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[Needs Testing] Templar Assassin is Overpowered in Dota 2

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  • [Needs Testing] Templar Assassin is Overpowered in Dota 2

    TA NEEDS to be consistent with her DotA 1 counterpart. With a skill like refraction, set at pricisely 5 instances, it is highly balance skewering to change that.

    These following issues need to be adressed. Playing against/using Lanya currently is rediculously unfair.

    1) Refraction needs to be a triggered heal or recoded to have the game recognize some sort of damage taken. Since the dagger issue has been fixed, the only things I can think of are consumables (not sure if dispells) and cold snap.
    2) The CASTING animation for refraction needs to be shown to enemies (not the actual force field), just like in dota 1 to give players an idea of when to run, and when to fight.
    3) The refraction buff tooltip must be shown to enemies (but code it without showing how many instances left) like in dota 1.

    The last thing is (although I know this wont be changed, just to point out WHY these nerf/consistencies are needed) that a lot of skills in DotA 2 have their instances of damage combined (such as Gondar's ww used to be 2. Liches Frost Nova on the main target used to be 2... etc.). Just to clarify, I'm not reporting this last thing as a bug; I'm just stating that she has already been indirectly buffed due to this, and all these other changes just make her more powerful than she needs to be.

    Also, meld can be cancelled by Fissure in DotA 1 as well as other displacent skills. I'm not sure how they work exactly in DotA 2, but I can confirm Fissure does not break meld.
    Last edited by Rice; 07-18-2012, 04:24 PM. Reason: Updated with more information and rephrased sections

  • #2
    1. The fact that salves break but Blink is not disabled suggests that this is intentional.


    Either way this thread feels more balance oriented instead of bug oriented.

    Comment


    • #3
      This should really be discussed at Playdota.com, TA is strong against certain lineups, but really weak against others. Heroes that do frequent ticks of damage eat away at her Refraction so fast that it becomes a useless skill. Learn to counter pick, and learn to post in the right forums =)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CK011885 View Post
        This should really be discussed at Playdota.com, TA is strong against certain lineups, but really weak against others. Heroes that do frequent ticks of damage eat away at her Refraction so fast that it becomes a useless skill. Learn to counter pick, and learn to post in the right forums =)
        Just, fail, everywhere.

        These are significant CHANGES for no reason in DotA 2, and are inconsistent with DotA 1. THINGS that are inconsistent with DotA 1 and DotA 2 WHICH CAUSE game balancing issues are BUGS.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Rice View Post
          Just, fail, everywhere.

          These are significant CHANGES for no reason in DotA 2, and are inconsistent with DotA 1. THINGS that are inconsistent with DotA 1 and DotA 2 WHICH CAUSE game balancing issues are BUGS.
          Then please feel free to go reporting everything in the intended fix list. Because y'know, cuz those cause balancing issues as well, be it big or small.
          Every time someone make a false report.
          Making people's losses feel worse with just my name (don't ask me how it work, I certainly don't)

          Currently observed Orb(Unique Attack Modifiers), Critical, and Bash interactions for DotA2

          To:
          People who cry MM isn't fair: Maybe you're not as great as you make yourself to be.
          People who wants surrender: It exists, but I'm not teaching you how to do it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Not sure why people are arguing with the OP. Seems like these are significant changes that are absolutely valid to report as bugs. It is frustrating that you can't see lanaya's refraction buff and I was wondering if it had been like that in dota 1.

            Comment


            • #7
              I will answer in the quote.

              Originally posted by Rice View Post
              TA NEEDS to be consistent with her DotA 1 counterpart. With a skill like refraction, set at pricisely 5 instances, it is highly balance skewering to change that.

              Consistent to a point and that point is the limitation of using that old game engine / tools etc and with that you can say some of the changes are intended. Also 6 Instances (playdota has a mistake in there page there).


              1) Refraction NEEDS to be a triggered heal (or have the game recognize some sort of damage taken). This is crucial for skills such as cold snap (doesnt do anything to her) and the ability to use blink dagger even when attacked.

              There it is, because in WC3 you had to have it coded like that.. here you have no need for such thing, here it can work as intended in the first place and yes it is a buff from that previous limited version.


              2) The CASTING animation for refraction needs to be shown to enemies (not the actual field), just like in dota 1

              Ok let's show an animation for the refraction start, but can we please remove the strong pink color glowing hands for the enemies that stay there and show it *hey I have half of the spell on me so maybe I got the refraction on still ye ?*


              3) The refraction buff tooltip MUST be shown to enemies (but code it without showing how many instances left) like in dota 1

              Ok show the tool tip there, but how about the "force field impact" that happens when you take of 1 instance of refraction ? In Dota 1 you never saw that.
              And again this is linked to the solid color of her hands.. no self respecting player will trow huge spells at her in that point without checking to see if protection is still up.
              You think it's that easier to click on her and check to see if the "tool tip" is there and it's so broken omg buff to actually send 1 normal attack at her ?



