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[Confirmed] Lion Mana Drain Casting time

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  • [Confirmed] Lion Mana Drain Casting time

    It is not a bug but a huge difference to Dota1, making Impale + Mana Drain so much weaker in comparison to Dota1. In Dota1 mana drain had no real cast animation, it kind of started the moment you thew it on your enemy. In Dota2 it has this crappy animation, so it takes quite some time to start.

    So in dota1: Cast Impale, queue mana drain, already start draining mana while enemy is still mid air.
    Dota2: Cast Impale, queue mana drain, drain starts when enemy is back on the floor. So you lose quite some drain time.

    The result: It's much less effective specially on early levels where drain is slow and stun is short. In Dota1 you could really harass mana depending heroes like Tiny in early game. In Dota2 they have a much better time facing a lion.

  • #2
    have you tried doing this without queuing it? just stun and them right away spam mana drain on them.

    I don't know for sure becuase I have never skilled mana drain as lion

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    • #3
      Yeah it's a known issue with queuing, queuing doesn't cancel animations in dota2 so it will always be delayed compared to dota1(at least I believe in dota1 it cancels haven't double checked). I can stun and drain while in the air if I do it manually but not if I queue it(either with shift or by quickly doing impale+click+manadrain+click which autoqueues if you do mana drain before impale has been cast). So not really a Lion bug and more a queue bug if that.

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      • #4
        Thanks for the clarification. Hope it will still be looked into this problem. I have not yet tried with Pugna but should also make him much less effective with Decrepify and Life Drain.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Pyros View Post
          Yeah it's a known issue with queuing, queuing doesn't cancel animations in dota2 so it will always be delayed compared to dota1(at least I believe in dota1 it cancels haven't double checked). I can stun and drain while in the air if I do it manually but not if I queue it(either with shift or by quickly doing impale+click+manadrain+click which autoqueues if you do mana drain before impale has been cast). So not really a Lion bug and more a queue bug if that.
          can you give me a link on that "known issues"?
          it's still missing on the list, imho.
          Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

          Contributions i'd like to highlight:
          My Suggestion: Coaching System
          My Sticky: Intended Changes List
          My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

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          • #6
            Originally posted by blash365 View Post
            can you give me a link on that "known issues"?
            it's still missing on the list, imho.
            Well I say issue but it's interpretation, not sure if it's intended or not. It's been reported a few times for various heroes, I believe the nevermore quick raze issue is because of that too. You could add it if you want but it feels like engine limitation. Basically, ordering a spell while still casting another spell functions the same as queuing it with shift click, and queueing spells in dota2 is slower than manually activating the spells for some reason. That means that in most cases when casting spells in quick succession on heroes that don't have a very low cast point will be slower.

            This is an easy to reproduce issue with Lion as I explained in the previous post.

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            • #7
              Well if you can't find a thread link this one! So the devs can keep track about it!

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              • #8
                in dota 2 queuing spells does not cancel spell backswings. no idea if this is different in dota 1

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                • #9
                  If you queue you have aftercast animation (backswing) if you dont, you can skip it.

                  Its not about reproducing w3, but think about it, every retard can make shift queue, but learning cast time (the split sceond when impale for example is out) and then breaking animation (skill, move, stop, whatever) requires more from player than simple shifting.

                  Its same with rhasta's hex for example, there is alot of aftercast delay that you can skip if you break skill animation, everyone can make hex + trapward in split second with shift, but right now shifting makes it almost impossible (also the fact that ward is ground spell) because it has about 0.5s aftercast. It requires more skill to target spell twice, especially with moving between them.

                  TL;DR

                  Imo it should stay as it is. Requires more skill.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Upon further testing in dota1, it seems to behave weirdly.

                    So I ran a bunch of tests and found that queuing seems to be different wether you're using a ground target or a unit target. It is however similar in the fact that if you cast a spell before the previous one is done casting, it'll autoqueue it, so that's exactly the same and I was wrong on that my bad. Anyway onto the differences.

                    Picked 3 heroes for my test, Lion(.51spell backswing), Lina(1.08spell backswing) and Crystal Maiden(2.4 spell backswing!).

                    When using Lion and doing any combo of 2 spells(impale into mana drain, impale into finger, finger into impale etc) while targetting a specific unit, both spells fire instantly if queued. No backswing there, Lion will finger the target while impale hasn't even hit him yet due to travel time.

                    Then I checked Lina Dragonslave+Lightstrike Array. I tried both ways in case of, but regardless, using shift queue or casting right away resulted in a noticeable delay between the 2spells. However casting the 2nd spell as the first one is just done casting resulted in much faster casting(this is similar to how it works in dota2 on every spell).

                    I finally checked CM because she has a stupid backswing but also because she has both a single target and a ground spell, with Frostbite and Crystal Nova. When shift queuing(or quick casting, same thing as I explained above) Frostbite into Crystal nova, the delay is not skipped and this is very obvious due to her 2.4secs backswing. However when doing the contrary, Crystal nova into frostbite, the delay is instantly cancelled automatically and the spells cast a lot faster, similar to what you can do if you manually clip the backswing animation. For the sake of completion I also tested CM ulti(no targetting involved) and it behave similar to single target, meaning it clips the backswing without having to do it manually.

                    Following this I retested Lion, this time using a hex followed by a ground target impale, and as expected it is slower than doing a hex followed by a targetted impale.

                    So to sum this up:
                    In dota1, casting a spell while still casting another spell will queue the second spell, similar to shift queuing. When done this way, the spellcasting will be slower than manually casting the 2nd spell after the first one has been cast IF using ground targetting abilities. When using no target or clicking on a unit for targetting, then the backswing will be automatically cancelled even if shift queueing/quick casting.

                    In dota2, Shift queueing or Quick casting will never clip the backswing animation on their own, it has to be done manually, regardless of the spells.

                    Wether or not this is intended I let the devs choose, I personally prefer the consistency of dota2.

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                    • #11
                      ^I think that is because most ground targetted aoe spells are based on channel or blizzard in wc3. These are channeling spells by default and so, they don't use backswing animation.

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                      • #12
                        @Isthore: Dotas learning curve is already steep enough! There is no need to make the game even harder than it is already.
                        @Pyros: Wow nice testing, thanks for investing so much time!

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                        • #13
                          As far as im concerned queue should be the fast as possible. And ye, this impale+mana drain is weaker

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                          • #14
                            i'll add this to the sticky.
                            i personally feel, that when using spells and items in quick succession (for example, torrent, ghost ship, lothars, attack order), it will simply skip one of the spells (usually torrent or ghost ship).
                            i never experienced this in wc3 dota. can anybody confirm this? (will try to do myself, but i am out for today)
                            Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

                            Contributions i'd like to highlight:
                            My Suggestion: Coaching System
                            My Sticky: Intended Changes List
                            My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've always thought shift-q was a little buggy (sometimes skipping spells and other times taking a lot more time than it should)

                              The only situation I use it is to order something after TPing like moving, blinking or casting a spell... Except that some heroes are getting afterTP animations so I still don't know how they work. If someone has success in using it in another situation please share

                              Originally posted by Pyros View Post
                              In dota2, Shift queueing or Quick casting will never clip the backswing animation on their own, it has to be done manually, regardless of the spells.
                              So basically it is now useless

                              Simple and obvious things that should get fixed/added asap: SCOREBOARD, Ingame friend list, Different Ping for Roshan, Add Notes to Players, Accept Button while tabbed

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