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Bots flaws

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  • Bots flaws

    I will talk only about unfair bots, since this is the only difficulty I consider worthy of thrashing.

    I will talk phase by phase the fundamental flaws in how bots think that even players I consider bad know of, these should be known by bots if they are ever to be considered even a challenging opponent by decent players.


    Z: All times:
    1) Fail to recognize if they can chase an enemy or not, they attempt to do so
    2) No good juking, just usual fogging
    3) Bad pathing to run away
    4) Always 2-1-2
    5) Bad item choices, this ones should be re evaluated based on pro games and very high skill level games, not common trends of retards.
    6) Ganks are too lineal, they won't attempt to surround the enemy, they gank using the shortest path.
    7) They attempt to use spells really badly on ganks rather than first position themselves then use the spells properly, related to the above.
    8) No smoke ganks
    9) GET HIM! KILL HIM! IGNORE HIS TEAM, HIS TOWERS, HIS CREEPS, YOUR HP, KILL HIM! Seriously, they can't change focus at all, maybe related to the one mentality (C10)

    A: Pre game phase:

    1) No rune control, they will never attempt to get the min 0 runes.
    2) No creep blocking, they just never attempt to do so.
    3) No jungle blocking against common junglers such as Chen, Enchantress, etc
    4) No jungle defense, it is pretty easy to infiltrate their jungle
    5) No wards adaptation, they always place the same wards, in the same order, at the same time

    B: Laning phase:
    1) Terrible lasthitting except Sniper, they always try to lasthit whenever they have enough damage to kill the creep instead of when if they would launch the hit when the hit arrives it would lasthit, fundamental flaw in the bots lasthitting design, the only exception seems to be player hits, which LOOKS fine, but personally I can't be bothered to check.
    2) No pulling, they never attempt to stack and pull camps to get extra farm and exp.
    3) No aggression, they just sit there defensively trying to get lasthits all day and only go aggressive when it is OBVIOUS that they can get a kill, AKA enemy makes a mistake, they never tro to force the mistakes, to take lane control by harassing the enemy with aggression, it is pretty easy to see why for example Tiny bot is just that bad and I am pretty sure Axe bot would be worse than a feeding CM, also Viper bot pretty much never abuses his orb, he only uses it instead of his regular attack.
    4) They don't react to wildking tornado
    5) No lane control to get runes, many heroes depend a lot on getting runes to establish a lane dominance, bots lane control is non existent, you can control the wave as you please with any autoattacker against Krobelus which is just bad.
    6) Only lasthit, leave them alone and they will just attempt to lasthit instead of pushing the lane and pressuring the tower.
    7) No early lane rotation, they just sit there.
    8) Poor skill build on some heroes (can't be bothered to check them all, but as an easy example, Zeus does not start with arc)
    9) For some reason sometimes the mid solo tries HARD to get the min 0 rune and loses 1-2 waves of exp (72926757)

    C: Early-mid game phase:
    1) Too many rotations for ganks and pushes, they attempt to gank and push with numbers while any competent player will just avoid the gank, get 1 more guy coming and stop the push with nukes while making them lose a TON of farm you just simply win the game by not moving around pointlessly.
    2) Attempt ganks for the sake of ganking
    3) They gank the most farmed heroes instead of the easy lanes to gank and push
    4) They won't try to use runes to gank
    5) They don't counter gank
    6) Non existent map awareness
    7) Bad warding
    8) Poor mana management
    9) No usage of nukes to farm (Strong problem of B5)
    10) One mentality, if they decide to do something they stick to it badly instead of adapting fast to how the enemy is responding
    11) Stupid usage of powerful spells, such as multiple long cooldown ultimates to get 1 kill. (e.g. Ravage, Eclipse, thundergod's wrath to get 1 kill when there is a 4-1 situation with other disables)
    12) Won't use their nukes when they are for sure dead (e.g. DK not using breath).


