[Discussion] Damage Amplification and Reduction

[BUGREPORTER]

The point of dota 2 (in my opinion) was to simplify things a little. This current interaction actually makes things much more complicated and introduces a variety of bugs.

I think so too !

[winxp]

The general case: In dota 2, lifesteal will be calculated after all amplifications and reductions, period. In wc3, the raw amount of lifesteal will be calculated after all hardcoded amplifications and reductions but before triggered ones. The only effect triggers have on lifesteal in wc3 is with overkill situations.

[Nettle]

So Flesh Golem isn't really berserk-based but actually does the same thing despite it being triggered?

What if, for example, timbersaw hits (with lvl1 timberchain: 100 pure damage) undying (lvl 3 flesh golem on + MoM + blademail activated), how much damage shall be dealt to timbersaw in wc3 dota and how much in d2?

[Wyn-Ryder]

The point of dota 2 (in my opinion) was to simplify things a little. This current interaction actually makes things much more complicated and introduces a variety of bugs.

[Stinkepete]

More importantly, it's nearly impossible to remember and determine on the fly. In DotA 1, as long as you knew whether a skill was triggered or hardcoded (which admittedly wasn't always obvious), you knew essentially how it behaved, and the calculation was straightforward. In DotA 2, it's all mixed up and entirely arbitrary, with five different brackets and a nonsensical Lifesteal interaction. All I can conclude is that nobody ever explained the mechanics of the game to Valve and they either were not able to figure them out or did not care to. They also don't seem to care at all if their mechanics are consistent or understandable.

DotA is ultimately a game of numbers, but to Valve it is just a game where you fuck around because they assume nobody actually cares.

i dont know man, dont jump on the blame-train too fast. surely they could have tried harder in the attempt to copy wc3 to 100%, but i think valve made an engine for dota 2 that works in its own way and of course its more complex than wc3, so it will have more complicated interactions.

[EebstertheGreat]

More importantly, it's nearly impossible to remember and determine on the fly. In DotA 1, as long as you knew whether a skill was triggered or hardcoded (which admittedly wasn't always obvious), you knew essentially how it behaved, and the calculation was straightforward. In DotA 2, it's all mixed up and entirely arbitrary, with five different brackets and a nonsensical Lifesteal interaction. All I can conclude is that nobody ever explained the mechanics of the game to Valve and they either were not able to figure them out or did not care to. They also don't seem to care at all if their mechanics are consistent or understandable.

DotA is ultimately a game of numbers, but to Valve it is just a game where you fuck around because they assume nobody actually cares.

[winxp]

What I don't like is the interaction with lifesteal. It makes sense in a way that if you aren't doing damage then you shouldn't lifesteal, but what about the case of borrowed time?

This kind of stuff is also a nerf to pugna who really doesn't need it. It also makes refraction stronger for no real reason.

[Wyn-Ryder]

I thought it was about time that something like this was actually documented. I’ll include a brief description of each category in this topic. I will not be discussing armour & attack damage thoroughly in this thread, unless requested to do so.

Pseudo-evasions:

Currently all pseudo-evasions effectively reduce damage taken by the target. This affects many things differently from dota 1, including: Lifesteal, Blademail, Heart & Consumable deactivation.

List of abilities (In Dota 2):

• Abaddon’s Aphotic Shield
• Abaddon’s Borrowed Time
• Bristleback’s Bristleback
• Dazzle’s Shallow Grave*
• Faceless Void’s Backtrack
• Kunkka’s Ghost Ship rum
• Lanaya’s Refraction
• Nyx Assassin’s Spiked Carapace
• Spectre’s Dispersion
• Treant Protector’s Living Armor (armour)
• Wisp’s Overload

Windrunner’s Focus Fire**

*This behaves somewhat differently to some of the others in Dota 2, it doesn’t allow you to lifesteal more, but spectre’s dispersion and Bristleback will still proc and deal damage from it. You can also reflect blademail damage from it.

**Reduced prior to damage block etc. in dota 2. I.e. calculated in damage output, rather than reduction/amplification.

Differences:

They do not all stack by simple addition in dota 2. Instead it’s by using different levels of brackets… I will attempt to demonstrate this at the end, when I show the different damage calculation brackets & an exhaustive (well, hopefully exhaustive. Let’s see how much I miss) list of what is included in each.

