DoT bugs

[Digirider]

i dont expect new players to know about it, most vetran players do however..playdota.com virtually the whole "active" community knows about things like these, its more of a theorycrafting perk that makes the game feel better if you can pull it off. it is a wc3 engine limitation i am sure cuz of ladder and such having consumables and balance issues with some races. but icefrog said he wants to port EVERYTHING over making a exact copy, and then make changes from there..tho he has made some changes alrdy.

[lardball]

I don't think you can argue this as a point in favour of new players. Even some, if not most experienced players may not know this interaction exists and you expect a new player to be able to recognize that there are some instances where a non-combat consumable can be used in combat? That seems like a "guide dang it" moment and those are never good for introducing new players to the game.

[Digirider]

its not just blood seeker that would benifit from it, some actually lose to. pudge, venge, BS, bane (not sure). main point is lvl 1 rupture not being salve deterant until is imporant for newbies...he is a strong ganker at all lvls, being able to have the OPTION of healing is good when early game can make or break the meta game.

[blash365]

The guy a few pages back would have guessed wrong, with years of experience he would have died in that situation, thinking he could ult and salve.

And by that he got another experience. experiences are rare and tough, the longer you play.

[samich]

I dont really see the point in this mechanic.

In the case of bloodseeker, yes its very easy to work out on a forum but in the heat of the moment when you get ruptured behind your tower as lycan with ult, it comes down to a guess.
The guy a few pages back would have guessed wrong, with years of experience he would have died in that situation, thinking he could ult and salve.
And really what skill is there in any of that? What vital component of the game does that complexity get you?

I would argue to just change it to, any damage instance done will break salve/bottle. It would get rid of all the confusion and you might even get a slight bloodseeker buff out of it.

[Zasz]

i wasnt questioning your stupidity, my statement was that if you are stupid enough to run inside rupture, it was not directed at you in anyway..i am not so crude.

I am sorry, I got offended for no reason. I misread it. Just ignore that part.

[Digirider]

The damage per instance changes with speed of course. If you are hasted lvl1 would cancel your salve. Also by this logic if you are slowed etc. you might use a bottle charge even if the rupture is level 2 and pull it off. Questioning my stupidity made this even worse for you.

Even if I was wrong I would be wrong even though I played this game for years. And even you, a player who thinks they know enough to make this comment makes this mistake. I hope this is enough proof for everyone to see how inconvenient this mechanic is.



I agree completely.

i wasnt questioning your stupidity, my statement was that if you are stupid enough to run inside rupture, it was not directed at you in anyway..i am not so crude.

[Zasz]

rupture damage in no way changes with movespeed. AT ALL. it scales with distance. your move speed just makes it hurt you "Faster" if your stupid. no matter how fast you are rupture will never stop salve at lvl 1. you could have lycan ulti on and still use salve, rupture will just out damage the healing being done. i believe blink is treated diffrently, or just does to much damage at once.

The damage per instance changes with speed of course. If you are hasted lvl1 would cancel your salve. Also by this logic if you are slowed etc. you might use a bottle charge even if the rupture is level 2 and pull it off. Questioning my stupidity made this even worse for you.

Even if I was wrong I would be wrong even though I played this game for years. And even you, a player who thinks they know enough to make this comment makes this mistake. I hope this is enough proof for everyone to see how inconvenient this mechanic is.

I love using those tricks as much as the next person who is familiar with mechanics, but the damage threshold for cancelling consumables does seem like a relic of the wc3 engine. I mean, why 20? Why cancelled by anything with damage type normal or enhanced?

I agree completely.

[Digirider]

What? Even if what you said was correct, your second line completely contradicts your point in the first line. Going by your example a Lycan moving at 522 will take 20% x 522 = 104.4 damage a second from level 1 rupture, thus cancelling salve. Even the fact that rupture does the checks every 0.25s means a Lycan moving at 522 will take 26.1 damage per 0.25s which still cancels consumables.
Of course moving faster makes you take damage faster. This is BECAUSE it is doing more damage per instance; how else would you take damage faster?

in dota 2 it checks every .1 sec i thought? i may have been mistaken about the it cant under any circumstance, so ill rephrase it.

no normal hero with just boots + base ms can cancel a salve with rupture lvl 1.

I love using those tricks as much as the next person who is familiar with mechanics, but the damage threshold for cancelling consumables does seem like a relic of the wc3 engine. I mean, why 20? Why cancelled by anything with damage type normal or enhanced?

tricks make a game. and the type normal / enhanced are wc3 engine limitations, but i find it adds to the game. main reasons it is also important, the damage types the cancle it under certain circumstances ..are very uncommon types of damage that are dealt in bulk anyway, ie magic being the main. a creep auto attack will cancle a salve, but being able to salve through a dot in cluch situations is lovely..makes you feel great.

