Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules

  • No flaming or derogatory remarks, directly or through insinuation.
  • No discussion, sharing or referencing illegal software such as hacks, keygen, cracks and pirated software.
  • No offensive contents, including but not limited to, racism, gore or pornography.
  • No excessive spam/meme, i.e. copious one liners in a short period of time, typing with all caps or posting meme responses (text/image).
  • No trolling, including but not limited to, flame incitation, user provocation or false information distribution.
  • No link spamming or signature advertisements for content not specific to Dota 2.
  • No Dota 2 key requests, sell, trade etc.
  • You may not create multiple accounts for any purpose, including ban evasion, unless expressly permitted by a moderator.

  • Please search before posting. One thread per issue. Do not create another thread if there is an existing one already.
  • Before posting anything, make sure you check out all sticky threads (e.g., this). Do not create new threads about closed ones.
  • It is extremely important that you post in correct forum section.

  • Balance discussion only in Misc.
  • All art related (such as hero model) feedbacks go to Art Feedback Forum.
  • All matchmaking feedback should go here: Matchmaking Feedback
  • All report/low priority issues should go here: Commend/Report/Ban Feedback
  • No specific workshop item feedback. These should go to workshop page of that item.
  • When posting in non-bugs section (such as this), use [Bugs], [Discussion] or [Suggestion] prefix in your thread name.



In case you object some action by a moderator, please contact him directly through PM and explain your concerns politely. If you are still unable to resolve the issue, contact an administrator. Do not drag these issues in public.



All rules are meant to augment common sense, please use them when not conflicted with aforementioned policies.
See more
See less

[Confirmed] Negative armor has a different effect in DotA2 in comparison to Dota1

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [Confirmed] Negative armor has a different effect in DotA2 in comparison to Dota1

    According to the mechanics area on playdota.com when having negative armor the following formula is used to calculate the increased damage:
    Code:
    1 - 0.94 ^ (-armor)
    with a cap for negative armor of -20. This results in a maximum of 71% increased damage through negative armor.

    DotA2 whatsoever seems to use a different coefficient than 0.94 also it seems it is not capped to -20. I did some quick tests with Ogre Magi on level 25 with 6 hots (12 armor) and several items and spells to reduce its armor (melt, dazzle ult, venge wave, slaradar ult, desolator, medalion and AC) resulting in negative armor values of around -44. So in total 12 - 44 = -32. This should result in -71%! The tooltip showed 65% extra damage, so there must be something wrong (or of course playdota.com is wrong on that!)
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Just a wild guess, but it looks like the minimum armour cap (at least in the tooltip) is base armor -20.

    Ogre magi has a base armor of 3 + 14 agi /7 ~= 5. So according to my guess, -17 armor would be his minimum, which corresponds to 65.072% increased damage.

    You should try to hit him and look at the damage log, to check that it corresponds the tooltip.

    Comment


    • #3
      So I did some smaller research on this and thing it really is a bug! I again tested with Templar Assasin against a Ogre Magi. Debuffs were: AC, Desolator, Slardar Ult and Medalion of courage. Below is my documenation and the formulas I used.
      And yes shalafi you are right, when I substract -20 (cap) from the base armor I end up at the 65.072%!

      Ogre base armor:
      2.96

      Ogre agi total:
      51+20

      Armor on Hero according to stats panel:
      12

      Armor on hero calculated from stats:
      2.96 + ((14+(25*1.55)+20)/7) = 13.3528571
      http://goo.gl/kEHzT

      Minus Armor:
      -5 AC
      -6 Desolator
      -6 Medalion
      -16 Slardar Ultimate (level 3)

      Armor total shown by stats panel:
      12-33

      Armor total calculate from stats
      2.96 + ((14+(25*1.55)+20)/7) + (-5 - 6 -6 -16) = -19.6471429
      http://goo.gl/StfuE

