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Doom has incorrect armor (-2%, not 0%)

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  • Doom has incorrect armor (-2%, not 0%)

    Alright. Last time I posted this, I was simply told that DotA 1 doesn't display -2% in the armor tooltip, unlike DotA 2. I did not question it, until now -- which has proven to me, that there is most certainly an armor difference.

    This is a picture of the DotA 2 combat log, showing that although my damage is 99-101, I am hitting for up to 103 damage (fits perfectly with the extra 2% damage), on the 0 armor Doom. Here you can see that Doom with 0 armor, is actually at -2%, which increases the physical damage he takes by 2%. However, through testing in DotA 1, I am able to determine that the value is definitely off. As you can see here, the damage range is matching, and the decimals are actually proving that he is taking exact damage, and not a tiny bit less, or more. You can also hover over his armor, and see that it does indeed say 0%, not -2%.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Norroar; 07-29-2012, 01:52 PM. Reason: missed image
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  • #2
    no thoughts. i knew many armor values are wrong, and they are reported, doombringer is just one of them...just give valve some time to fix them? (well, it has been months... so i guess valve time u know...)

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    • #3
      does wc3 dota print the damage values before or after armor reduction?
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      • #4
        After. If I add any armor to the target, they will take odd decimal damage, like 98.4832.

        I didn't try specifically in this scenario, but I will attempt so later.
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        • #5
          can you try to create the "intended" armor value on doom with ring of protection and medallion or smth and see what happens?
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          • #6
            Yeah, sure. I'll fire up WC3 now, give me a couple of minutes.

            Edit: Oh, you meant in DotA 2? I don't know how to set such specific armor values.

            E2: In regards to the previous request. Here is Doom with just 1 armor, but in the same scenario as the previous. You can see all the decimals, due to the reduction.

            E3: Alright, this is what I did to create the intended value. I increased my agility (using branches) from 11, to 14. That gave me 0 armor, with 0% damage reduction. As you may see here, the values are now matching. So apparently the armor is simply 0.4285714286 armor value off (since each point of agility gives 1/7 of an armor point). Here's a picture showing him with 11+3 agility, 0 armor and 0% damage reduction.
            Last edited by Norroar; 07-29-2012, 04:14 PM.
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            • #7
              actually i meant.
              "how would 0-2 armor look like in wc3 dota?"
              sorry for not making that clear.

              btw, how are those popups calculated? does it listen to the hp changes? or does it calculate with the armor value?
              does it maybe use the wrong armor value (the gui value)?
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              • #8
                Well, I am fairly sure that they show the actual damage, after reductions and all. I'll try replicate a scenario where the unit takes 2% extra damage. Not entirely sure if that is feasible, but I'll attempt. Will edit this post with more information on my testing.

                Alright, I am incapable of putting doom at specifically -2% damage reduction, as it can only show specific intervals it seems. And I have no way to reliably make sure that the GUI is absolutely 100% correct. However, I choose to trust it, as it in a very widely used (un)official test map for DotA 1. It might be bugged, I can't deny that, but I do not believe it is.
                Last edited by Norroar; 07-29-2012, 05:21 PM.
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                • #9
                  It seems like in Dota 1 (at least this specific test map, I do not know if there are any differences between it and the official map with this specific issue), only whole negative numbers of armor were counted. I tested this with slark. Afer 4 strikes with essense shift, armor reduction jumped from 0 to -6%. There were no intermediate steps between the 0% reduction and -6% reduction. Both the damage reduction tooltip and damages matched.

                  Edit: Actually, slark could only reduce Doom's agility to 1.
                  Last edited by smokedsalmon; 07-30-2012, 01:39 AM.

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                  • #10
                    That's not related to the test map, that's just how Warcraft III works. ^__^
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                    • #11
                      I am quite interested in this, since I am actually the one who told Norroar that its a Dota 1 limitation. As far as I know, wc3 always pulls the real armor values which are calculated up to 3 decimal places. So there shouldn't be an issue with Doom's negative armor.

                      I'll do some tests of my own in my own time, meanwhile you might find it easier to test with an ability that does fixed physical damage such as Slardar's Slithereen Crush. It does 100 damage at lvl 2, which makes for nice clean numbers to work with.


                      E: Crush lvl 2 does exactly 100 dmg to Doom in Dota 1, but 102 dmg in Dota 2.

                      Adding 1-2 points of AGI to Doom in Dota 1 will add decimals to the armor shown in the GUI, but even then both the shown resistance and actual resistance is still 0%. It seems WC3 handles negative values 'above' -1 quite un-intuitively both in the GUI and actual implementation.

                      I'm inclined to treat this as a wc3 bug though. Simply changing the armor values in Dota 2 wouldn't be correct, as Doom's armor really is -0.42.
                      Last edited by DLRevan; 07-30-2012, 02:57 AM.
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                      • #12
                        How can I derive the armor data for each hero, before agility and base armor modification? I get the impression that Lucifer has -1 armor to start, but due to base armor modification being -1 too, he has -2 before agility. Now because he has 11 starting agility, he gets 1.57143 increased armor. That leaves him at -0.428571 armor, at the start of the game. This is indeed -2% damage reduction, as you have pointed out.

                        Now, I am just puzzled as to why Blizzard would round up the -2% to 0%. I got the impression that the armor used real value, and not integer, thus letting scenarios such as this use the actual -2% damage reduction value, instead of the 0% displayed (I know that the displayed != real value). Why are few heroes (Phoenix, Doom etc.) an exception to this rule? ;__;

                        Also thanks for the tip with Slithereen's Crush. I hadn't even thought of that <3
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                        • #13
                          Sounds like a problem with WC3's mathematical system. Negative armor uses exponents (.94^(-armor)), I'm guessing rather than calculating the actual floating-point value of the exponent, they just use whole number integers (since that is vastly easier mathematically).

                          If you want any of the pure, actual, DotA values, you need to look here: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639324

                          Download that dump, search through "units.txt" for Doombringer (his base armor is the "def=..." entry, def=-1 for him).

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                          • #14
                            Thank you Baloroth. ^_^
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                            • #15
                              in dota 2 Doombringer has -0.46 armor and also Guardian Wisp has -0.04.
                              I think is a bug or what?

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