              The last thing is (although I know this wont be changed, just to point out WHY these nerf/consistencies are needed) that a lot of skills in dota 2 have their instances of damage combined (such as gondar's ww used to be 2, liches frost nova on first target used to be 2.. etc)

              I think some of those damage instances where again limited by the wc3 world and some where simply better converted into 1 damage source in Dota 2, it's not like we got 50 refraction similar type of skills around here and this are major things that brake the game play completely.


              Also, meld needs to be cancelled by es's fissure, lion's inpale, sand kings burrowstrike, as well as the upcoming nyx assassin's stun since those skills displaced you.

              Here maybe you do have a proper debate so go for it and make it right.


              All in all TA is new to this Dota 2 world / gameplay / style / metagame etc etc so just relax give it some time and you will see she has plenty of situations when shes counter quite well.. veno / viper / husrak spears, bat rider, ogre magi, lesharac, rot, ion shell, warlock heal, doom aoe flames, acid spray, rocket barrage, furion trees, spiderlings and other sommons, meteor, manta illusions, necro 3, radiance / general dot, and people adjusting and understanding her better. (oh and she rly hates ghost scepter)

              Is she strong ? Heck yea, so are other heroes .. but is she game breaking ? Don't think so.
              Last edited by Bogdan_X; 07-18-2012, 12:53 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                If you think TA is OP then Lycan and Ursa would like to have a word with you. Also, I'm pretty sure Meld doesn't dispel with stuns in DotA 1. I could be wrong though.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The thing with engine limitations is that in wc3 dota, the limitations, or the way it was coded, made things balanced for certain skills.
                  For example refraction being a triggered heal - in wc3 I interpreted refraction as "you will still be marked as receiving damage, but it will not damage you" - hence disabling blink for the 3 seconds, but taking no damage. (The hero icon in the top left will flicker red)

                  In dota 2, popping refraction followed by meld almost guarantees a getaway. If you get damaged by AOE attacks (like qop's scream, death prophet's wave), refraction charges will not make you marked as hit, making a blink getaway much easier.

                  Another situation I can think of is:

                  Viper is being chased by TA. he slows her, but starts to back off because he realises he cannot win the fight. His ally, an out-of-mana Zues, tries to save him by autoattacking, but Zues' attack animation sucks too much to tear through the refraction charges. It's okay, because Viper is almost safe inside his base, but then TA blinks in front of Viper and finishes her job - because blink dagger was not disabled.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rice View Post
                    Also, meld needs to be cancelled by es's fissure, lion's inpale, sand kings burrowstrike, as well as the upcoming nyx assassin's stun since those skills displaced you.

                    Unconfirmed for torrent and toss
                    from all spells you listed, only fissure and toss cancels melt. Fissure cancels meld ONLY when it was used so TA was moved (if you cast near ta, only damage and stun will apply), same for tiny, only when you throw TA to other place.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      it's rice from dotalicious, hey mate.

                      ot:
                      discussion intended changes is ok, especially when they are new, since there might be unforseen repercussions.
                      in this case, i think the community has cut its own flesh by "buffing" tas refraction animation on the testclient with demanding the animation to be more subtle to enemies.

                      imho the changes to the refraction mechanic make sense and should be addressed with a small nerf by giving her the test client animation back. (this should fix 2. and 3.)

                      the interaction addressed in 1. will be changed in the next patch.

                      could somebody please list all disables, that disabled meld in wc3 dota and list their dota 2 behaviour (cancels/doesnt cancel) along with them.
                      Last edited by blash365; 07-18-2012, 02:50 AM.
                      Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

                      Contributions i'd like to highlight:
                      My Suggestion: Coaching System
                      My Sticky: Intended Changes List
                      My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Meld wasn't cancelled by stuns on Dota 1. Only if ES hit her right, but none of the other stuns (and Tiny's spells), made her visible, same goes for Kunkkas torrent.
                        Last edited by diamant; 07-18-2012, 02:36 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          False report

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rice View Post
                            TA NEEDS to be consistent with her DotA 1 counterpart. With a skill like refraction, set at pricisely 5 instances, it is highly balance skewering to change that.

                            These following issues MUST be adressed. Playing against/using Lanya currently is rediculously unfair.

