[Confirmed] Dispersion still reduces damage after Damage Block/Pipe Barrier

[rudybasak]

There are two possible ways Dispersion and damage block can behave according to which is applied first.
1:
- Damage Block
- Dispersion
- Armor

2:
- Dispersion
- Damage Block
- Armor

The current Spectre behavior is incosistent with BOTH. Currently the damage negated from that done to Spectre follows (1), but the damage reflected back to enemies by Spectre follows (2).

Repro:
Lvl Spectre's Dispersion to 4. Get a Crimson Guard
Give Axe 65 damage. (63-67 actually)
Activate Crimson guard active
Axe hits Spectre.

Now according to 1:
after dmg block, dmg is now ~10 (8-12)
dispersed dmg is 10 * 0.22 = ~2
Axe takes 2 dmg reduced by his armor = 1-2
Spectre takes (10-2) dmg reduced by her armor = 8 * armor reduction = ~ 5-6

According to 2:
Dispersed dmg = 65 * 0.22 = ~14
dmg left = 65 - 14 = ~51
Dmg block = 55, dmg left = 0.
Specte takes 0 dmg, axe takes 14 dmg reduced by armor = ~12

The current in-game behavior is Axe takes 12 dmg (following (2)) but Spectre takes 5 dmg (following (1))

[rudybasak]

Just checked, the same is also true for Magical damage block, that is, Pipe of insight active.
Give enemy Dagon 5. Activate pipe. Cast dagon5.

Enemy takes Dispersion dmg -> (800 * 0.22) = 176 magical dmg, reduced to 132 by their magic resistance.
While Spectre first applies dmg block -> (800 - 400) = 400. Then dispersion -> (400 * 0.78) = 312. Then her magic resistance -> (312 * 0.75 * 0.70 * 0.90) = 147

Dispersion should come consistently either before or after Magical dmg block.

[kiru_im_ufo]

I can't help but feel this is actually a good way of it working.

If Dispersion reduced damage would work before damage block, the latter would be WAY more powerful. To use your example a 55 damage-block would completely block any and all damage even if something like 70 is dealt. Damage block needs to happen BEFORE anything else, this is consistent over everything in Dota, as far as I know. I think the only "exception" should be the illusion reduced damage, but I feel like that works differently anyway. It's not the damage reduction of the unit that gets damaged, but rather something from the attacking (illusion) unit.

So in that regard, Dispersion damage reduction really shouldn't work before damage block. But what about damage reflection? It's supposed to reflect a % of the incoming damage in the same damage-type. If damage-block reduces that.. it'd be wrong.


So, in other words: Dispersion reflects 22% of the incoming damage in the same damage type, and reduces the damage Spectre would normally take by 22%. While those two numbers can be different, I feel like that's intended and one of the ideas behind the change. Basically, damage resistance is actually good on Spectre now. Be it through Glimmer. Be it through actual magic-damage during bkb or pipe. (Beastmaster Primal Roar goes through BKB and deals magic damage. Spectre will get stunned, while the damage gets reduced to 0 for her, as 100% magic res is given during bkb, but it'll be still reflected partially now) Be it during Dazzle grave.

[bu3ny]

So it seems like Dispersion's damage reduction is unchanged and still reduces it after armor, magic resistance and damage block (like pre 6.85), but the damage dealt is calculated before those 3. I always thought reflected damage equals the amount of damage blocked. Seems like they are coded separately for some reason. It makes no sense for them to work differently.


Also, pre 6.85, damage reduction and aoe damage was all after magic res, armor and damage block, but before any other kind of reduction (e.g. aphotic shield, aghs upgraded stampede, living armor etc).


This can be easily tested with Elder Titan's Split Earth, since it still is blocked by Damage Block and always results in the same damage, if you keep Spectre's hp the same.


[08:29.03] Elder Titan casts ability Earth Splitter.
[08:30.59] Spectre uses Black King Bar. <--- Spectre will take 0 magical damage
[08:32.19] Spectre hits Elder Titan with Dispersion for 64 damage (2030->1966). <--- Dispersion reflecting magical damage (2243*0.175*0.22*0.75=64)| 2243=spectre hp, 17.5%=Earth Splitter dmg, 0.22=dispersion, 0.75=ET 25% res
[08:32.19] Spectre hits Elder Titan with Dispersion for 52 damage (1966->1914). <--- Dispersion reflecting physical damage (2243*0.175*0.22*0.61=52)| 0.61 = ET 10.8 armor = 39% physical damage resistance
[08:32.19] Elder Titan hits Spectre with Earth Splitter for 306 damage (2243->1937). <--- Physical damage taken from Earth Splitter without damage block (2243*0.175*0.78=306) | spectre with 0 armor (natural order)
[08:34.96] Elder Titan casts ability Earth Splitter. <--- now spectre has a Vanguard (total hp still 2243)
[08:38.12] Spectre hits Elder Titan with Dispersion for 64 damage (1932->1868). <--- Same amount of magial damage dealt to ET again as before
[08:38.12] Spectre hits Elder Titan with Dispersion for 52 damage (1868->1816). <--- Same amount of physical damage dealt to ET again as before
[08:38.12] Elder Titan hits Spectre with Earth Splitter for 274 damage (1982->1708). <--- Physical dmg taken by Spectre ((2243*0.175-40)*0.78=274 | still 0 armor


Expected damage taken with the Vanguard should be: 2243*0.175*0.78-40 = 266. Damage reduction is still after damage block/armor/magic res, instead of before as told in 6.85.

It doesn't really matter for armor and magic res, since they are % based. The end result is always the same, no matter which one reduces first. It mainly matters for Damage Block and magical damage barriers like pipe/flameguard.

[rudybasak]

I still think the intended effect was to have Dispersion come after Damage Block and before Armor/Magic Resistance. That belief stems from the fact that I always thought "Damage Reduction" was a technical term that does not include Damage Block. I am quite possibly wrong, that Dispersion is intended to come before everything, but then that is a huge buff to Vanguard Spectre in the mid game.

[Xibbe]

Blade Mail, Dispersion reflect, Spiked Carapace reflect, and Fatal Bonds are calculated before any damage manipulation, so the reflect component of Dispersion is consistent with other damage reflecting effects. Damage reduction is mostly calculated after damage block and magic barriers, and Dispersion is not an exception, so the damage reduction component of Dispersion is consistent with other damage reducing effects.