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(Discussion) New orb effect thread

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  • im all for making innate hero abilities like mana break being able to be overridden by standard item orbs (non chance based ones, like lifesteal or styg). once you put only 1 skillpoint into it, you can never revert this at any stage of the game any more while you can still change all other kind of orbs around. imho it would be nice if you could still get orbs(!) like lifesteal or skadi on e.g. anti mage without having to decide against skilling mana burn (remember, its still a game in which being able to do some stuff for fun shouldnt be discouraged).

    maybe it would at least be possible to enable this via slot priority? imho this innate orb thing overriding normal item based non chance orbs is the only point in which the dota 1 orb system was better. in all other cases the new system is nicer imho. apart from this point though.

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    • Originally posted by Thunderbolt View Post
      im all for making innate hero abilities like mana break being able to be overridden by standard item orbs (non chance based ones, like lifesteal or styg). once you put only 1 skillpoint into it, you can never revert this at any stage of the game any more while you can still change all other kind of orbs around. imho it would be nice if you could still get orbs(!) like lifesteal or skadi on e.g. anti mage without having to decide against skilling mana burn (remember, its still a game in which being able to do some stuff for fun shouldnt be discouraged).

      maybe it would at least be possible to enable this via slot priority? imho this innate orb thing overriding normal item based non chance orbs is the only point in which the dota 1 orb system was better. in all other cases the new system is nicer imho. apart from this point though.
      Your point about the dota 1 system being better is simply that certain orb effects would always override certain other orbs, regardless of its source (eg: lifesteal orbs of any kind will overrride any feedback orb, such as manabreak). It didn't give any additional flexibility, when you don't put it into the context of particular heroes like anti-mage.

      Personally, I feel that the new system is better. Rather then having to recall which orbs took priority, its now very simple, with Hero orbs overriding Item orbs (in general). The fact that some heroes have this 'flexibility' taken away is a balance point that I expect Icefrog has already accounted for.
      Always read and follow the forum rules. If you need help from a moderator, use the report button ()
      Before posting new bugs:
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      • Well, thanks for everyone's contribution here, learned a lot from reading this thread.

        But then a lot of poster mentioned about bashes stacking and PRD, but not many of them mentioned about the Sniper's Headshot(HS) with MKB.

        To conclude what I read so far:

        Multiple source of bash stacking (for hero without similar bashing skills, Sniper is a mini-bash heroes) :

        Case: MKB + headshot + skullbasher proc together in one attack

        Damage==> we all know that all damage procs from these items independently proc and stack at same time ==> 100 + 60 + 0 ==> 160 damage from procing them

        Stun Length ==> from what I read in the forum so far, The length ==> 0.01 + 0.4 + 1.4 ==> 1.81 sec in one attack

        Perma-bash or not ==> Unless the stun length of the current bash is passed, otherwise the 2nd attack bash/stun(when proc) wont replace the 1st attack bash/stun, resulting in ending longer stun length prematurely OR extending the stun with similar stun time length.

        Please advise, and correct me if I am wrong.

        Note: this should be pinned along in BASH stacking section

        Thank you.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 3hitKO View Post
          To conclude what I read so far:

          Multiple source of bash stacking (for hero without similar bashing skills, Sniper is a mini-bash heroes) :

          Case: MKB + headshot + skullbasher proc together in one attack

          Damage==> we all know that all damage procs from these items independently proc and stack at same time ==> 100 + 60 + 0 ==> 160 damage from procing them

          Stun Length ==> from what I read in the forum so far, The length ==> 0.01 + 0.4 + 1.4 ==> 1.81 sec in one attack
          The stuns don't add together. The way it worked in WC3 DotA was that the latest acquired stunned if both procced. I believe (I may be wrong) that it's now a case of the longest stun always occurs, so in the scenario you described the target would be stunned for 1.4 seconds (due to basher).

          The WC3 DotA interaction for melee heroes was always that the hero was stunned for the longest duration of all bashes procced. In no case have they ever added together.
          Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

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          • Originally posted by Wyn-Ryder View Post
            The stuns don't add together. The way it worked in WC3 DotA was that the latest acquired stunned if both procced. I believe (I may be wrong) that it's now a case of the longest stun always occurs, so in the scenario you described the target would be stunned for 1.4 seconds (due to basher).

            The WC3 DotA interaction for melee heroes was always that the hero was stunned for the longest duration of all bashes procced. In no case have they ever added together.
            Noted ==> longeest duration of bash always preferred.

            How about the stun effect replace by another sucuessful bash/attack? (minibash replaced by bash, or bash replaced by minibash)

            Current dota2wiki info on these part still a bit too vague, visitor will get a clearer picture, provided with example above.