                            1) Refraction NEEDS to be a triggered heal (or have the game recognize some sort of damage taken). This is crucial for skills such as cold snap (doesnt do anything to her) and the ability to use blink dagger even when attacked.

                            Description of blink dagger:[I]Teleport to a target point up to 1200 units away. If damage is taken from an enemy hero, Blink Dagger cannot be used for 3 seconds.[/I] Since TA's refraction COMPLETELY blocks damage taken, why should blink dagger be disabled? Had the ability description of blink dagger be "If the user is attacked by an enemy hero", then and only then, would your case be valid.

                            2) The CASTING animation for refraction needs to be shown to enemies (not the actual field), just like in dota 1

                            Refraction already shows a mild pinkish aura around her when the protection is up and when the damage-increasing ability is still active, her hands glow even brighter and have a larger area. surely this is idiot-proof enough for even new players by telling them "stay away, I'm badass for now". besides, the casting animation for TA in dota was the same as her attack animation. pros and high-tier players all have the ability to manipulate animation changes, therefore good TA players could enable refraction without being detected.

                            3) The refraction buff tooltip MUST be shown to enemies (but code it without showing how many instances left) like in dota 1

                            For this I have nothing, because this is the only point in your argument that I agree with.

                            The last thing is (although I know this wont be changed, just to point out WHY these nerf/consistencies are needed) that a lot of skills in dota 2 have their instances of damage combined (such as gondar's ww used to be 2, liches frost nova on first target used to be 2.. etc)
                            Why even bother bringing it up if you know it won't be changed? The shoddy and last-decade programming of the wc3 engine greatly limited Icefrog's intended usage and executions of spells. in dota, critical strikes were calculated with this formula:
                            [regular attack damage] + [critical damage - regular attack damage] = [critical damage]
                            as of now, dota2, regular hits are regular hits and critcal is just a huge chunk of damage by itself, no formulas.
                            The new engine allows greater room for balancing and improvement, if you have anything against it I suggest you return to dota.

                            Also, meld needs to be cancelled by es's fissure, lion's inpale, sand kings burrowstrike, as well as the upcoming nyx assassin's stun since those skills displaced you.

                            Regarding Meld,
                            Meld is an special instance of windwalk, that being said, displacement inducing spells will NOT break Meld. The only reason why ES's fissure in dota broke Meld was because of the width of fissure occupying the space TA was on, making her MOVE a few units to the sides. Because of the coding for Meld in wc3, which states that Meld is an instance of windwalk but will break on MOVEMENT of TA, Meld will break. therefore contrary to popular belief, stuns DO NOT break Meld because windwalks dont break on stun.

                            I believe in dota2 there is a proper category for spells which induce movement and displacement. examples of movement inducing spells are probably spells like Axe's Berserker Call and displacement inducing spells are generally every other spell that stuns.


                            Unconfirmed for torrent and toss
                            Now that I've given my two cents on everything in your post,
                            you keep emphasizing on the words "MUST" and "NEED". do you really know the weight of such words? has the full community spoken and asked you to be their messenger to call for changes? An opinion is an opinion and a need is a need. because of the words you used in this post, it just feels like a whine and rant post of somebody who lost a chain of matches against TAs and decided to complain about the "overpowered-ness" of a perfectly decent hero.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by diamant View Post
                              Meld wasn't cancelled by stuns on Dota 1. Only if ES hit her right, but none of the other stuns (and Tiny's spells), made her visible, same goes for Kunkkas torrent.
                              Actually the way the spell was coded was that any movement/displacement would cancel her meld.

                              That meant the air-time for impale spells would remove it as well as the small movement caused by the impassable fissure.


                              I also know my mechanics very well, so I already knew it was based on windwalk. There's a reason why IceFrog made it based on being displaced, and not when a move command is triggered by a player.

                              As for blink dagger... your argument is invalid because it is flawed. Your argument is that "it makes sense" when it skewers balancing greatly.


                              I'm a decent player, I can gaurentee you that. I'm not crying like some noob when I say something is imbalanced. It's due to porting isues. I've had my fair shar of top live games as well as being in the highest skill tier on DLG when I still played dota 1. As for chain losing? naw, didn't happen. I use words like NEED and MUST because it is a need and a must. These are not small changes to the game (such as void backtrack working when he has full hp), they are changes that, if applied to any other hero, would have your frustration as well. Let's make rupture not have a visual effect, or remove the casting visual effect on epicentre. If I told you that, you would definately say "NO, those are NEEDED in order for the hero to remain balanced."
                              Last edited by Rice; 07-18-2012, 08:06 AM.

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