Though of course a little bit of AI to make him not kill himself while going to Sacrifice something is good, but assuming average laning conditions this should never be a deciding factor really.

[Karyoplasma]

You're doing something very very wrong if that's an issue... Lich's endless mana makes him a very aggresive support laner, the situation should be the complete opposite.
Though of course a little bit of AI to make him not kill himself while going to Sacrifice something is good, but assuming average laning conditions this should never be a deciding factor really.

You misunderstood. rawker was arguing that sacrificing the ranged creep will starve the enemies more gold-wise. I meant to say that the ranged creep is easier to deny with an auto-attack because it is usually positioned closer to your tower, so you don't need to blow your Sacrifice for it.

[rawker]

While it is true that denying the ranged creep is easier by auto attacking, the point is, you will be standing right next to them, behind melee creep line. No one is that skilled to pull a ranged-creep-first blocking all the time and the best, and fastest way to push the creep wave towards your tower is to get rid of the most damaging creep of all, which is the ranged creep, asap. Since the melee creep wave is constantly getting damaged, it is wiser to deny them via last hitting. And first of all, Lich shouldn't be competing LH with his lane partner, is he?

[assteepee]

And first of all, Lich shouldn't be competing LH with his lane partner, is he?

He will be if he lanes with slardar! Jesus christ almost every single support bot competes for cs with slardar! Sorry to get waaaay off topic but that sentence just reminded me of how annoying this was...

[Karyoplasma]

While it is true that denying the ranged creep is easier by auto attacking, the point is, you will be standing right next to them, behind melee creep line. No one is that skilled to pull a ranged-creep-first blocking all the time and the best, and fastest way to push the creep wave towards your tower is to get rid of the most damaging creep of all, which is the ranged creep, asap. Since the melee creep wave is constantly getting damaged, it is wiser to deny them via last hitting. And first of all, Lich shouldn't be competing LH with his lane partner, is he?

As said: sacrificing a melee creep pushes the lane back just as effectively as sacrificing the ranged creep. And what has denying to do with taking the last hits? You don't really make any sense here.

[rawker]

@assteepee
I think it's because the AI doesn't know how to react to certain heroes. A friend of mine noticed that bots doesn't harass him, as the Broodmother when hidden in her web. There are also times that the bots doesn't actually harass but gets almost all denies.

@Karyoplasma
Isn't it that the use of Sacrifice, other than regaining mana, is to deny and potentially starve the enemy from exp and gold? Besides, weren't you the first to bring up the last hitting thing?

You misunderstood. rawker was arguing that sacrificing the ranged creep will starve the enemies more gold-wise. I meant to say that the ranged creep is easier to deny with an auto-attack because it is usually positioned closer to your tower, so you don't need to blow your Sacrifice for it.

Less creeps on your side means that you have better chances that your carry will be able to last hit behind tower range while you make sure, as the Lich, to make it harder for the enemy. And if I'm not making myself clear, you deny the melee creep via last hitting them since they're in the front line. Finally, I guess that you should have gotten the message in that last statement - that it was intended as something to lighten up the discussion, and not to escalate it in a heated discussion; to which I'm quite sure, the direction where you're headed. Cheer up.

[Timelimit]

A friend of mine noticed that bots doesn't harass him, as the Broodmother when hidden in her web.

Because he's invisible?

[rawker]

nope. even after using dust, they just follow her.