(Discussion) New orb effect thread

[RoflCat]

Here's what I've observed/tested so far for Crit/Bash/Orbs in DotA2. Fairly obvious, but the 3 no longer interfere with each other compare to DotA1.
DISCLAIMER: DotA2 being a beta that it is, sometimes things may change and I don't bother re-test everything each patch, so if something changed and I didn't notice, feel free to tell me about it.


Priority of Orb(Unique Attack Modifiers):
Going from the top down are highest to lowest in priority.

Type	Example
%/CD-based Orb1	Maelstorm, Mjolnir
Hero's skill	Mana Break, Frost Arrow, Searing Arrow
Oldest orb in inventory	Morbid Mask, Desolator
Special exceptions to this rule are Eye of Skadi + a Lifesteal type orb or Searing Arrow, which work together at the same time
1	These only count as orb only on the attack they proc, and will not override other orb otherwise

Crit:
When multiple critical occurs, the highest multiplier take priority, end of story. (Yes, it's that simple, hooray)
Monkey King Bar's Truestrike is no longer a critical in DotA2, feel free to never again discuss whether it 'stack with X'

By request of shalafi, some bonus damage's interaction with crits (Lifesteal will heal you for the final damage):

Source	Can Cleave	Can Crit	Can Lifesteal
Kunkka - Tidebringer	Yes	Yes	Yes
Bounty Hunter - Shadow Walk	No	No	No
Shadowblade - Windwalk	Yes	No	Yes
Viper - Nethertoxin	-	Yes	Yes
Naix - Feast	Yes	Yes	Yes
Diffusal Blade	No	No	No
Antimage - Mana Break	No	No	Yes
Riki - Backstab	No	No	Yes
Ursa - Fury Swipe	No	No	Yes
Chaos Knight - Reality Rift	Yes	Yes	Yes

NOTE: The orb that says Yes on Lifesteal require you to have some way of gaining the lifesteal that's not an orb (Vlad aura, Skeleton King)


Bash:
Multiple bashes add the damage bonus together, regardless of melee or range.
Bashes add to your damage, and thus you can lifesteal from them.

Source	Damage Type	Stun Magic Immune	Hit Siege	Hit Tower	Note
Monkey King Bar	Magic	No	Yes	No	Half damage on siege.
Skullbasher/Abyssal Blade	None	Yes	Yes	No
Faceless Void - Timelock	Magic	Yes	Yes	No	Half damage on siege.
Slardar - Bash	Physical	Yes	No	No
Spirit Breaker - Greater Bash	Magic	Yes	Yes	No	Full damage on Siege units. Count as extra hit (no lifesteal)
Sniper - Headshot	Physical	No	No	No

[drakonis]

skadi in dota 2 is now only a buff placer for melee units, though ranged skadi always worked with lifesteal.

[vrk]

desolator works on weaver, he will still proc geminate attack but it won't be a desolator attack, just a normal one.

[RoflCat]

desolator works on weaver, he will still proc geminate attack but it won't be a desolator attack, just a normal one.

I guess Germinate work similar to Mjolnir then, that it overrides only when it proc.

I'll edit the post to change from Mjol/Mael to any %-based or cooldown-based orb.

[Mech]

Any orb effect that used the "spell orb" item ability in Dota1 is only an orb when it procced. In Dota1, for Mjol/Mael, when it procced it, would cast a chain lightning ability. For Geminate, it procced a dummy ability that didn't do anything except trigger scripts that did something, which wasn't an actual second attack, it just did damage based on your current attack damage. This is the reason why it doesn't proc any orbs or crits or bash or be evaded.

For Drow using Frost arrows never proccing Mjol/Mael is because orb abilities with autocast function had the highest piority. This makes it so that Mjol/Mael never had a chance to proc.

The reason Skadi is exceptions to things is because of War3. I'm under the assumption Blizzard coded the Ice orb ability wrong and never went back to fix it.

