Reaper's Scythe interaction

[DLRevan]

The stun will work, but the damage is magical so it will not damage juggernaut. Most ultimates will still affect magic immune units but not damage them.

The original issue has been answered, so closed.

[BlackJack]

Is reapers scythe supposed to go throug juggernauts q? I did it and did no dmg.

[chukky-jr]

Nothing about reaper's scythe implies that it guarantees a kill

i guess i missed this one, thx for the great feedback guys

[DLRevan]

sheer amount of coding? there is no such sheer amount of coding in that interaction. The one that needed to be rewroten is the Reaper's Scythe damage function, that is all. like i said just check if the Damage is bigger than the target's Max HP, if yes then set the damage to Max HP-1, considering Shallow Grave's the only thing that prevent someone dying. it's just 2 line of work, Shallow Grave buff, and new damage function.

just reminding, IceFrog somehow coded it specifically to interact with Linken, so it is kinda easy to do this too

Whether its easy or difficult to code is relative and we dont really know the reasons why Icefrog did not do this. Thats why I'm more inclined to look at its gameplay implications.

As baloroth mentioned, this concerns an extremely rare scenario. In fact, its so rare, even if you had the right hero and items, it would still be very unlikely this interaction would happen, and thats also why I dont consider this balance discussion.

Nothing about reaper's scythe implies that it guarantees a kill, in fact its often used to stun and damage rather than kill. It at least appears to have some other utility than 'getting kills'. Its different from culling blade, where as long as you meet its requirements, it will definitely kill without any exception, under any circumstances. Even Dota 2 puck's controversial 'avoid all' autocast phaseshift doesnt protect against culling blade. In comparison, Reaper's scythe shouldnt go through shallow grave under any circumstances.

[chukky-jr]

Yes, it could have been fixed in DotA if Icefrog wanted to, but the sheer amount of coding involved in order to fix a fringe exception that occurs in maybe 1 out of a million games (Shallow Grave + Necro + Scepter + magic damage amp + extremely low health hero) simply isn't worth it.

sheer amount of coding? there is no such sheer amount of coding in that interaction. The one that needed to be rewroten is the Reaper's Scythe damage function, that is all. like i said just check if the Damage is bigger than the target's Max HP, if yes then set the damage to Max HP-1, considering Shallow Grave's the only thing that prevent someone dying. it's just 2 line of work, Shallow Grave buff, and new damage function.

just reminding, IceFrog somehow coded it specifically to interact with Linken, so it is kinda easy to do this too

[Baloroth]

just check if that unit has the variable 'Shallow Grave = on', then Reaper's Scythe damage is set to not exceed the target's max HP, it isn't that hard considering the damage count is just entirely triggered (somewhere along Damage=(Max HP-Current HP)*1.1, just set Damage equal to Max HP-1 or whatever if Damage is greater than target's Max HP), hardcoded damage are the ones that become problem (lvl 3 Finger of Death to lvl 1 Heroes are fatal), you don't really need to increase the target HP at all, it isn't that hard to prevent units dying under the Reaper's Scythe (agha)+Ethereal State

still need some feedback, i personally think this is viable strategy, still not account Null Aura, Ancient Rune and Veil of Discord, but then again everything is welcomed

Yes, it could have been fixed in DotA if Icefrog wanted to, but the sheer amount of coding involved in order to fix a fringe exception that occurs in maybe 1 out of a million games (Shallow Grave + Necro + Scepter + magic damage amp + extremely low health hero) simply isn't worth it.

[chukky-jr]

just check if that unit has the variable 'Shallow Grave = on', then Reaper's Scythe damage is set to not exceed the target's max HP, it isn't that hard considering the damage count is just entirely triggered (somewhere along Damage=(Max HP-Current HP)*1.1, just set Damage equal to Max HP-1 or whatever if Damage is greater than target's Max HP), hardcoded damage are the ones that become problem (lvl 3 Finger of Death to lvl 1 Heroes are fatal), you don't really need to increase the target HP at all, it isn't that hard to prevent units dying under the Reaper's Scythe (agha)+Ethereal State

still need some feedback, i personally think this is viable strategy, still not account Null Aura, Ancient Rune and Veil of Discord, but then again everything is welcomed

[SlyGoat]

It was not a huge workaround and it is fixable in DotA.

It wasn't fixable with the way DotA did damage blocking, though. I'm not sure what the code for damage blocking looks like, but I assume it would've been a pain to rework just for this one issue. The most accurate way to prevent all damage is to use an ability that increases a unit's max health by an obscenely large amount temporarily rather than what DotA did which was to heal back the damage (or heal both before and after for some abilities).

[DLRevan]

I don't think you should report it.

Putting aside any possible engine limitations or bad code, reaper's scythe still needs rare certain conditions to kill a unit that has shallow grave, right? Compared to culling blade, which will always kill no matter what, as long as the target is below the threshold, it seems like how scythe is working now is how it was always meant to work.

[chukky-jr]

i'm kinda confused, a little time of thinking proves that the triggered heal itself which is poorly coded (imo), so should report it or not?

[Shamanics]

Don't report it.

The Shallow Grave/Borrowed Time unkillable thing had to be a huge workaround in DotA. It was just logical to make them work as they should.

It was not a huge workaround and it is fixable in DotA.

[bu3ny]

DotA's damage blocking system manipulated current health instead of temporarily increasing a unit's max health which is why it was limited in this way.

Also AFAIK Culling Blade didn't actually remove the Shallow Grave effect because the buff didn't do anything, it was just there to tell you the unit had Shallow Grave. The effect was triggered. So if, for example, you Culled Leoric with Shallow Grave on him, he'd reincarnate and still not be able to drop under 1 HP for the remainder of what would've been Shallow Grave's duration. The more you know.

It removes every status buff, only because of ethereal form from Ghost scepter, Ethereal Blade and Decrepify. Same goes for Ice Blast. Ethereal form prevented the killing blow. Yes, the status buff is only for cosmetics. It used to not have it a couple of versions ago.

[SlyGoat]

DotA's damage blocking system manipulated current health instead of temporarily increasing a unit's max health which is why it was limited in this way.

Also AFAIK Culling Blade didn't actually remove the Shallow Grave effect because the buff didn't do anything, it was just there to tell you the unit had Shallow Grave. The effect was triggered. So if, for example, you Culled Leoric with Shallow Grave on him, he'd reincarnate and still not be able to drop under 1 HP for the remainder of what would've been Shallow Grave's duration. The more you know.

[BLABLAFU]

Don't report it.

The Shallow Grave/Borrowed Time unkillable thing had to be a huge workaround in DotA. It was just logical to make them work as they should.

[chukky-jr]

actually i know it clearly that DotA's interaction is caused by engine limitation, but since you remind me Culling Blade dispell buff first, i take this one as an engine fix then. but difference is still difference, the behaviour still clearly shows difference, should i report it? (actually i lean towards no.. but since there IS a difference...)