[lardball]

rupture damage in no way changes with movespeed. AT ALL. it scales with distance. your move speed just makes it hurt you "Faster" if your stupid. no matter how fast you are rupture will never stop salve at lvl 1. you could have lycan ulti on and still use salve, rupture will just out damage the healing being done. i believe blink is treated diffrently, or just does to much damage at once.

it will always do 20/40/60% of distance. its not hard to figure out. 20 damage every hundred units. (60 damage a sec for a unit with 300 ms. if they move in a straight line)

What? Even if what you said was correct, your second line completely contradicts your point in the first line. Going by your example a Lycan moving at 522 will take 20% x 522 = 104.4 damage a second from level 1 rupture, thus cancelling salve. Even the fact that rupture does the checks every 0.25s means a Lycan moving at 522 will take 26.1 damage per 0.25s which still cancels consumables.
Of course moving faster makes you take damage faster. This is BECAUSE it is doing more damage per instance; how else would you take damage faster?

zasz, as much as your point is valid for new players it takes away from a core aspect of dota which is the underlaying complexity that makes it what it is. pudge being able to use salve while using rot is actually very important ive used salve + rot + ulti to stay alive longer on pudge.

rupture + salve will let you run away while not taking damage (or not as much) its more of a pleasure for advanced players, and if its not in your intrest to learn it, thats fine..but dont take away from the game itself for your lack of intrest in complexity.

I love using those tricks as much as the next person who is familiar with mechanics, but the damage threshold for cancelling consumables does seem like a relic of the wc3 engine. I mean, why 20? Why cancelled by anything with damage type normal or enhanced?

[Digirider]

rupture damage in no way changes with movespeed. AT ALL. it scales with distance. your move speed just makes it hurt you "Faster" if your stupid. no matter how fast you are rupture will never stop salve at lvl 1. you could have lycan ulti on and still use salve, rupture will just out damage the healing being done. i believe blink is treated diffrently, or just does to much damage at once.

it will always do 20/40/60% of distance. its not hard to figure out. 20 damage every hundred units. (60 damage a sec for a unit with 300 ms. if they move in a straight line)

zasz, as much as your point is valid for new players it takes away from a core aspect of dota which is the underlaying complexity that makes it what it is. pudge being able to use salve while using rot is actually very important ive used salve + rot + ulti to stay alive longer on pudge.

rupture + salve will let you run away while not taking damage (or not as much) its more of a pleasure for advanced players, and if its not in your intrest to learn it, thats fine..but dont take away from the game itself for your lack of intrest in complexity.

[Zasz]

yes, and make all heroes share the same stats and have no skills too. that way the game is even more accessable.
and dont forget to add doors to barracks, so you dont get confused, where the creeps come from.

the rule is pretty simple, 20 dmg per tick (before reduction, so no math needed) and the salve/clarity/bottle gets cancelled. very useful if you want to counter a strong such as rupture or rot in early game.

It is definitely not straight forward as rupture damage changes with your movespeed. So you expect a somewhat new player to know the movement speed required to activate a salve under rupture for every level? I am pretty sure it was never intended. Noone went like "oh, let's make rupture lvl1 not cancel salve at certain movement speeds that balances everything out." Very unlikely and overall bad design to have 2-3 spell exceptions to an otherwise simple mechanic. And no, it doesn't really balance anything out. It is quite unnecessary in fact.

And to show how pointless the stats example you gave to be condescending, here is mine: Let's make every spell type do different damage to every hero in the game too (Like cm getting more damage from fire). That way the game would be much more complex and fun and balanced. And don't forget to change if the spell stuns/slows/disarms too, that way it is much harder to access.

[blash365]

yes, and make all heroes share the same stats and have no skills too. that way the game is even more accessable.
and dont forget to add doors to barracks, so you dont get confused, where the creeps come from.

the rule is pretty simple, 20 dmg per tick (before reduction, so no math needed) and the salve/clarity/bottle gets cancelled. very useful if you want to counter a strong such as rupture or rot in early game.

[Zasz]

Too much unnecessary complications and calculations. How is a new player supposed to deduce all of these? Can we just remove the threshold all together and be done with it? You receive damage you lose your salve/bottle regen, end of story. Sounds much more convenient to me.

[Digirider]

yes, but we were talking about 20 dps threshold, not 20 damage per tick, which is surpassed by rot lvl 2. if it was damage per tick, consumables wouldnt be canceled by rot lvl 4 either, since 22 damage get reduced below 20 by hero resistance.

like DLrevan said it calculates "each instance of damage". meaning its not damage per second, damage per second is a unit of measure. like i said rot at lvl 3 does 85 damage a second but in reality does 21.25 damage every .25 sec but that is hard to put in a tooltip. so "per second" is used to simplify things.

in reality it matters how much it does per instance. not per second. if rot did .8 damage per .01 sec then it would still be 80 damage a sec but only be .8 damage and be WAY under cancling a consumable.