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Playing with bots is infuriating- AI, team lineup, dives, feed etc

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  • Playing with bots is infuriating- AI, team lineup, dives, feed etc

    So after playing a ton of matches with bots and realized that they are plagued with problems I decided to write the most common ones. As we know, their AI isnt great, specially if they are in your team. Bots also chase a hero like crazy and will focus on the human player most of the time. Ive got to admit, playing with bots is fucking frustrating sometimes, I think even more than playing against human players that are costing you the match.

    -Team line up will decide the fate of your bots and most probably the match
    If the enemy team picks either Luna, Necro, Warlock, Viper, Sven, Sniper or Chaos Knight, your bots will feed. It doesnt matter, these bots will wreck them. The only thing that may (may) avoid this is having your bots in a higher difficulty than the enemy team. However between Hard and Unfair there isnt much difference other than extra xp and gold (I refuse to put all enemy bots on medium). I just had a match where I was Pudge and my team was made of a Crystal Maiden (terrible bot), Earthshaker (not so good bot), Jakiro (its an ok bot) and Luna (one of the better bots). The enemy team picked Drow Ranger, Chaos Knight, Sven, Necro and Death Profet. All bots were on hard, except C.Knight that was on medium. Do I need to say how it went? I mean, they had 5 carries for gods sake. My bots feed like hell. Still, I ended up up 17-11 and we lost. Luna 12-14, CM 5-15 ES 6-14 and Jakiro 7-7. Not even with an enemy bot on medium difficulty the bots were useful. It doesn't matter how good you do, even if you dont die, your bots will always feed, its infuriating. The only solution is to buy boots of travel and split push if you know its over already, great, how fun is that.
    You should be able to pick your team, period. The only thing you can do now is suggesting 2 heroes, which the bots will chose, but still you should be able to suggest the entire line up.

    -Bots cant deal with Viper
    Seriously, a Viper bot will end a game with 20+ kills. Just watch your bots initiate him in a 1vs1 only to retreat and face their death. Add a manta style and bkb to him and he becomes unstoppable. Suggest him for your team if you want an easy win.

    -Bots cant deal with Warlock ult.
    Do yourself a favour, if the enemy team picks Warlock, disconnect to avoid rage. I cant even count the numerous times I lost bot matches because of this. Not because I cant handle it, but your stupid bots cant. Everytime Warlock ults, he wipes out your entire team. Your bots dont know how to react, they even run back to the golems just to ensure they die to them, wtf is this shit? By the time you look at the score, Warlock already has +10 kills and Scepter. gg!

    -Bots with orb walking tower dive you. Easy first blood.
    Its stupidly easy to get Viper or Drow to tower dive you.

    -Bots initiating vs a 5 man team
    Another problem, bots will initiate even if they are outnumbered. I ping them to retreat but no, they will go for it, only feeding the enemy team some more. Hmm whats that Crystal Maiden? Going against them alone? Well Im sure she will do well.

    -Bots stick as a 5 man team most of the time
    Once mid game starts, enemy bots will stick together to push whatever tower has the least HP. This makes it hard to gank them, because if you get near, you will probably be stun locked to death. Bots also tend to TP their ENTIRE team when a human player is attacking one of their towers. I mean, I think one or two bots would be enough to defend it, but no, they all TP to try kill you.

    -Bots will chase you from their base to your fountain
    Nothing more needs to be said about this really. It applies to both teams.

    -Sand King gets stuck on the trees if he uses burrowstrike. Then he doesn't get out, ever.
    This usually happens in early game where the bot doesn't have a TP. He doesn't even uses tangos/burrowstrike again to get out and becomes stuck forever until you help him out.

    -Zeus bot is the most worthless pile of shit if hes on your team
    Great coding here Valve! This little shit wont kill anything with his ult other than kill stealing from you! I had matches where he could have killed 3, THREE FUCKING BOTS WITH HIS ULT, but what does he do? NOTHING. He just chases after them like a bloody retard. And then when Im going to kill this bot, here comes my last hit and gold.. YOU CANT RUN FROM HEAVEN ***ZAPPP*** KILL STEAL MOTHERFUCKER!

