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[Confirmed] Some Neutrals Should Not Spawn with Mana & Cast rules

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  • [Confirmed] Some Neutrals Should Not Spawn with Mana & Cast rules

    The formatting for this post was sort of ugly and I tried to fix it.

    1. Some neutrals should spawn with zero mana. Dominate, Enchant, and Holy Persuasion have functions in their code that fully restore mana to Charmed creeps.

    Creeps that should spawn with zero mana but currently spawn with full:
    • Harpy Storm (Harpy Stormcrafter)
    • Ogre Magi (Ogre Frostmage)
    • Satyr Trickster (Satyr Banisher)
    • Satyr Soulstealer (Satyr Mindstealer)

    Creeps that should spawn with 145 mana but currently spawn with full:
    • Dark Troll Warlord (Dark Troll Summoner) (This is 5 less than the 150 manacost of Ensnare.)


    Explanations:
    The reason for this is that if these creeps spawned with mana, they would use their skills according to their default Wc3 rules:
    • Chain Lightning: Aggroed, Off-Cooldown, Aggroing unit is within their own attack range of another Neutral.
    • Ensnare: Aggroed, on new hostile units that enter vision (so that they only have to fight one at a time).
    • Frost Armor: Off cooldown, on allies (other neutrals) taking damage.
    • Mana Burn: Off cooldown, on targets that have more than 50 mana.
    • Purge: Aggroed, when hostile unit aggros another Neutral.


    Other Neutrals that have mana spawn with full mana as they are intended to either use their spells (Centaur Khan, Polar Furbolg Ursa Warrior, Satyr Hellcaller, Thunder Lizard (Big)), have no usable spells (Blue Dragonspawn Overseer, Blue Dragonspawn Sorcerer (ironically), Emerald Golem, Jungle Stalker, Rock Golem, Thunder Lizard (Small)), or don't have default Warcraft III behavior for their spells (Enraged Wildkin).

    2. Additional cast behavior notes (based on my own tests and things submitted in thread).

    General
    If the rules are achieved at least once, they appear to attempt to spam the spell, even if the rules are broken.

    Frenzy (Thunder Lizard (Big))
    Frenzy current rules: Whenever this unit (and only this unit) is damaged, start spamming Frenzy as often as possible as soon as possible off cooldown, even after aggro is lost.
    Frenzy rules in DotA 1: Whenever any nearby Neutral unit is damaged, attempt to cast Frenzy once. If it's on cooldown, fail to cast and do not attempt again until trigger is met.

    Frost Attack (Ghost)
    Autocasting behavior wrong in Dota 2 (it's not autocasting). Ghosts should also spawn with 15 less base damage, and their Frost Attack should add 15 damage to their attacks (same type in one instance a la Searing Arrows; Doombringer does not inherit this version).

    Heal (Forest Troll High Priest)
    The autocasting is wrong in general; that should be fixed first in my opinion. Other than that it seems to be pretty right.

    Raise Dead (Dark Troll Warlord)
    Cast when corpses are available and off cooldown while in combat. Autocast should be off by default (if autocast is on, cast when corpses available and off cooldown regardless of combat). In Dota 2, it appears to only cast whenever the aggroing unit is within a certain range (somewhere between 300-400ish).

    Shockwave (Satyr Hellcaller)
    Blatantly wrong in Dota 2, but I can't find a consistent set of rules for its casting in DotA 1. My findings are below.

    Shockwave DotA 1 behavior:
    Definitely required:
    - Aggroed, 3+ hostile units nearby within a fairly close radius. Aims directly at unit currently drawing its autoattacks.
    Probably required:
    - Cast one and only once every time it changes targets due to aggro (or it loses and regains aggro). If it is on cooldown when this happens, then that unit receives no Shockwaves at all unless it is reacquired.
    Maybe required:
    - Prefers to use a wonky detector to try to aim at more units at a time? I've managed to get it to throw Shockwaves that only hit one unit (no dodging), but it's rather rare.

    Shockwave Dota 2 behavior:
    - The Hellcaller spams Shockwave at every opportunity at the nearest unit if at least three non-neutral Heroes are within effect range (really really far) regardless of aggro. It will not make any attempt to hit the most number of units.


    Slam (Roshan)
    Appears to be the same as Thunder Clap below, except:
    - You need to repeatedly "prove your hostility."
    - Spells blocked by Spell Shield count.
    - Spells that do not target Roshan don't count.

    Slam (Thunder Lizard (Big))
    Same as Thunder Clap below, including the "demonstrating hostility" part. Dota 2's current behavior requires 4+ units, while it should be 3. Otherwise its current behavior appears identical to Thunder Clap.

    Tornado (Enraged Wildkin)
    Does not cast at all, correct.

    Thunder Clap (Polar Furbolg Ursa Warrior)
    Cast off cooldown when 3+ enemies nearby and aggroed. Interestingly, it seems that at least one of the three units has to "demonstrate" that it is hostile for Thunder Clap to trigger (the Warrior will still attack, but will not cast spells until the enemy proves that they are hostile). The Warrior starts Clapping if one of the three units does an autoattack or casts a spell that is considered "offensive" onto any Neutral (Buffs don't count, but damaging spells and non-damaging hardcoded debuffs appear to count. AoEs must hit a Neutral. Don't know about others.). This behavior will reset if the Warrior is deaggroed even momentarily or less than 3+ units remain. Mostly correct in Dota 2 (it doesn't wait for a unit to prove its danger).

