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Fan of Knives Bug

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  • Fan of Knives Bug

    (Sources: DotA 2 and DotA testing, and Advanced Mechanics on PlayDotA. link)

    In DotA, there were quite a few skills that were based off of Fan of Knives, having 400 AoE and 0 damage. These includes, but are not limited to;
    - Ring of Basilius
    - Power Treads
    - Magic Stick

    Now you might be asking yourself: "So what? That shouldn't affect anything!". Well. It does. Albeit doing 0 damage, the Fan of Knives would still pull neutral creeps, and since the default acquisition range of neutral creeps are per default 300, and Fan of Knives have 400 AoE, it means you could effectively pull neutral creeps 100 units further away. That's a difference for stacking and pulling, if you're playing as a melee (and to some extend, ranged) hero.

    Example: I am playing Anti-Mage, and I want to stack the Radiant's default pulling spot for bot lane. Neutral creeps have a 300 acquisition range (the range you need to be within, before they start attacking and chasing you), and as you can see in this picture -- I can't pull the camp. I am simply not close enough. However, if I use my Power Treads (400 AoE), I will (should) be able to pull the neutral camp.

    There are other select areas where it may have a notable difference -- especially if you are trying to double/triple stack.

    - - -

    Summary:
    < See Above >

    Repro Steps:
    1. Stand within 400 units of a neutral creep.
    2. Activate Power Treads, or any other FoK-based item/skill with 0 damage.

    Result:
    Neutral creeps won't aggro, and thus renders this method ineffective (useless) for stacking or pulling.

    Expected Result:
    Neutral creeps should aggro.

    - - -

    If this has been officially determined intentional, then I apologize. I was not able to find any answer to this specific topic.
    Bug Brainstorming: I'd say that while this is a "nerf" to some aspects of the game, it could be deemed as a mechanical limitation in the Warcraft III DotA.
    我不講中文|♥ ~
    Kitty Bot ~♥

  • #2
    This is even more usefull when it's night and the neutrals are suppose to sleep, because the 0 damage instance makes them wake up attack you.
    Please, just call me buny.

    Comment


    • #3
      i think they replace this mechanism as the never sleep neutral creeps..
      so you can pull neutral creeps just like daytime

      Comment


      • #4
        Moved to Brainstorming for now.

        TBH, although useful, it is probably one of the most unintuitive mechanics to come out of the WC3 version. My guess is that this is intended.
        Always read and follow the forum rules. If you need help from a moderator, use the report button ()
        Before posting new bugs:
        -Check the Known Bugs List and search the forum for an existing report.
        -Make sure its a bug (test in WC3 Dota, visit playdota guides and adv. mech, etc). If you're still not sure, post in Mechanics and Gameplay Bug Brainstorming instead.
        -Read the Bug Posting Guidelines on how to report a bug properly.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DLRevan View Post
          Moved to Brainstorming for now.

          TBH, although useful, it is probably one of the most unintuitive mechanics to come out of the WC3 version. My guess is that this is intended.

          .. It takes less than a second to change that in DotA1. Just put the AoE of the base spell to 0 or to 1.



          Originally posted by BLANGSAK View Post
          i think they replace this mechanism as the never sleep neutral creeps..
          so you can pull neutral creeps just like daytime
          that's going to get changed, along with neutrals not reacting to damage when the source isn't visible.
          Please, just call me buny.

          Comment


          • #6
            I would like to see this make a comeback, its not something gamebreaking but it does give a good edge if you know how to use it

            Comment


            • #7
              i would +1 every lil skillllike thing in dota every day.

              Comment


              • #8
                +1 from me too, however the current jungle is very buggy and unattended, I'm afraid it will take long before this gets done, if ever.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bu3ny View Post
                  .. It takes less than a second to change that in DotA1. Just put the AoE of the base spell to 0 or to 1.
                  Or change valid targets to none. There's more than one way to avoid it.

                  But it makes little sense, even among a number of Dota 1 mechanics that don't really make sense. I would put this with 'fixes' like Pugna's secondary attack that could have been easily changed in D1.
                  Always read and follow the forum rules. If you need help from a moderator, use the report button ()
                  Before posting new bugs:
                  -Check the Known Bugs List and search the forum for an existing report.
                  -Make sure its a bug (test in WC3 Dota, visit playdota guides and adv. mech, etc). If you're still not sure, post in Mechanics and Gameplay Bug Brainstorming instead.
                  -Read the Bug Posting Guidelines on how to report a bug properly.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yeah this hits me as a "that shit makes no sense at all" change. I don't think Valve will allow things like this that make absolutely no sense. You have to understand, Dota2 is going to be a high quality retail title from a major developer - they have a massive following of people who won't have a DotA background and will not understand why some buggy mechanics exist just because they existed in the original map.