    -Your Bots (not just Zeus) kill steal from you, the fuckers
    Example: you're sniper/dragon knight/drow/any carry hero, and you're chasing down an enemy. The moment you start hitting him, lets say your Lina ally will chase him. That bitch will wait until the enemy hero is killable to use her dragon fire/ult to finish him off. This makes me fucking mad because you can see your bots just chasing the enemy and doing NOTHING, ZERO, they dont attack them despite being right behind, but the moment they go low hp and you're going for the final blow, BAM they throw their spells on them and get the gold. This just happen twice in the same match, its the same kind of behaviour everytime.

    -Your Bots steal the runes if you're on mid
    Got a bottle? Well too bad, that team bot just snatched that tasty regeneration rune... with fucking full HP.

    -Your Bots will use courier to buy items that they can get at the side shop
    Magic stick? Sage Mask? Fuck that, ill just the use the courier instead! Annoying if you're on mid and need to use it asap.

    -Bots maphacking
    Another thing that annoys me, bots seem to know exactly where you are, and theres no wards or anything. Are you farming in the Jungle? Well here comes a torrent out of nowhere and Kunkka and Lion, or a silence by Death Prophet (when you're clearly on fog of war). Other times a 5 man team will appear out of nowhere from the fog and insta-chain you to death. Trying to gank bots? Well watch how they retreat the exact moment you right click/ping on them. They also know where the runes will appear and snatch them before you.

    -Bots avoiding Hooks/Suntrikes/Arrows
    Painfully obvious when playing as Pudge. Bots will avoid them even if they have no vision of you. Same goes for Sunstrike. They wont most likely dodge when they are doing something else like focusing to kill a hero.

    -Bots ignore your illusions and know who the real one is
    This pisses me off so much, they always know which one is the real one and ignore the illusions. Getting an illusion rune is pretty much useless.

    -Bots cheating mana
    It seems this is a common issue where bots will pull mana out of their asses just to run away or harass you. Sven, Chaos Knight and Jakiro seem to be the ones that do this the most. Theres no magic stick, no clarity potion, nothing, they will just use it when they feel like it.

    -Bots too aggressive in the laning phase
    Enemy bots (Hard and Unfair) will throw everything at you in the lane, and if you add the mana cheating issue, this is a pain in the ass to deal with. Also they seem to be able to harass you by auto-attacking without even aggroing your creeps. (Im looking at you Witch Doctor) And what about your bots? They dont even harass the enemy as much they do to you.

    -Bots cheating speed
    I confirmed this in one ocasion by chasing a low hp Lion. I had 370 speed+ phase boots, he had 350 and mana boots, no drums, no buffs or debuffs (like Track or Warcry etc). I was right behind, running in a straight line, no fog of war, and I couldn't hit him once! This was the only time I was pretty sure bots were speed hacking. There has been other reports that you cant outrun certain bots when running away.

    -Bots still buyback if killed by Necrolytes ultimate plus Scepter
    You cant buyback if youre killed by Nectos ult+ scepter, however Ive seen bots do it, and its confirmed by other people.

    -Bots godlike reactions
    On hard and unfair, its almost impossible to land a spell on bots without being stunned first. Even if you blink in and they have no vision of you, they will instantly stun your ass. They are also super good at denying, buts thats a minor issue.

    -Team bots throwing away matches in late game
    Even if me and my bots get early/mid game with kills, when they enemy team is farmed enough and starts their 5 man team tower rampage, my bots will throw the game away by dying to them all the damn time, specially if the opponents have any of the carry bots I talked about before. This really gets me angry because it seems they turn into full retard mode for the rest of the game.

    -Bots refusing to attack barracks
    In some close matches, and after taking down the tower thats defending the raxs, they will go back to the creep wave. While they are doing this, the enemy team will teleport there/buy back and whipe them out. However the enemy team NEVER does this, they will make sure that they destroy them, while your bots (if they're alive) just stand there and watch them go down.

    -Your bots will leave you alone to die
    Hey lets gank that Drow Ranger guys, here we go! (pings on her).. guys? Guys? Oh righ, they went back, only to let you die to the other bots that appeared out of nowhere or just bought back.