    D: Mid-game to Late-game phase:
    When losing: All of the above except using nukes to farm
    When winning: Sometimes they farm efficiently, only of on position 1 and even then sometimes they don't, all of the above still.
    1) Won't pressure their advantages, fail to recognize easy towers to take down and when it is an easy moment to do Roshan unless it is something like 5 enemies down
    2) Won't spend their gold when they have good amounts of it
    3) TP to defend lost towers and die in the process
    4) Can't stop the feed, the snowballing effect on bots is just too big, if they feed, they keep on feeding even more.
    5) Hard carries stop their farm to defend pressure rather than TPing when enemy pushes

    E: Late-game:
    All of the above and:
    1) Fail to recognize when they can do stuff solo, like pushing a tower alone and get away, do roshan alone, etc.
    2) Will never backdoor.
    3) Won't go for a throne race ever.
    4) Push in order of tower, rax, throne tower, throne rather than skipping rax if it is possible to win the game before enemy respawns.

  • #2
    Well a number of your suggestions are kind of 'luxury', like throne race, which doesn't truly belong in a list of 'fundamental things in order to pose a challenge'. They're definitely nice to add at some point, but for now I'd say the critical ones are:
    Z1, Z5, Z6, Z9
    A5
    B2, B6, B8
    C1, C5, C6, C10
    D3

    There are some other ones which are obviously important also, like D4, but it is an underlying issue that is a result of many other issues with the bots, hence they can only be tackled by tackling a large multitude of other ones. A fair number of the issues I called out are ones that'll work towards fixing those things.
    I'd like to make a mention of B3 as well. The issue confuses me as the bots seem very random in their aggression. If they get it into their mind that they have the upper hand, they will tower dive you whenever they got the chance, but if they aren't 100% sure they're winning the lane their behaviour is passive, even if they're leaning more towards winning than losing, or even if they aren't but the lane is currently 1v2. It is also passive when they're not winning the lane and should be playing defensive.

    Additionally:
    1) Terrible lasthitting except Sniper, they always try to lasthit whenever they have enough damage to kill the creep instead of when if they would launch the hit when the hit arrives it would lasthit, fundamental flaw in the bots lasthitting design, the only exception seems to be player hits, which LOOKS fine, but personally I can't be bothered to check.
    This is false actually. I've seen them do it at times.
    9) No usage of nukes to farm (Strong problem of B5)
    They do, but the requirements for them to use nukes to farm is a bit off. They'll mainly use skills in order to push or defend, sometimes also to farm but much to rarely, and never when an enemy is present or during laning phase regardless of enemy presence.


    I personally think adjusting their skill builds and item builds is the #1 thing to do with bots right now. They're static builds right now so adjusting shouldn't be hard to do, but beyond that I'd say that dynamic bot builds is on #1 as well, just having proper items makes a huge difference to how powerful a hero is.
    I'd really like a word on it from ChrisC as to what his plan with this is.
    Last edited by Arxos; 12-04-2012, 04:22 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, they are not in any order of importance, maybe later I will order them around.

      For B1 I am pretty sure they don't do it well, I've easily won lasthits against them with heroes with clearly inferior damage,I think the lasthitting could still be imporived, mine is not that good but I still manage to farm decently.

      Comment


      • #4
        +1. That's a big list, and makes a lot of good points about the bots behavior. Also agree Arxos' list points out a few that seem most critical. Focusing on and fixing those alone would be quite a boon for bots and would ultimately add more variety to how the games play out. I feel one of the biggest issue with bots right now is just how much deja vu I go through between games just because of how static their behavior can be.

        I also think in general that bots need to become more adaptable to the situation, individually aware of the roles they take as part of a team, and also how to better use and abuse various mechanics.

        I'm hopeful that most of these issues are already being looked in to, and that it's just going to take some time. I know it's been said somewhere on here before that dynamic item builds for bots will be added in the future.. So, we're on our way

        Comment


        • #5
          @C9

          I think the problem here isn't that bots don't farm with nukes, just that they barely farm at all past early game, and if it looks like they're farming it's probably them trying to push.

          Comment


          • #6
            I know the discussion here is about unfair, but I saw a lot of occurrences in hard (not sure if it applies to unfair as well) where there is an incoming wave of creeps + 4-5 enemy heroes going on a tower of mine, let's say bot. My heroes say "defending bot". They go in to defend using TP and what not, wait 3 seconds, then retreat and by the time their half way to some useless position the enemies come and I am left alone facing the Armageddon of doom from the enemy team.

            I won't mention stupid scenarios where they TP from the ancient to the fountain or try to TP while in the middle of 3-4-5 enemies and so on.
            There are times where my team is so incredibly good I can't believe it myself, but most times I just want to smash my monitor and actually miss the good old human newbie players that have more common sense.

