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Question regarding attack speeds.

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  • Question regarding attack speeds.

    I am looking for an explanation to this because perhaps I am simply misunderstanding.

    The in-game tool-tip for attack speed shows 100+agility+attack speed from items/buffs. Clearly the 100 is the base "normal" attack speed. At level one every hero should have 100+starting agility.

    Now I noticed that Heroes that possess a lower BAT than the normal 1.7 i.e. Anti-Mage, start with more attack speed than they should, coming from seemingly no-where.

    Anti-Mage - Starts with 22 agility, has 139 attack speed, BAT - 1.45, 17 extra attack speed
    Windrunner - Starts with 17 agility, has 130 attack speed, BAT - 1.5, 13 extra attack speed
    Huskar - Starts with 20 agility, has 126 attack speed, BAT - 1.6, 6 extra attack speed

    This extra attack speed seems to scale with their BAT, even showing up via transformation.

    Alchemist - Starts with 11 agility, has 111 attack speed, BAT - 1.7
    @ level 6 - Has 17 agility, 117 attack speed
    @ level 6 while under the effect of Chemical Rage - Has 17 agility, 134 attack speed, BAT - 1.45, 17 extra speed

    Alchemist's BAT is changed to match Anti-Mage at level 1 Chemical Rage and he then gains the same amount of extra attack speed.

    My question is where is this attack speed coming from and is it supposed to be there?

    If you match the attack speed of a 1.7 BAT hero with Anti-Mage, he still gets more attacks per second as he should(result of a lower BAT), so I just don't understand why they have *extra* attack speed on top of this.

    Sorry if this is the wrong section to post this, I was unsure where to post. Any help is appreciated.

  • #2
    Bump, looking for answers please.

    Comment


    • #3
      OK, so I guess no one wants to fix bugs in this game? Unless someone knows where this extra attack speed is coming from, you are giving an unfair advantage to Heroes with lower BATs.

      Comment


      • #4
        There's only about 4 heroes with better than average BATs. WR, Huskar, AM, Soul Keeper. Pretty much all of them (maybe not AM) can carry if they're fed (or be a fat asset to the team), but they all require a degree of intelligence to play. Like me, for some reason I can play WR/AM decently, but Soul Keeper/Huskar I can only sometimes play right. It could be due to the fact that they're kind of all or nothing heroes. Minus WR, WR has a ridiculous kit and is pretty easy to use at 1.5 BAT. But then again, if you use your skills at the wrong time, you're kinda screwed if your wind run is cd. Soul Keeper's ult, you need to be smart about using that. AM, you need to know when to blink out, when to stay, take into account their heroes, Huskar you have to watch your hp and where you're jumping in...especially early game where your burning spears can widdle your hp down fairly quickly.

        Eh, just throwing idea(s) out there. I don't know the real reason.

        Comment


        • #5
          playdota.com -> advanced mechanics.. You will have your answer
          †André†

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Shiztastic View Post
            Any help is appreciated.
            What help exactly are you looking for? I can only see that you need help understanding there must be no balance talk in these forums...

            Attack speed formula is 1+IAS / BAT. there is no *extra* on top of anything...

            On a entirely different problem, the attack speeds aren't working properly right now and there is a quite elaborate post in the bugs section about it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ValeN View Post
              What help exactly are you looking for? I can only see that you need help understanding there must be no balance talk in these forums...

              Attack speed formula is 1+IAS / BAT. there is no *extra* on top of anything...

              On a entirely different problem, the attack speeds aren't working properly right now and there is a quite elaborate post in the bugs section about it.
              My post has nothing to do with game balance. I know that there is an attack speed problem but that is different from what I am trying to point out.

              And you clearly don't understand what I posted because if you go into the game and look at any character's attack speed that has a BAT less than 1.7, you will see they have EXTRA attack speed that is coming from no where, as in when they are stripped of items and buffs the number is higher than their agility when it should not be.

              If there is a reason for this that has escaped every single forum and wiki that I can find, then please feel free to explain it. Otherwise people that do not understand simple English, don't post.

              Comment


              • #8
                Same game mechanics as in wc3, lower BAT --> Higher AS
                http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/attackspeed
                I'm not sure though what you meant by saying 'coming out of nowhere'.

                Comment


                • #9
                  OP has a point, if you do not understand these mechanics, please do not post on it. Attack speed is a value independent of BAT, and the two values together determine attack cooldown time (or how fast a unit really attacks).

                  Taking OP's numbers as correct, its true there seems to be some kind of problem. For example, even if we assume that 139 attack speed is simply taking into account what AM's equivalent attack speed would be if he had 1.7 BAT, it still gives an incorrect AS cooldown.

                  I am not sure if this is related to the other attack speed bug http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=25102, where the actual attack speed for some heroes (not tooltip value) is wrong. Would appreciate if some others can find out more on this, I'm not too free right now.