      Damage gain shown:
      54%

      Damage gain expected:
      (1-0.94^(-((2.96 + ((14+(25*1.55)+20)/7)) + (-5 - 6 -6 -16)))) = 0.703490167
      http://goo.gl/GxemR

      Lanaya damage:
      140+60

      Damage expected with "propper" damage gain through negative armor:
      (140+60) * (1 + (1-0.94^(-((2.96 + ((14+(25*1.55)+20)/7)) + (-5 - 6 -6 -16))))) = 340.698033
      http://goo.gl/Kxa95

      Damage expected with implemented damage gain through negative armor:
      (140+60) * 1.54 = 308
      http://goo.gl/8UukC

      Damage dealed according to log:
      [22:36.45] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 310 damage (8771->8461).
      [22:37.22] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 310 damage (8469->8159).
      [22:37.85] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 309 damage (8164->7855).
      [22:38.42] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 310 damage (7861->7551).
      [22:39.12] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 312 damage (7559->7247).
      [22:39.75] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 304 damage (7252->6948).
      [22:40.42] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 307 damage (6956->6649).
      [22:41.05] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 307 damage (6654->6347).
      [22:41.68] Templar Assassin hits Ogre Magi for 313 damage (6353->6040).

      On a side note and not sure if this is a bug, intentional and how it is with this in dota1:
      If using desolator the debuf actually is applied before the projectiles hit the target! This means the first attack already has the additional damage. Same for the meld debuff.
      Last edited by unkie; 07-20-2012, 01:36 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Attached a screenshot of ogremagis statsboard.
        I also did some testing on dota1. There it is 340 dmg / 71% dmg gain.
        Attached Files
        Last edited by unkie; 07-20-2012, 11:18 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Can anyone please change this to confirmed? Also should be added to the sticky imho.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by unkie
            On a side note and not sure if this is a bug, intentional and how it is with this in dota1:
            If using desolator the debuf actually is applied before the projectiles hit the target! This means the first attack already has the additional damage. Same for the meld debuff.
            Almost 100% positive this was actually even fixed in WC3, and was either bugfixed once or an intended change in DotA 2.

            OT:
            This seems like a mechanics bug - and the argument should not be on whether there should/shouldn't be a cap, but whether the -20 cap should factor in base armor (level 1 armor) or not.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well if the cap is based on the level 1 armor it is different on each hero, making the game unnatrual hard because you have to consider the base armor (not the real level 1 armor, the armor at level 1 if you dont have any agility!) of your enemies if you want to work with -armor rather than with +damage!

              Comment


              • #8
                k, adding to sticky.
                just to be sure, can you quickly list the heroes, that still have false armor values?
                Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

                Contributions i'd like to highlight:
                My Suggestion: Coaching System
                My Sticky: Intended Changes List
                My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well I at first thought it might be related to the base armor of the hero but it seems not to. For all heroes I tested I had the same wrong offset regarding the +dmg through negative armor, and they all have different base armor (except for Axe and Anti-Mage).
                  From the looks (see attachment) there is no cap for negative armor. (also dazzles ultimate stacks! )
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by unkie; 07-23-2012, 01:39 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Damage Amplification from -armor is uncapped and Algorithm may be wrong.

                    I would still care for a WC3 test of this, but this involves dota 2 mostly.

                    It seems that the -20 armor & -71% damage amplification that was hardcoded in dota 1, Doesn't exist in dota 2. Not only is it visual, its also real it seems.
                    Additionally, it seems that the (1-0.94^n) may be off by a bit.

                    All taken from the post in the Brainstorming section.

                    Originally posted by Synth View Post
                    Huh. Always remembered it being +25% damage... Testing this now, and this possibly warrants a bug, since slardar with some massive -armor items, along with a dazzle, could destroy even PL with high armor exceedingly fast. Also going to see what the max damage amplification by unnatural means is, since the HIGHEST possible by one team alone is <-80.

                    Ok, here it is.

                    Damage with 8% resistance

                    Damage with 38% resistance

                    Maximum Amplification, about -800 armor, -97%. I've been hitting at about this point from now on.