            I think the main problem with bots is their triggers are activated at wrong times without adapting (C10). Ping replies are bad. They can't tell the difference between a Roshan attack or a Roshan gank and if you ping and enemy they sometimes just move forward and back without attacking but take damage. Still the most annoying and funny thing I can't ignore is the fact that no matter how close 2 enemy heroes are, if there are creeps around, they just farm them ignoring each other. They seem to have no knowledge or awareness of passive damage.

            Second annoying thing is when they chase an enemy but don't use spells, they have an ulti but don't use it, they have a disable but don't use it and so on (C11, C12).
            From the killstealing Zeus, we now have a Zeus that uses his ulti only if planets are aligned and you're in luck. You have a Dazzle that graves when the enemy has a lot of HP to run only for your last hit\DOT to kill them and generally feeding supports (not in the "it's ok, you're support" or "i die so you can escape" way, but more in the "if a bot is support he MUST feed" kinda way, as if it's their job to do so. When I play support for bots and just for the heck of it try to farm 25% of the creeps I actually see the carry letting me. While it's nice (and some human players do it too), they exaggerate to the point where they actually let me farm and involuntarily think they expect me to carry.
            Explanations on the normal, high and very high brackets in replays: here, here & here
            Why maphacks won't work in D2: here

            Comment


            • #7
              As stated by other posters, your suggestions are luxury since what the bots do at the moment is act retarded and move around the map as 5 at all times. They have no condition-based decision-making and they will simply follow a schedule, that's why you see them dive 1v5. If you ping an enemy tower and you have Death Prophet on your team she will ult instantly even if she's in the fountain. They can't even react to vision on the minimap, pretty sure they have vision on Rosh at all times yet you can just go in there and solo Roshan, they won't react.

              Several characters at some point will try to farm the hard camps, since they're underleveled they almost die to the camp, so they go back to the fountain, then back to the same camp and get stuck doing this back and forth comedy for the remainder of the game

              They also exclusively use spells on the human player and follow you around to gank you 24/7, that's pretty much the most intelligent thing they do.
              Last edited by Radio; 12-06-2012, 12:34 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Excellent list, Arxos noted the important bits. The only thing I have to add is that the bots never try to stun while chasing (Sven, ES, SK could easily make lots of kills this way).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Interesting list, but, yeah, the major problem from what I have seen playing some games for practice is that the bots will never give up on a kill. I remember a bot chasing a full health Razor and completely ignoring a 30HP Sven. That should be a reasonably easy fix. Also, seriously, bots are pretty competent at last hitting, I saw Lina, for example, doing that prediction thing you mentioned. However, there is one problem I have with the list: you are trying to make what are effectively pro bots. While that is ok, unfair bots are pretty much hard bots with their reaction time jacked up to 11 at the moment. That would take a lot of work for most of these changes.

                  Another thing I noticed is that they will always try to gank the hard carry in the team, no matter what, and that they will always stun to cancel a channeling ability, no matter how important it is. Also, I noticed rather weird interaction with Bloodseeker. I am pretty sure they never use their TP scroll if they have to run from him when he uses Rupture.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Xenotechie View Post
                    Interesting list, but, yeah, the major problem from what I have seen playing some games for practice is that the bots will never give up on a kill. I remember a bot chasing a full health Razor and completely ignoring a 30HP Sven. That should be a reasonably easy fix. Also, seriously, bots are pretty competent at last hitting, I saw Lina, for example, doing that prediction thing you mentioned. However, there is one problem I have with the list: you are trying to make what are effectively pro bots. While that is ok, unfair bots are pretty much hard bots with their reaction time jacked up to 11 at the moment. That would take a lot of work for most of these changes.

                    Another thing I noticed is that they will always try to gank the hard carry in the team, no matter what, and that they will always stun to cancel a channeling ability, no matter how important it is. Also, I noticed rather weird interaction with Bloodseeker. I am pretty sure they never use their TP scroll if they have to run from him when he uses Rupture.
                    They never while in sight of a visible enemy hero. They only TP when their vision is dropped for a second, like for example if they go up a cliff they'll just instantly go "Oh, he can't see me, now is a good time to teleport"
                    But if you're whacking away at him, they won't consider that, even if you have no way to interrupt it.

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