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[Confirmed] PRD Chance Not Incrementing While On Cooldown

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  • [Confirmed] PRD Chance Not Incrementing While On Cooldown

    Edit2: I felt this needs to be added to the OP for clarity.

    PRD: There's one important note about how PRD worked in DotA 1 such that I believe PRD incrementing while Entangling Claws is on cooldown should NOT be ported to Dota 2. The only benefit of adding PRD should be normalizing the attacks made outside of PRD.


    Explanation (This is the information hinted at in the "Please skim this whole thread" edited request): I reported this bug on the Dev Forums myself, early in May of last year. I and many like me then had na´vely thought that PRD simply incremented normally while the linked abilities were on cooldown (letting you save a "proc charge" by attacking madly while Entangle cools down). A few months since then, ThoAppelsin conducted a series of investigations that shed more light on the baffling system used in Warcraft III. In short, he discovered that PRD only displays this behavior when the attack chain is unbroken. That is, if a skilled Lone Druid player cancels their backswings, then they do not benefit from this, yet an unskilled Lone Druid player (playing against unskilled opponents who stand still and attempt to manfight the Druid player) will Entangle immediately off cooldown. Breaking the attack chain will cause the subsequent attacks to behave (mostly) correctly. The longwise explanation of this investigation is in that linked thread by Wyn-Ryder at the bottom of the first page of the Dev Forum thread.


    Edit: Please read (or at least skim) the whole thread, there's some more information and partial corrections further down. Entangling Claws does not currently use PRD in Dota 2 (incorrect) so the OP is somewhat moot.

    The random chance for a pseudo-random distribution effect should increment if the condition is made while the effect is on cooldown. For instance, take Entangling Claws:
    • Proccing Entangling Claws resets the proc probability.
    • Each attack Spirit Bear has a 5.570% greater chance to proc Entangling Claws than the last attack.
    • If Entangling Claws is on cooldown, the 5.570% chance should still be increasing while it cools down.
    • In Dota 2, the chance does not increase.

    Repro:
    1. Spawn Lone Druid and level him appropriately.
    2. Use your favorite combination of items and auras to get him to max attack speed (Beastmaster, Assault, etc. DO NOT use Mjollnir as its Chain Lightning will ruin the demonstration. Do not build more than one Assault Cuirass on the Bear as the bonus attack speed aura does not stack so it's worse than a Hyperstone.).
    3. Spawn a Centaur and use your favorite combination of items to make him as tanky as you can get (Hint: Armor goes a lot longer way after a certain number of hp.).

    • The Bear can fail a maximum of 17 attacks before Entangling Claws must proc.
    • The cooldown on Entangling Claws allows the Spirit Bear at max attack speed to squeeze in just over 17 attacks.


    Using this setup, in DotA 1, Entangling Claws is never off cooldown as when it is available, it is immediately applied. In Dota 2, you will find that Entangling Claws is occasionally on cooldown for a noticeable amount of time. This indicates that the Entangling Claws probability does not increment during its cooldown.

    Entangling Claws being incorrect indicates that other skills that use PRD with a cooldown are likely similarly incorrect.

    Extra note: Can someone list the skills and items that use PRD in Dota 2? The reason is some of these may need to use the current broken system to keep the probabilities consistent with DotA 1. I'll explain further later if this is an issue.
    Last edited by imxtrabored; 03-14-2014, 11:55 AM.

  • #2
    Hey there, just wanted to clear up this up so people who read this post are not confused like I was. The +35 attack speed from assault cuirass will stack with other assault cuirass. The +as aura and the +/- armor auras will not stack.

    Comment


    • #3
      Heheh, whops. You'll lose attack speed relative to the hyperstone, though, so it's just not worth doing.

      Corrected.

      Comment


      • #4
        added to sticky.
        Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

        Contributions i'd like to highlight:
        My Suggestion: Coaching System
        My Sticky: Intended Changes List
        My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

        Comment


        • #5
          Entangling claws doesn't even have PRD yet. So I would say it's not a bug (until they implement it) I made a thread about this on brainstorming.
          Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

          Comment


          • #6
            ...Wait, really? Arugh.

            What are the spells that use PRD?

            Comment


            • #7
              http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Pseudo...s_that_use_PRD

              For once dota 2 wiki's actually helpful :P

              Of course it SHOULD use PRD. It just doesn't.
              Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

              Comment


              • #8
                - Pseudo Random chances are now enabled for these abilities: Coup de Grace, Slardar's Bash, Time Lock, Drunken Brawler's Crit, Headshot, Blade Dance, Chaos Knight's Crit, Lycan's Crit and Skeleton King's Crit.
                - Troll Warlord: Added Pseudo Random support for his Bash.
                - Added Pseudo Random chances for the following items: Daedalus, Crystalys, Abyssal Blade, Basher, Heaven's Halbred, Maelstrom, Mjollnir, Static Charge, Monkey King Bar, Poor Man's Shield, Sange, Sange and Yasha, Stout Shield, Vanguard.
                I think that's all of the updates.

