(Discussion) New orb effect thread

[SlyGoat]

It' not dota 1. We should be able to have all those mechanics limitations eliminated.

It would've been possible to make all orbs stack in Dota1 just by triggering their effects, as was done with Sange when it was considered too weak to be a real orb. Orb effects have gone from being a limitation of the engine to a balancing factor of items, making them all stack completely would have repercussions on item builds. It'd be like removing the mechanics limitation of orbwalking or animation canceling or only autoattacks causing creeps to aggro, all things that could've been changed in Dota1 if it was deemed beneficial to the game.

[okrane]

It would've been possible to make all orbs stack in Dota1 just by triggering their effects, as was done with Sange when it was considered too weak to be a real orb. Orb effects have gone from being a limitation of the engine to a balancing factor of items, making them all stack completely would have repercussions on item builds. It'd be like removing the mechanics limitation of orbwalking or animation canceling or only autoattacks causing creeps to aggro, all things that could've been changed in Dota1 if it was deemed beneficial to the game.

Still, there should be some simplification of what overrides what and the manner in which they stack.
There could also be better graphical indicators of which orb is active and which buff placer is active so that things are clear.

[RoflCat]

Still, there should be some simplification of what overrides what and the manner in which they stack.
There could also be better graphical indicators of which orb is active and which buff placer is active so that things are clear.

Are you referring to DotA1 or 2 with this comment?

The current system is pretty damn simple already (chance/timer proc > permanent one and hero's ability > item)

As for the graphic indicator, they'll probably do something about it, maybe they're figuring out what's the best way to represent each effects (like how they changed magic immunity to the golden spiral we see).

[SlyGoat]

I like how orbs work currently. I even like the fact the fact that maelstrom/mjollnir stack multiplicatively because it's hilarious. But that doesn't mean it's not subject to change or even subject to be returned entirely to how it worked in DotA if it proves problematic.

[okrane]

Are you referring to DotA1 or 2 with this comment?

The current system is pretty damn simple already (chance/timer proc > permanent one and hero's ability > item)

As for the graphic indicator, they'll probably do something about it, maybe they're figuring out what's the best way to represent each effects (like how they changed magic immunity to the golden spiral we see).

Hmm, not really tho.
how about the whole Lifesteal + Skadi thing? I personally don't get it still.

[Seventeenth]

Changes are good, except huge nerf for Clinkz....

[7_ShininGAngel]

Can someone write a guide to the new system? I'm not getting it, really.

[RoflCat]

Can someone write a guide to the new system? I'm not getting it, really.

2 Basic rules:
Chance/CD to proc orb override non-proc orbs when it proc, doesn't do anything otherwise.
Hero orb > item orb.

EDIT: Done, I think.

[shalafi]

Nice thread, you could add other attack effects, just to have all the info gathered.

For example, Naix's feast is now added to your damage, and cleaves/crits/lifesteals, just like Viper works in both games.

Also, MKB true strike works against everything now (buildings, etc) but that probably is outside the purpose of this thread.

[RoflCat]

Which effects do you want me to test?
(Also, after seeing your other thread I went and re-did a bit of testing, some of the bash results have changed so I edited the OP to reflect them...particularly that Slardar/Void's bashes no longer proc on siege units or towers)

EDIT: Can't make private lobby atm, leave anything you want me to test here and I'll get to it when I've got free time between murdering bots.

[SlyGoat]

Crit:
Highest multiplier take priority, end of story. (Yes, it's that simple, hooray)

So just to clarify (because nothing is ever THAT SIMPLE), Chaos Knight's 10% chance of a 3x crit, for example, would override Daedalus' 25% chance of a 2.5x crit entirely? Not just on the attacks where the 10% crit procced?

[RoflCat]

So just to clarify (because nothing is ever THAT SIMPLE), Chaos Knight's 10% chance of a 3x crit, for example, would override Daedalus' 25% chance of a 2.5x crit entirely? Not just on the attacks where the 10% crit procced?

When they both proc, 3x will take effect regardless of order of acquisition (so PA can get Daedalus without worrying about nerfing her own damage now).

I've edited the OP to be a bit more clear.

[greystar_]

thats basically not right, in dota crits stacked like

P(crit) = 1 - (1 - 1st critchance)*(1 - 2nd critchance)*...

several other formulas for the first/second/third gained crits

source:
http://dotawiki.de/index.php/Critical_Strike#Stacking

[shalafi]

Which effects do you want me to test?
(Also, after seeing your other thread I went and re-did a bit of testing, some of the bash results have changed so I edited the OP to reflect them...particularly that Slardar/Void's bashes no longer proc on siege units or towers)

EDIT: Can't make private lobby atm, leave anything you want me to test here and I'll get to it when I've got free time between murdering bots.

Well, considering you already have bashes and orbs effects, you could add non-orb non-bash attack effects (if they cleave, if they heal with lifesteal, if they crit).

The ones I can think of:

Feast
Fury Swipes
Backstab
Shadow Walk (BH)
Shadow Blade
Diffusal Balde
Incapacitating Bite

[SlyGoat]

thats basically not right, in dota crits stacked like

P(crit) = 1 - (1 - 1st critchance)*(1 - 2nd critchance)*...

several other formulas for the first/second/third gained crits

source:
http://dotawiki.de/index.php/Critical_Strike#Stacking

This thread is about the mechanical differences between DotA and Dota2. Not about how crits stacked in DotA.

Well, considering you already have bashes and orbs effects, you could add non-orb non-bash attack effects (if they cleave, if they heal with lifesteal, if they crit).

The ones I can think of:

Feast
Fury Swipes
Backstab
Shadow Walk (BH)
Shadow Blade
Diffusal Balde
Incapacitating Bite

Fury Swipes, Diffusal Blade and Incapacitating Bite are all orbs.