    -Team bots are always inferior to the enemy
    -Bots will retreat, then dive and feed .
    -they will use their abilities to KS from you instead of helping (I didnt mind if I wasn't the guy trying to carry this freaking game).
    -Sven will pop his ultimate, then retreat, wasting it.
    -supports initiate battles.
    -sometimes while "Doing Roshan" they just stand there and dont attack even if the entire team is present.
    -when the enemy is 5 man pushing, lone team bots will cross their path despite the map clearly showing that they are dangerously close, again feeding

    I always play against hard bots while sometimes mixing them with medium ones. I put my team bots on hard or Unfair. Like the match example I gave, even with one enemy bot on medium, it pretty much depends on the line up. Even if you carry like hell, theres no stopping your bots from feeding the enemy if the opponent bots are on hard and selected certain heroes.
    I even had games, completely dominating the bots, I ended something like 20-2 and we lost because our bots feed too much. Even with split push + boots of travel, nothing will guarantee that you will win. Its the only strategy, but its lame doing it, takes the fun away.
    Again, I give you the example of this Pudge match, it was what I was doing, I managed to destroy their last top tower and begun attacking their raxes, only for the enemy bots to teleport all into there. No problem right? Ill just back off... and then watch them kill all my bots in mid as they initiated one at a time. All dead, ~90 seconds to respawn, no buyback, gg. Pathetic and fucking frustrating.

    I'll keep this updated.
    Last edited by Garry70; 11-07-2013, 12:00 PM.

  • #2
    Hit then nail on the head: everything you said is 100% accurate and I myself have posted about nearly all these things. Sadly, ChrisC has been reassigned to bug fixes a few weeks ago and the bots have been skipped in the weekly updates since then. I'm not sure if anyone is currently working on the AI, seems not. But I really hope they improve on at least some of the major issues like the map hacking, mana cheating, and retarded 1 by 1 waling into 5 enemies. Good post nevertheless.
    Last edited by SolidAsARock; 06-05-2013, 08:30 PM.


    • #3
      I agree, I can stomp the bots 1v5 with any teamfight oriented hero, and I do play like that most of the time because the allied AI is actually a detriment to your team, omni bot uses his purification exclusively to ks, even when people could be saved with it, bots steal regen runes that you could use when they are full hp, they are seemingly designed to make the player experience as miserable as possible. As for the enemy AI they seem to make it their goal to make your game as miserable as possible as well, I've tried standing still as support with no items and I still get 3+ ulti's dropped on me while my allied viper bot sits there killing them all. This AI is a joke and not fit to teach players the basics of the game, it only will confuse and frustrate new players and people who are trying to practice new strats.


      • #4
        I enjoy playing with bots when i'm tired or i simply wanna chill or don't know if i'll have to leave soon. I always play bots in maximum difficulty but i must admit it gets frustrating 9/10 times.

        1. Viper (do i have to say anything else? actually i have: viper + manta + BKB = you may forfeit your game).
        2. Bots in opposite team play it well: tidehunter dagger + ulti, chain stun with deadly accuracy, bkb+tp out of danger, etc.
        3. Bots in your team are absolute garbage all the time:
        - they don't follow your pings,
        - they buy always the same items even if already someone has it: i.e. Necro always buys Mek. no matter what.
        - they try to 'defend' 1vs5 and feed once again
        - they mindlessly spam their abilities (dazzle heal for no good reason except to push the lane into oblivion).
        - they simply don't use their abilities (necro needs to have an epiphany to use his skills)
        - they don't show their combo wombo skills when they are in your team (remember tide using blink+ulti? GL with that when he is in your team).
        4. Their judgement is absolutely garbage, sometimes they don't go for a sure and safe kill, other times they enter "must kill enemy" mode and dive into oblivion. (the dive part happens to both teams at least).
        5. Enemy bots seems to have a personal vendetta on you. In teamfights you will get focused HARD and efficiently no matter how important your hero is for that fight/match.
        6. they will steal runes for no good reason.
        7. etc. etc. etc.


        • #5
          This is one of the best threads about bots' bugs/errors/etc. Besides, I'd like to add something more.

          There are some issues with the bots tagged as hard carry. enemy team is pushing as 5 like hell, when you ping em to come to defend, they stop and wait there like 10 20 secs and do nothing in jungle until enemy team reaches the last tower before raxes. And they come to defend with like 300-400 hp because of the jungle farming and feed finally ofc.