Lifesteal is blocked in the case of backtrack, refraction and borrowed time. Lifesteal is reduced by the % damage blocked otherwise, ex. With Bristleback you will only lifesteal 60% of normal when attacking his rear, assuming Bristleback (skill) is level 4. Blademail (with the exception of shallow grave) behaves in exactly the same way as lifesteal.

WC3 Hardcoded:

Berserk based skills, Mask of Madness (Active) and Slardar’s Sprint. Amplifications by these increase all lifesteal, blademail reflection and all sources of damage.

Illusion damage taken modifier, this factor increases all damage taken by illusions by the relevant amount (from +500% damage [Naga’s Mirror Image lvl 1] to no extra damage [Morphling’s Replicate]). Illusions may not have their life stolen by usual means, but this increases life stolen from Naix’s Feast and Open Wounds. They cannot reflect damage by any means, so this is not an issue.

Mana shield reduces damage in a hardcoded way, however doesn’t reduce the amount lifestolen. It does, however, reduce the amount of damage reflected back upon the attacker through things like blademail.

Differences:

Berserk based skills amplify damage in a different bracket. Berserk based skills stack.

Illusion damage modifiers are calculated in a different bracket to where they should be.

Mana shield: behaves exactly the same as a pseudo-evasion (but consuming mana based on damage taken). So you lifesteal only half against it, and also Ursa’s Fury Swipes and Sand King’s Caustic Finale do not pierce mana shield.

Triggered Damage Amplification:

These create a separate damage instance which is triggered whenever a unit takes damage.

List of Abilities:

• Chen’s Penitence
• Medusa’s Stone Gaze
• Shadow Demon’s Soul Catcher
• Undying’s Flesh Golem

Differences:

In Dota 2 they cannot reflect off eachother, causing increased amplification. Undying’s Flesh Golem does not cause a secondary damage instance (matters for refraction, living armour etc.).
They are calculated using a different order.

Damage Calculation Order:

Now here’s a fun one. This is all empirical, due to the closed nature of dota 2. But from thorough testing this is the latest that I have found:
These are calculated in the order shown (important for Kunkka’s Rum, dispersion, bristleback):

1 small note on the attack damage calculation side, Focus Fire is included, hence it will not be included below.

Damage output calculation: (will elaborate on upon request)

Raw + stat + bonus damage^
Windrunner’s Focus Fire

^No bonus damage for illusions

Damage in-take calculation: (will elaborate on upon request)

Damage block / Pipe barrier
Armour / Magic Resist

Damage / Amplification calculation brackets:

Calculation Bracket #1 (Most 100% reductions and Mana Shield) – None of these skills can occur with any other, so addition etc. is not considered.

Medusa’s Mana Shield
Lanaya’s Refraction
Faceless Void’s Backtrack
Nyx Assassin’s Spiked Carapace

Calculation Bracket #2

Spectre’s Dispersion
Wisp’s Overload
Illusion Damage Modifier
Mask of Madness
Slardar’s Sprint
Bristleback’s Bristleback
Undying’s Flesh Golem

Calculation Bracket #3 – The items in this list do not interact AT ALL. They are listed in order of preference. If shield breaks the next level down will apply.

Abaddon’s Borrowed Time
Aphotic Shield
Kunkka’s Rum
Treant Protector’s Living Armour

Calculation Bracket #4 – this loops back through the damage calculation, but excludes bracket #4 on its second iteration.

Chen’s Penitence
Medusa’s Stone Gaze
Shadow Demon’s Soul Catcher

Calculation Bracket #5

Dazzle’s Shallow Grave

Example:

Here’s a short example on a damage amplification / reduction calculation:

Medusa has the following applied to her:

Mana Shield (50% reduc, bracket 1)
Level 4 Overload (20% reduction, bracket 2)
Mask of Madness (30% amplification, bracket 2)
Level 3 Flesh Golem (30% amplification, bracket 2)
Level 4 Aphotic Shield (200 damage block, bracket 3)
Level 4 Soul Catcher (50% damage amplification, bracket 4)

Say she receives 1000 pure damage. This is how it would be calculated:

1000 * (1 – 0.5) = 500 Bracket 1
500 * (1 – 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.3) = 700 Bracket 2
700 – 200 = 500 Bracket 3
Medusa receives 500 damage BEFORE soul catcher.

Soul catcher:
500 * 0.5 = 250 Bracket 4
250 * 0.5 = 125 Bracket 1
125 * (1 – 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.3) = 175 Bracket 2

Aphotic shield has already burst & therefore isn’t checked again.

Total damage received is 675.