            Off-topic:

            Tested bash/minibash stacking can be really devastating for sniper in Dota2, where Dota1's bash/mini-bash stacking can be problematic(true strike/latest acquired stun, seriously it limits sniper's potential)

            Hero: Sniper
            Items: Tread, MoM, MKB, Basher(not consider very fat, decent farming)
            VS: a very fat F.Void(Battlefury, butterfly etc.)
            Result: Void only got chances to overwhelm sniper by Chronosphere, if not, by sniper's range will always reach and interrupt FV killing within the sphere. 3 bash stacking + range + life leech can really toe-to-toe with FV.
            Misc: against caster etc, with minibashes + bash, sniper can interrupt caster and decimate them quickly.

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            • He's still not that devastating - if you want to discuss it you should probably open another thread about it.

              As for stuns while the target is stunned - whichever is longest - the remaining duration of the bash or the duration of the newly applied bash will occur. I.e. if you stun with a basher, and your next hit lands 0.5 seconds later and procs level 4 headshot (0.2 seconds) then the basher bash will continue for the rest of its duration (0.9 seconds).

              If you land a headshot when basher's bash has been applied for 1.3 seconds already, the target will be stunned for 0.2 seconds from when the headshot landed (1.3 + 0.2 = 1.5 seconds total, 0.1 seconds longer than just the basher proc).

              Basically the bash effect which finishes last in any instance will be used - but they do NOT add together in any way.
              Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

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              • To correct Wyn-ryder's assertion on Dota 1's bash mechanics, only on ranged heroes will last acquired bash proc. On melee heroes, bashes that proc at the same time stack perfectly: all bashes will deal damage and longest stun is applied.

                His stated Dota 2 mechanics are correct.
                Always read and follow the forum rules. If you need help from a moderator, use the report button ()
                Before posting new bugs:
                -Check the Known Bugs List and search the forum for an existing report.
                -Make sure its a bug (test in WC3 Dota, visit playdota guides and adv. mech, etc). If you're still not sure, post in Mechanics and Gameplay Bug Brainstorming instead.
                -Read the Bug Posting Guidelines on how to report a bug properly.

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                • I'll just use this thread to ask, instead of opening another one. I've used the search function as well as ctrl+f'ed the "intended change" & "known bug" lists, but couldn't find anything. I'd like to have an official statement, as there has been none as of yet, regarding this particular topic: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...ht=shadowblade

                  It's about shadowblade stacking with gondars jinada, which wasn't possible back in classic DotA if I'm not mistaken. So my question is: is this an intended change or a bug?

                  Thanks in advance for the response.

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                  • From test update:
                    Viper: Fixed Nethertoxin damage not being critable

                    I'll test/update the first post when it goes to not-beta-of-beta version.
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                    Currently observed Orb(Unique Attack Modifiers), Critical, and Bash interactions for DotA2

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                    • That Greater Bash - Works on magic immune - no can be changed to yes

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                      • Not sure if this warrants its own thread, but there really needs to be a way to override or otherwise disable a hero orb to allow an item orb to work instead. Either that, or passive item orbs should always override passive ability orbs, since you wouldn't be buying an orb unless you want to use it.
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                        • Originally posted by winxp View Post
                          Not sure if this warrants its own thread, but there really needs to be a way to override or otherwise disable a hero orb to allow an item orb to work instead. Either that, or passive item orbs should always override passive ability orbs, since you wouldn't be buying an orb unless you want to use it.
                          Put point in stats and ignore the skill, voila no hero orb, and you get a nice stat out of it too.

                          Otherwise nope, not right now.
                          Every time someone make a false report.
                          Making people's losses feel worse with just my name (don't ask me how it work, I certainly don't)

                          Currently observed Orb(Unique Attack Modifiers), Critical, and Bash interactions for DotA2

                          To:
                          People who cry MM isn't fair: Maybe you're not as great as you make yourself to be.
                          People who wants surrender: It exists, but I'm not teaching you how to do it.

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                          • Im totally with the guy^^ above. it would be nice if priorities for 2nd and 3rd position (hero orb - first acquired orb) could be swapped around. otherwise, theres no chance to play with alternative or fun builds other than not skilling your own orb at all during the entire game.

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                            • Originally posted by RoflCat View Post
                              Put point in stats and ignore the skill, voila no hero orb, and you get a nice stat out of it too.

                              Otherwise nope, not right now.
                              There are a few situations where that doesn't apply, because you might want to benefit of it's early-mid game usage but get a item orb later. For instance, SandKing and Broodmother.

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                              • Speaking of orbs... would it be that bad to allow orb-switching by sorting your items in the inventory? e.g. if you have a Helm and a Diffusal, the system should use whatever orb comes first in your inventory. IIRC that's how it worked before, right? Now you have to drop the orb you don't want to use and pick it up again.

                                Oh and for newer players: give them a buff icon "Conflicting Orbs" which appears when they're stacking orbs. The icon will warn them they have more than 1 orb active etc. etc. This might be a good idea to teach new players to avoid orb stacking, especially since there are several cases of multiple orbs in recommended builds.
                                Last edited by Radio; 12-11-2012, 05:47 AM.

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