                    Hit w/o MoM at -97% resistance

                    and then with.


                    Using D*Crit*amp*MoM amp, which is 1926*4*1.97*1.3, and substituting/giving when needed.

                    8% resist(.92 amplification)=7087.68 Very close to what is seen. No issues there.
                    38% resist(.62 amplification)=4776.48 Also extremely close
                    -97% resistance(1.97 amp)=15176.88 just under the 15220 seen.
                    -97% resist with MoM amp=19729.944 also just under the amount seen.

                    I think the damage amplification from -armor doesn't exist, nor is the exponential calculation of it correct.
                    Post of the helpful person who also corrected my math and stumbled upon the possibility of the algorithm being wrong

                    Originally posted by Wyn-Ryder View Post
                    Try doing it with less variables? Also MoM is 1.3 times, not 1.25 times. Perhaps without the MoM active for one trial, to see if that's causing the issues or it is indeed just the armour calc?

                    I did a few tests on MoM before and found that the only bug with it was with Dispersion (and perhaps other pseudo-evasions) where it wasn't multiplied correctly, as in this thread.

                    Alright. Actually figured it out, there's no cap on armour, and if you use 1.95 * 1.3 * 4 = 10.14 modifier, so that equals 19530 damage, perhaps just rounding + hero damage fluctuating leading to it being slightly different.

                    The bug is: Hero -armour is not capped.

                    EDIT:

                    also I have no idea why it's "capping" at 94% increased damage (1 - 0.94^n) where n is the absolute value of your negative armour... It should be at +100% damage at -315 armour... Perhaps negative armour is calculated incorrectly? Probably worth an investigation.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I noticed this as well but the thought occurred to me that it may be intentional. Stopping the minus/negative armor at 20 seems odd.
                      I will mercilessly add to my ignore list anyone that makes an incredibly annoying signature.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [Confirmed] Negative Armor [armour] is calculated incorrectly

                        Summary:

                        Negative armour seems to be amplifying by an amount that is too small in dota 2 (and on a sidenote it is uncapped).

                        Repro steps:

                        1) Create any enemy hero
                        2) Pick/create slardar
                        3) cast amplify damage on an enemy hero and look at their damage resistance in the UI

                        Result:

                        It is higher in dota 1 (unless the cap is reached, in which case it may get closer)

                        for most noticeable differences get a low armour hero (i.e. doom or something like that)

                        I am in the process of calculating exactly what equation it uses, but it isn't 1-0.94^x (where x is the absolute value of the negative armour value)

                        [THIS IS NOT JUST A UI ISSUE, I HAVE CHECKED THE DAMAGE AMOUNTS TOO!]

                        And props where they are due: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=73775
                        Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well this will teach me for not refreshing my list before posting :/ Oops. http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=73890
                          Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            added to sticky.
                            Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

                            Contributions i'd like to highlight:
                            My Suggestion: Coaching System
                            My Sticky: Intended Changes List
                            My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Synth View Post
                              (1-0.94^n)
                              It uses the formula for the positive armors instead; takes the negative armor as if it was positive, grabs the result, and then negates it...
                              Example;

                              + X armor ends up with A% damage reduction?
                              - X armor ends up with A% damage amplification.

                              Looks intended, though... I mean, it seems more consistent to my eyes. Probably was something impossible to do on W3 engine, that IceFrog always wanted to change all the time. Positive and negative armor values are acting the same, just on the opposite directions. The armor-amplification/reduction graph is point-symmetrical. What else do we want?
                              +1 for intended change...



                              Edit
                              Srsly guys... Srsly...
                              https://www.desmos.com/calculator/q4nl5foly9
                              pls.


                              If you still did not understand, let me word it out. I was kidding, of course. And this should be fixed like every other thing, including the two third of the whole intended fix list, and maybe even more of it.
                              Last edited by ThoAppelsin; 02-15-2013, 04:05 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X