          And, IDK why these bots always pick necrolyte. I am fucking tired to see this hero in my game with bots.

          And this pinging issue while you have to defend sometimes occurs and ALL OF THE BOTS DO THIS. they just stop and wait like 20 secs for nothing while enemy team is crushing the towers.


          • #6
            I also heard that if you just farm and leave the bots alone and dont interfere they will do fine. Really?

            How is this even possible? Look at this, look how they feed Luna, are you serious? Even more, both enemy Zeus and Jakiro are on medium and my bots all on hard. How retarted can they be? We won the match (went on for an hour) because I was teleporting to all lanes, push' em until all that was left was the middle racks. But even like this my bots kept dying like tards, we lost the middle barracks due to their usual suicidal tendencias and almost threw the match away again. If I wasnt NP, we would lost. Finally obtained ultra mega creeps by myself to win. Its disgusting. See how bad Razor did? If he was on the enemy team he would carry no problem, but no, hes on my team, he plays terrible.

            And why instead of pushing they insist farming the jungle? Even if I ping like a mad man, WHY?

            Again problem with the line up, Luna (one of the godlike bots) is on the enemy team, I dont have any of them, bam, let the feed begin, let the the 1vs5 initiations begin. Gosh, did they even test these bots?
            Last edited by Garry70; 06-06-2013, 08:31 PM.


            • #7
              Originally posted by Garry70 View Post
              I also heard that if you just farm and leave the bots alone and dont interfere they will do fine. Really?
              That just happens sometimes, it's not bound to happen. But it's certainly true that I've seen the bots win 4v5 while I was just farming, or heck in some games I could've just gone AFK.
              I remember 1 game in particular where I was spectating 2 friends, and they both were fairly new to the game and performing rather poorly. They would've probably lost, but then Razor went like "NP GUISE I GOT THIS" and just got some crazy farm and 1v5'd the enemy team. I mean literally 1v5, he was chasing some guy all the way from around mid t1 (it was down) to between top t2 and t3, at which point the other bots started coming in, and he just manned the fuck up and killed everyone. Every single person on his team was somewhere else while he just went off and got himself a Rampage.


              • #8
                My biggest problem is late game already(+30mim), the carries are farmed, the gankers/initiators have their core and are in a high level. We have a team fight that ends with with me(our strongest hero) dead, 1-2 very low on health and mana and 3-2 okaish in health and mana. We killed like 2-3 of their heroes, but most of the kill are under-leved suports that will respawn in 20 seconds, while I will take more than a minute, and we still have heroes on fountain or farming the jungle. With these scenario, they will INSIST in pushing with 2-3 so-so heroes against a 5 man fully healed. And many time these pushes are to take tier 3 towers.

                These comportment is very recurring, almost every game there is a fight like these, with a partial victory. The worse part is that after they start with partial team pushes, they never end, cause the pushers will die, and the ones respawning healing will push next, keeping the cycle alive. The only way to break it is if I can take the whole enemy team alone or by split pushing like mad. Even pinging towers to defend cant stop then.

                I wish there was a command like Offensive/Neutral/Defensive to influence the overall desire of the bots to attack/defend.


                • #9
                  I just hate the fact that bots will use targetted heals (Omni, Urn, etc) on illusions rather than your main hero.

                  And I'm sick of Necrolyte.


                  • #10
                    Slightly tangential, but don't brush off being unable to win when your bots feed (which happens often) as unrelated to your own play skill. Even if your bots feed over the moon, if you know what you are doing you can still win comfortably (unless you did something stupid like play a Crystal Maiden).


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tumbla View Post
                      Slightly tangential, but don't brush off being unable to win when your bots feed (which happens often) as unrelated to your own play skill. Even if your bots feed over the moon, if you know what you are doing you can still win comfortably (unless you did something stupid like play a Crystal Maiden).
                      If your bots do nothing but feed the entire damn match there isnt much you can do apart from split pushing with boots of travel, and even with that nothing will guarantee that you will win. What can you do against a team of 5 pushing bots specially when they are fat from killing your team all the time? Do I constantly need to teleport to all lanes from the beginning of the game to support the bots and prevent them from feeding? No. The topic here is that your team bots are retarted. This doesnt happen when playing a bot co-op match, pretty much it ends up something like 40-4 for the human team and the bots have no change.
                      Last edited by Garry70; 06-12-2013, 05:52 PM.