                    Just look at some of the buggy mechanics that were removed from TF2 compared to its original mod counterpart which had a WAY bigger impact on the game than little things like this have on DotA - bunny hopping/strafe jumping for example. If rapidly changing the type of your power treads for some reason gave you +20 movement speed in DotA, it would have a way bigger impact than this little trick does, and I guarantee you it would be removed in Dota2.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DLRevan View Post
                      But it makes little sense, even among a number of Dota 1 mechanics that don't really make sense. I would put this with 'fixes' like Pugna's secondary attack that could have been easily changed in D1.
                      Considering Pugna's secondary attack index as being on the same level as this does however mean that you disregard that the values for his secondary attack index was touched and improved to make attacking during Decrepify more viable whereas the case at hand most likely stems from an initial bad knowledge about which base abilities to use for item abilities with no target which are intended to keep your order queue, Fan of Knives was probably the most well-known one of these abilities and I daresay that's why it was used to begin with.

                      Personally I believe this to be a very awkward mechanic, it's the type that I probably would've brought up on the PlayDotA forums when odd tidbits would be discussed, but it is a mechanics completely without sense (notice the word sense here, it has utility, but sense it makes none - which is an important distinction to make).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Certainly, his secondary attack was clearly intended to synergize with decrepify, but what I mean is it's a mechanic that can be changed at any time in D1, but only removed in dota 2.
                        Always read and follow the forum rules. If you need help from a moderator, use the report button ()
                        Before posting new bugs:
                        -Check the Known Bugs List and search the forum for an existing report.
                        -Make sure its a bug (test in WC3 Dota, visit playdota guides and adv. mech, etc). If you're still not sure, post in Mechanics and Gameplay Bug Brainstorming instead.
                        -Read the Bug Posting Guidelines on how to report a bug properly.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Robzor View Post
                          Personally I believe this to be a very awkward mechanic, it's the type that I probably would've brought up on the PlayDotA forums when odd tidbits would be discussed, but it is a mechanics completely without sense (notice the word sense here, it has utility, but sense it makes none - which is an important distinction to make).
                          For me it makes perfekt sense. You run around in the wood while night. The neutrals enjoying their nap and some asshole is running around fumbling on his items and making noise. The neutrals wake up, they got really pissed and want to tell you politly to stop this shit so they walk up to you and hit you a few times so you understand.

                          Since it was part of DotA it should be ported because for me it looks like this if none from the devs does an opposing statement:carrionbeetleIconfeature.jpg(its a bug with a cape. cool thing huh? its called feature) because it does not hurt anyone at all and is something that can make your moves look more "pro".

                          Edit: i just could not resist but the noise part really makes sense for me ^^
                          Last edited by ohne_caps; 05-06-2012, 04:06 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It's up to the devs I guess (althoug I too think that it's a weird interaction that should not be ported).

                            On the other hand I don't really understand why the FoK AoE was kept at 400 in dota1 and not reduced to something useless like 100.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ohne_caps View Post
                              For me it makes perfekt sense. You run around in the wood while night. The neutrals enjoying their nap and some asshole is running around fumbling on his items and making noise. The neutrals wake up, they got really pissed and want to tell you politly to stop this shit so they walk up to you and hit you a few times so you understand.

                              Since it was part of DotA it should be ported because for me it looks like this if none from the devs does an opposing statement:[ATTACH=CONFIG]6024[/ATTACH](its a bug with a cape. cool thing huh? its called feature) because it does not hurt anyone at all and is something that can make your moves look more "pro".

                              Edit: i just could not resist but the noise part really makes sense for me ^^
                              These type of arguments arn't balance arguments. "making sense" arguments are flavour arguments. It'd be like saying why Zues's Lightning Bolt shouldn't be named Giant Nuke of Shit. These arguments are literally worthless in the sense of balance. These types of arguments were used for the Anti-Mage shouldn't blink into fog because he can't see it in real life.

                              Basically this mechanic is unituitive, hardly anyone knows about it and it won't hurt to remove it.

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