                And then beat by a few seconds, go figure

                Comment


                • #9
                  Did not use PRD in DotA 1 but now use PRD in Dota 2:
                  • Triggered Bash (Cranium Basher, Abyssal Blade)
                  • Lesser and Greater Maim (Sange, Heaven's Halberd, Sange and Yasha)
                  • Static Charge (Mjollnir) (???)


                  Uses PRD in DotA 1 but doesn't in Dota 2:
                  • Pulverize (Flaming Fists, Pulverize)
                  • Entangling Claws


                  Uses PRD in either Dota 1 or Dota 2 with a probability that caused an actual error of >1% using constant values from DotA 1:
                  • Blade Dance
                  • Headshot
                  • Flaming Fists
                  • Damage Block (Stout Shield, Poor Man's Shield, Vanguard)
                  • Mini-Bash (Monkey King Bar)


                  Could have real probability issues due to not using PRD issues in DotA 1 but using PRD in Dota 2:
                  • Triggered Bash (Skull Basher, Abyssal Blade)
                  • Static Charge (Mjollnir) (???)

                  The cooldown coupled with the change to a PRD system with unknown behavior means the long-term bashes/shocks may not work out to the correct probability, depending on attack rate.

                  Things that would be REALLY nice to know, preferably from a Valve Dev:
                  What are the constant values used in Dota 2's PRD? Do they use the same flawed values from DotA 1 or has Valve recomputed them to be accurate?
                  While we're at it, is PRD intended to be implemented for as many applicable random systems as possible? Greater Bash, Counter Helix, etc.?

                  Things that need testing in Dota 2, maybe after I do more math stuff:
                  • Triggered Bash (Skull Basher, Abyssal Blade)
                  • Static Charge (Mjollnir) (???)

                  In DotA 1, Cranium Basher worked out so that 25% of attacks made when Bash is off cooldown procced Bash. Static Charge worked out so that 20% of all damage taken while recoil shock is off cooldown procced Forked Lightning. This is incompatible with the correct PRD implementation. The preceding statement is very probably true.

                  Listed on Dota 2 Wiki but not in the update notes relayed by Weiner: Pierce (Javelin)

                  Unrelated: Does Static Charge actually use Forked Lightning in Dota 2? I swear it might use Chain Lightning. Also, if the damage source has marker (as from a ward or a spell from a dummy), the recoil Forked Lightning targets the oldest unit within 900 range of the damage source (literally the unit that has existed the longest, which would be a hero). Also, Static Charge should only recoil on heroes or units with Marker. In fact, has anyone done much testing on Static Charge at all, now that I think about it??
                  Last edited by imxtrabored; 05-20-2013, 11:28 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There's actually a bit of work been done on this recently. PRD incrementing while it's on cooldown is kind of iffy - if you backswing cancel it'll cause it to be able to trigger etc... Check http://www.playdota.com/forums/showt...?t=7993&page=5 for some more info (and earlier pages).
                    Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I did see that; was very interesting (I already lurk A-M). This report is moot anyways since Entangling Claws doesn't even have PRD in Dota 2 anyways.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So, should this have been taken of the list or was it ever proven to actually use PRD?

                        I thought it did not but since this thread popped up(http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=106926), it led me to search up this thread and it seems that blash put it on the list.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I can say it is 99% likely there is no PRD for Entangling Claws.

                          Ive done testing, and the number of attacks the bear makes while Entangle is on Cooldown doesnt affect the next proc, nor do any number of attacks while its off cd as well.

                          My highest no-proc streak was above 25 in these tests.

                          I did these test because it seemed in game that the more attack speed i have, the less chance i have to proc entangle per hit. Its not conclusive but it is interesting.

                          Out of ~120 Entangle procs total per scenario:
                          0 IAS: 4.66 avg hits to proc, highest 17 hits without proc occuring
                          125 IAS (rabid/hyperstone/midas): 5.3 avg hits-to-proc, high 25+

                          I woulda kept going if the creeps werent pushing so damn hard (another issue i think should really be looked at. Worst RNG is when creeps push in an even fight)

                          So it looks a bit like more IAS slightly reduced entangle chance, but I'm sure as you approach infinite the chance will always be 20%, no Pseudo Random. Im glad too, else LD would be picked before Batrider every game.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Your chance "lowers" because you get more hits in during the time when it's on cd.
                            If you think I've closed or deleted a post unjustified, feel free to PM me and I'll explain it to you/discuss it with you further.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kryil- View Post
                              Your chance "lowers" because you get more hits in during the time when it's on cd.
                              wrong

                              The chance after it is out of cooldown should higher because hitting while it is under the cd should count as "fail" and increase the "success"chance.

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