    War Stomp (Centaur Khan)
    Same as Thunder Clap above, including the "demonstrating hostility" part.
    Last edited by imxtrabored; 01-31-2014, 12:01 PM.

  • #2
    added to sticky.
    not the mana issue primarily but the spell usage rules.
    Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

    Contributions i'd like to highlight:
    My Suggestion: Coaching System
    My Sticky: Intended Changes List
    My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

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    • #3
      Okay then, the purge rule is incorrect
      where do you find such information xtrabored... they seem to detailed and accurate, are you reading them from somewhere or telling them through experience

      Anyway, I don't really know what's going inside for this case, but those saytrs with purge cast purge whenever possible, meaning that whenever there is a valid enemy target, the skill is off cooldown and the unit has sufficient mana
      Ensnare seems correct, but I still wonder how you could know that

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      • #4
        This purge was annoying in D1 when you passed those Satyrs you directly got their spell on you. Not to mention that it was really hard to pull those creeps when being melee
        „Die Kinder von heute kennen kein Vaterunser, dafür aber Deinemudder.“

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        • #5
          Honourable mention, roshan should have a mana pool but does not. Makes it harder to rosh with AM.
          Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Wyn-Ryder View Post
            Honourable mention, roshan should have a mana pool but does not. Makes it harder to rosh with AM.
            It was a change it D1

            Changelog 6.75b
            * Roshan no longer has mana nor requires mana for his spells
            „Die Kinder von heute kennen kein Vaterunser, dafür aber Deinemudder.“

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            • #7
              If the neutrals aren't using their skills, does it make a difference whether they spawn with / without mana? Honest question.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by DarkLite View Post
                If the neutrals aren't using their skills, does it make a difference whether they spawn with / without mana? Honest question.
                Yes. It slightly changes the balance of diffusal and heroes with mana burn. AM can jungle slightly more easily if all neuts have full mana.

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                • #9
                  Neutral casting rules are accurate because I tested them and detailed because I'm long-winded. A Google search turns up this link, however, which looks cool.

                  I was wrong on purge, but ThoAppelsin doesn't appear to be completely correct either. The little Satyr seems to Purge you whenever you aggro a neutral not already aggressive.

                  Also: casting rules for Shockwave are totally wrong in Dota 2.

                  In DotA 1 it appears to be:
                  3 hostiles nearby.
                  The Satyr Hellcaller himself must be aggroed by all three of them (so it doesn't count if only his family is aggroed)
                  // There has to exist at least one Shockwave from one position that will hit all three units maybe?
                  It will never move into an optimal position just to cast Shockwave however.
                  It will attempt to hit as many units as possible.
                  // Even when it "can" hit all three, it appears the AI will sometimes only hit two.
                  I can't get it to hit only one though.
                  Surrounds will never work; at least two units must be in an approximate line.
                  Even when two units are in a line, he will not always fire down that line.
                  Even with all of these factors, it will not "always" cast Shockwave. The unit grouping, clustering, general standing positions affect how "often" it is cast. Some orientations of units seem to elicit more Shockwaves than others. I can't get him to cast Shockwave off cooldown.

                  Actually, he seems to always aim at the unit he is currently attacking, offset to hit as many as he can.

                  Conditions preceeded by two slashes are ones which I don't think are correct anymore or are obsolete but kept for posterity.

                  Actually, simplifying my conclusions: casting rules for Shockwave appear to be if it can aim directly at the unit it is currently attacking and hit at least two out of three units. The "logical range" of the Shockwave appears to be smaller and narrower than the "real range". It appears to recheck this only whenever it switches targets??

                  In Dota 2 it almost definitely is:
                  The Hellcaller spams Shockwave at every opportunity at the nearest unit if at least three non-neutral units are within effect range (really really far) regardless of aggro. It will not attempt to hit the most number of units.

                  Mana Burn is cast when an aggroing unit has more than 50 mana.

                  I think neutrals spawning with no mana is more of an issue, seeing as how I can't think of a way to give these neutrals mana so they would actually cast their spells in a legitimate game.

                  I'll update the OP after I mess around a bit more.
                  Last edited by imxtrabored; 04-29-2013, 09:17 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eskimo View Post
                    Yes. It slightly changes the balance of diffusal and heroes with mana burn. AM can jungle slightly more easily if all neuts have full mana.
                    Interesting. Also, is it possible in WC3 to change the casting rules of the neutrals? Wondering whether the no-mana might have been a workaround in Dota 1.
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                    • #11
                      Possible, but this is the easiest work-around. Changing the base spell to Acnl or another spell without casting behaviors works. The super-advanced solution is to write your own neutral AI.

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                      • #12
                        Casting rules for Ensnare are:
                        Dark Troll Warlord is already attacking a unit.
                        Another non-neutral unit comes into vision; that unit will be Ensnared.
                        Dark Troll Warlord will never re-ensnare a unit unless it leaves vision and returns.

                        Casting rules for Chain Lightning are:
                        Harpy Storm is aggroed
                        A non-neutral unit is within attack range of a neutral (their attack range, meaning melee units must be in melee range next to any neutral for Chain Lightning to occur).
                        Spammed on cooldown if these conditions occur.
                        Last edited by imxtrabored; 04-29-2013, 09:47 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Updated OP with much more stuff.

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                          • #14
                            It would also make medusa's mystic snake less useful in the jungle if it weren't bugged anyway.
                            Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

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                            • #15
                              Power Cogs will harm them more aswell cause of their maxed mana pool
                              „Die Kinder von heute kennen kein Vaterunser, dafür aber Deinemudder.“

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