                      • #12
                        I have to completely agree that Allied bots are worthless. I have pretty much rage quit the last half dozen or so times I've tried to kill some time for my friends to be ready to play with me. You can't win if they are feeding while you are mid and lane-ing with one is practically 2v1 with someone taking half your xp


                        • #13
                          If you see the enemy team got Viper and you somewhat got Drow in your team, ggwp. (unless you take Sniper and beat the shit out of Viper's ass during laning phase.)
                          Seriously, Drow on the enemy team is godlike. When she's on your team she went full retard mode.
                          Last edited by Acer13; 06-13-2013, 11:55 PM.


                          • #14
                            All the points here are valid.

                            I find that one of the worst "features" of the bots have is the inability to jump in if you are playing an initiator. Just try and play earthshaker, blink in, get a perfect slam off and get chained to death by 5 enemy heroes all on 10% hp while your allies are standing outside the battle doing absolutely nothing despite your frantic pinging. After you're dead, half of them back off while the other half will suicide to the 5-man team. The other half who ran away will suicide 10 seconds later. Every time. Exactly the same thing with magnus, tidehunter and the like.

                            One other thing that wasn't mentioned in here is that when you're playing support and pull a jungle camp, your lane carry will often get confused by the lack of creeps and stand in the lane getting killed, or in other cases he'll just pull the enemy creepwave and heroes to the camp you pulled your creepwave to. It's actually pretty funny how good they are at that. They can tank under towers fine in other cases, like when defending so it's a bit weird.
                            The bots will also get stuck on clearing jungle camps that get pulled by aoe damage or by whatever (so that they're outside of the spawnpoint). It can be midchase or when rushing to tower, they'll just have to stop to kill all jungle creeps that aren't inside their camps. It gets especially bad if you clear the trees from around the camps.

                            Additional bugs:

                            Sandking is unable to break the sandstorm channeling until it runs out of time or it gets interrupted.

                            Fleeing bots will turn to face the enemy team if you heal them. Even if it was 5 enemies chasing one low bot, the moment you pop a heal on him, he'll turn around and die.

                            Kunkka fails at farming. Big time. He'll go in to hit a creep every once in a while when his tidebringer is up but it happens really randomly and he then just stands back until tidebringer is up again.

                            Bots don't care about death prophet ulti. At least they rarely stand in jakiro ulti, but that might be because jakiro ulti never hits anything in the first place.

                            If you ping an enemy hero and your team goes to chase, additional pings will do nothing: your team will chase the first pinged hero until the enemy tier3 at which point most of them are usually dead or dying.

                            If you ping your own tower/base right after your allies have left to do whatever they like to do, they'll often waste tp scrolls to come back.

                            Enemy bots have no trouble doing roshan while allied bots usually fail to attack or tank him at all.

                            Trying to get your own bots to interrupt enemy rosh attempt: your bots will go and try to kill rosh (=stand there doing nothing) while enemy team will rip you apart.

                            All in all, the bots will teach you almost nothing about the game in their current state as so many of the bot features are just too broken. However, botmatches are good for learning jungling, last-hitting against decent denying (hard and unfair bots on the enemy team are really good at last hitting and denying, I'll give you that) and lane-pulling (that's if you don't mind your lane-partner feeding like mad) and all that mechanical stuff and learning what the hero skills do. But I really couldn't imagine how it'd be like to play with the bots without any prior dota experience. It can't give a good impression about the game.
                            Last edited by Peekafoo; 06-17-2013, 07:13 PM.


                            • #15
                              Yup, playing against a Sniper Bot on hard is hell because he denies almost everything, no fun.

                              Also I talked about the enemy bots maphacking and it amazes me how well they do this and insta stun you to death. I was playing as a Skywrath when suddenly I got hit by by Jakiros ice stun, followed by a torrent and Sand Kings burrow strike. They had no vision what so ever but since the CPU is so damn precise with their attacks that when one gets you, all the others will too. I couldn't do jack shit and died. They must have some kind of "human Player is close radar".

                              Meanwhile your bots never, and I mean NEVER do this.