                  And moved to Mechanics Brainstorming.
                  Last edited by DLRevan; 04-22-2012, 04:44 AM.
                  Always read and follow the forum rules. If you need help from a moderator, use the report button ()
                  Before posting new bugs:
                  -Check the Known Bugs List and search the forum for an existing report.
                  -Make sure its a bug (test in WC3 Dota, visit playdota guides and adv. mech, etc). If you're still not sure, post in Mechanics and Gameplay Bug Brainstorming instead.
                  -Read the Bug Posting Guidelines on how to report a bug properly.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Shiztastic View Post
                    My post has nothing to do with game balance. I know that there is an attack speed problem but that is different from what I am trying to point out.

                    And you clearly don't understand what I posted because if you go into the game and look at any character's attack speed that has a BAT less than 1.7, you will see they have EXTRA attack speed that is coming from no where, as in when they are stripped of items and buffs the number is higher than their agility when it should not be.

                    If there is a reason for this that has escaped every single forum and wiki that I can find, then please feel free to explain it. Otherwise people that do not understand simple English, don't post.
                    Yea, i had problems understanding your post. Imo, you weren't clear enough on what the problem was.

                    Not going to test but i have a hunch it might be this:

                    Tooltip number in dota 2 is a result of: [1+(IAS/100) / BAT] x 100. In dota it was simply IAS and you had to figure it out wheter lower than normal BAT was in effect or no.

                    It's simple to check, get a hero with 1.7 BAT and AM, for example. Pump him to maximum attack speed. If the number shown in the tooltip is lower than 400 the above is probably the case.
                    Last edited by ValeN; 04-22-2012, 06:10 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ^But still even using those values, it's just not the same result given by the tooltip.

                      I came up with some computation like ([2 + Attack Speed] / BAT) which gave me correct values for the Windrunner and AM attack speed calculations but yielded wrong results on the Huskar case.
                      Anti-Mage - Starts with 22 agility, has 139 attack speed, BAT - 1.45, 17 extra attack speed
                      (2 + 22)/ 1.45 = 16.5++ rounded up to 17

                      Windrunner - Starts with 17 agility, has 130 attack speed, BAT - 1.5, 13 extra attack speed
                      (2 + 17)/ 1.5 = 12.6++ rounded up to 13

                      Huskar - Starts with 20 agility, has 126 attack speed, BAT - 1.6, 6 extra attack speed
                      And here's where it goes wrong:
                      (2 + 20)/ 1.6 = 13.75++ which is more than double than the expected value around 6.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Indeed my original post may have not been clear enough, but it seems that it is being umderstood now and being looked into.

                        Now the formula that Valen posted is N/A to this problem because we are not talking about the Heroes' attack cooldown time. I am specifically talking about the Heroes attack speed which is a value used in said formula for determining a Heroes' attack cooldown.

                        It is this number that my OP is referencing as having being a higher value that it should on Heroes that possess a lower BAT.

                        Attack speed as it reads on the in-game tooltip should be 100+agility when the Hero has no items/skills/buffs to affect it. But any time a Heroes' BAT is lower than 1.7(either by default in the case of Anti-Mage, or through a spell like Alchemist's Chemical Rage) they have attack speed that should not be there(from what I can tell).
                        Last edited by Shiztastic; 04-22-2012, 12:03 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Seeing as the BAT value no longer is present in a visible I understand it as the seconds per attack calculation now using the attack speed value to compensate for that fact. If you do the math you will find that with correct values (22 additional attack speed) Magina will have a 1.19 (1.188524590163934) seconds per attack value, which matches that in DotA 2 completely. This value is achieved through using the WC3 formula for calculating said value, which looks like this;

                          BAT / (1 + AS)

                          Where AS is input as a percentage with 1 attack speed corresponding to 0.01 in the formula.

                          This should answer your question - There are no additional attacks but the value itself is warped to take BAT into accordance through translating it to attack speed.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Robzor View Post
                            Seeing as the BAT value no longer is present in a visible I understand it as the seconds per attack calculation now using the attack speed value to compensate for that fact. If you do the math you will find that with correct values (22 additional attack speed) Magina will have a 1.19 (1.188524590163934) seconds per attack value, which matches that in DotA 2 completely. This value is achieved through using the WC3 formula for calculating said value, which looks like this;

                            BAT / (1 + AS)

                            Where AS is input as a percentage with 1 attack speed corresponding to 0.01 in the formula.

                            This should answer your question - There are no additional attacks but the value itself is warped to take BAT into accordance through translating it to attack speed.
                            The problem is that the game does not function the way you describe it. You are saying that the extra attack speed is to show Anti-Mage's lower BAT, but if you match his attack speed with someone else that has a 1.7 BAT. He still swings faster because he has a lower BAT.
                            Last edited by DLRevan; 04-22-2012, 01:37 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              @zeno

                              Just round it up to get the desired results.

                              They probably changed it with the intention of not having hidden numbers that are needed to take into account, yet this could lead to a problem making people understand why the maximum attack speed is different depending on the hero.

                              Comment

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