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-20 armor is still the hard cap

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  • -20 armor is still the hard cap

    In WC3, there is a hard cap on negative armor at -20, or 71% increased physical damage. This was completely hardcoded, no way to change it.

    Dota2 seems to adhere to this hard limit, despite its ability to ignore it altogether. Should it? Should we discourage extreme -armor tactics (Lanaya+Slardar can easily bring people below -20 armor together in a competitive game) with an arbitrary hard-cap?

  • #2
    For the current version of Dota, 6.73, part of it is balanced taking into account that there is a limit on negative armor. I have no problem with the cap being removed in the future, but it would likely need some changes to balance, as then stacking negative armor would likely be too powerful then.

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    • #3
      Negative armor is more expensive than positive armor, so I doubt there are significant balance issues involved when any such tactic can be countered with just 1400 gold (to a good degree anyway).

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      • #4
        Weave from Dazzle is up to -20, add on slardar, vengeful and you have a 0 cost ~-40 armor.

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        • #5
          Tested on DotA 1 the cap is non-existent

          Comment


          • #6
            Imho the -armor cap is needed since if u take 100% more damage from every attack cause your enemy gives u -40armor in every team fight its like having a double damage rune on every enemy hero.. But on the other side of the coin it can still provide some cool new strats and not just the same old boring picks ;D

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            • #7
              Originally posted by xXQuatchiXx View Post
              Tested on DotA 1 the cap is non-existent
              "Negative armor has a cap of -20 (71% damage increase). Reducing the armor even more will not change the damage increase."

              from playdota. Don't post things if you have no idea what you are talking about.

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              • #8
                Well, same goes for MS cap 522. It was hardcoded and no way to change it.

                What about we touch these too? Instead of max MS, skills that give max MS should give Flat MS. You can balance everything around that too. It would be as hard to reach 522 as it is currently, but things that could get past should be able.

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                • #9
                  Removing the 522 cap would require a complete rebalancing of every form of MS increase, then every form of Slow, then every starting MS, etc, to keep the current balance in place.
                  Removing the negative armor cap would at most require a re-evaluation of the most extreme armor reduction abilities (Slardar's and Dazzle's ultis), and even that isn't necessarily an immediate requirement.

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                  • #10
                    On Topic: Removing hard caps for the sake of "being able to" seems like pretty dumb logic to me.
                    It's not really hurting anything the way it is.

                    Originally posted by xXQuatchiXx View Post
                    Tested on DotA 1 the cap is non-existent
                    What exactly did you use to "test" your theory? I imagine it had nothing to do with actually launching Warcraft 3.

                    Originally posted by CvP
                    retards don't count as people.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Onin View Post
                      Removing the 522 cap would require a complete rebalancing of every form of MS increase, then every form of Slow, then every starting MS, etc, to keep the current balance in place.
                      Removing the negative armor cap would at most require a re-evaluation of the most extreme armor reduction abilities (Slardar's and Dazzle's ultis), and even that isn't necessarily an immediate requirement.
                      I believe the main reason the cap is there is probably to shy people away from stacking negative armor beyond the point without realizing how weak the effect become.

                      Using the equation on playdota:
                      Damage Increase = 1 - 0.94 ^ (-armor)
                      and the samples given:
                      -5 armor:
                      1 - 0.94 ^ (--5) = 1 - 0.94 ^ 5 = 0.266 = 26.6%
                      -10 armor:
                      1 - 0.94 ^ (--10) = 1 - 0.94 ^ 10 = 0.461 = 46.1%

                      At -5 armor, taking 26.6% more damage, effectively means you have roughly 78% EHP of if you'd only have 0 armor.
                      At -10, this is now 68% EHP
                      At -20 (71% increase) is 58% EHP
                      Going to -30 drops that to about 54% EHP
                      And going a terrifying -100 armor, one would think it'd be enough that hitting the target once will vaporize it, but nope, you're still around 50% EHP at this point.


                      So rather than explaining to the players that unlike positive armor (which adds the same flat amount of EHP with each armor value, thus a linear +X armor = +Y EHP), negative armor value as a graph is a curved shape (one with the slope quickly reaching an almost flat line state...someone who remember his math class can fill me in on that shape) they can just say "we capped it here, so don't bother beyond it"


                      tl;dr: Removing the cap won't cause any "HOLY SHIT IT'S BROKEN!!!!" sort of impact, even if you stack up all the negative armor possible in DotA you'll see maybe 10-15% more damage than with the cap.
                      Last edited by RoflCat; 02-05-2012, 07:02 PM.
                      Every time someone make a false report.
                      Making people's losses feel worse with just my name (don't ask me how it work, I certainly don't)

                      Currently observed Orb(Unique Attack Modifiers), Critical, and Bash interactions for DotA2

                      To:
                      People who cry MM isn't fair: Maybe you're not as great as you make yourself to be.
                      People who wants surrender: It exists, but I'm not teaching you how to do it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mittsies View Post
                        On Topic: Removing hard caps for the sake of "being able to" seems like pretty dumb logic to me.
                        It's not really hurting anything the way it is.


                        What exactly did you use to "test" your theory? I imagine it had nothing to do with actually launching Warcraft 3.
                        Obviously you haven't launched wc3 cause the armor reduction keeps going down, the thing is that the damage taken is not increased

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RoflCat View Post
                          tl;dr: Removing the cap won't cause any "HOLY SHIT IT'S BROKEN!!!!" sort of impact, even if you stack up all the negative armor possible in DotA you'll see maybe 10-15% more damage than with the cap.
                          I don't really see the need to discourage it that way, especially when most people don't even know about there being a cap in the first place.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Onin View Post
                            I don't really see the need to discourage it that way, especially when most people don't even know about there being a cap in the first place.
                            They don't know it, but if there's no cap, they'll see that reduction go a tiny bit higher and think "I can get more!" and try to stack it even further, not considering about the cost to get more of that armor reduction vs the actual benefit.

                            With a cap, they see -71%, and it doesn't go further, they'll assume "oh that's where it stops going" and stop, they might not realize it's a cap at all, but when they don't see the number changing, they'll stop.

                            I've seen some players stacking one and only one stats in some game simply because they want to see bigger number, disregarding everything else.
                            (For DotA comparison, something like a Silencer that get Int and only Int items, no attack speed, no thing to keep him alive longer, then he immediately die in team fight with his low HP)

                            Even if Valve require people to go through tutorial before being allowed to play against players, with a quiz at the end of said tutorial, and that the tutorial also mentions it capping at -20 armor, I can say with 100% certainty that some people will STILL not remember it.
                            Last edited by RoflCat; 02-07-2012, 11:11 AM.
                            Every time someone make a false report.
                            Making people's losses feel worse with just my name (don't ask me how it work, I certainly don't)

                            Currently observed Orb(Unique Attack Modifiers), Critical, and Bash interactions for DotA2

                            To:
                            People who cry MM isn't fair: Maybe you're not as great as you make yourself to be.
                            People who wants surrender: It exists, but I'm not teaching you how to do it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Problem with that theory is that they don't see it. The negative armor number continues dropping, and you're unable to see the damage increase in the tooltips (at least in Dota2 you're currently unable to). In both situations they'll probably realize that they're not really getting as big a damage boost as they expected, which should discourage them.

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