Crit and Bash abilities are not orbs. Crit, bash, and evasion were all one ability in War3. You just set the values to be different things. If you didn't want something to stun, you set the duration in the ability to 0. If you didn't want evasion, you set the evasion chance to 0. The one ability had one proc chance, so you couldn't in the same ability make it crit with one percentage, and bash with another percentage. At a certain point in time they decided that having different crit abilities proccing at the same time was overpowered. For example, Skeleton King, with a Daedalus (Burriza in War3 Dota). When Skeleton King crit for 275% damage at the same time as Burriza crit for 250% damage, they would multiply together for a total of 697.5% damage. It was even dumber with say Phantom Assassin with multiple Burriza's, hitting for up to 2500% damage, with just two Burriza's. This was changed. So crit abilities can still crit independently of each other. Adding more crit abilities just means you have a higher chance to critical strike. Two Daedalus means 50% chance to crit. Bash effects used to have no cooldown and could stack. Faceless void with a Skullbasher basically had a high chance of stunlocking you forever. That was changed, a cooldown was added to bash abilities, and they were flagged to not stack with each other.

For heroes that have no orb abilities, the piority of the orb depended on the order of your items. This is mainly true for orbs that didn't use the "spell orb" item ability, and Skadi, because of the aforementioned coding mishap. So if you really wanted you could have Desolator and Diffusal. Once you attack once with Desolator to apply the debuff, you switched Diffusal to first slot in your inventory to proc the mana burn until the Desolator debuff wore off. In practice this generally wasn't practical.

[Chazin]

I dont understand all this calculating and trying out. Dota is very special because of its unique orb effect style regardless if it was because Warcraft III limited it or because icefrog wanted it to be that way. If dota 2 would change the orb effect system to this new style where u can have like 3 effects and weavers geminate attack would still trigger I personally would stop playing and go back to dota 1 immediatly. I know some of u may argue that nothing of value was lost etc bla bla.. Valve and Icefrog both wanted the metagame to stay nearly the same in Dota and Dota 2. Changing the orb effects would break tons of balance and change the game more then many of u might think.

So after all im strongly thinking that the current state of orb stacking is just a bug that is gonna be fixed later. Until then i go rape with my op Milj-Magina

regards Chazin

[BLABLAFU]

Maelstrom/Mjollnir was already one of the least bought orbs. Letting it be strong for some time won't hurt anyone.

Also, please don't continue the balance discussion any further now.

[articfox2009]

can venomancer have orb or venom & his passive? jw if it stacks.

[RoflCat]

can venomancer have orb or venom & his passive? jw if it stacks.

Yes, just beware though that Orb of Venom is considered an Orb in DotA2, instead of only buff placer in DotA1.

[TheWb]

Yes, just beware though that Orb of Venom is considered an Orb in DotA2, instead of only buff placer in DotA1.

Wait, Poison sting is a buff placer, so is OoV, how will they stack? O_o*

Also, from what I understand mael/mj doesn't interact with other orbs, but overrides anything (orbs/buffs/bashes) when it procs?

[RoflCat]

Wait, Poison sting is a buff placer, so is OoV, how will they stack? O_o*

Also, from what I understand mael/mj doesn't interact with other orbs, but overrides anything (orbs/buffs/bashes) when it procs?

Sting is buff placer, OoV is now an orb. DotA2 engine allows more than 1 buff per attack, meaning you can now Sting, Skadi, Lifesteal, Crit, Bash in the same attack.

And no on Mael/Mjol, it only override the orb. You can find similar interaction by using Weaver's Germinate + Crit, you can crit AND fire the extra hit.

[akaHideinlight]

I dont understand all this calculating and trying out. Dota is very special because of its unique orb effect style regardless if it was because Warcraft III limited it or because icefrog wanted it to be that way. If dota 2 would change the orb effect system to this new style where u can have like 3 effects and weavers geminate attack would still trigger I personally would stop playing and go back to dota 1 immediatly. I know some of u may argue that nothing of value was lost etc bla bla.. Valve and Icefrog both wanted the metagame to stay nearly the same in Dota and Dota 2. Changing the orb effects would break tons of balance and change the game more then many of u might think.

So after all im strongly thinking that the current state of orb stacking is just a bug that is gonna be fixed later. Until then i go rape with my op Milj-Magina

regards Chazin

They could always like make the game more consistent/understandable and tweak the balance afterwards.

[TheWb]

By the way, do orbs stack with quelling blade now?

[SlyGoat]

By the way, do orbs stack with quelling blade now?

Everything stacks with Quelling Blade AFAIK. Kunkka can use it, too.

[Mogmiester]

Any orb effect that used the "spell orb" item ability in Dota1 is only an orb when it procced. In Dota1, for Mjol/Mael, when it procced it, would cast a chain lightning ability. For Geminate, it procced a dummy ability that didn't do anything except trigger scripts that did something, which wasn't an actual second attack, it just did damage based on your current attack damage. This is the reason why it doesn't proc any orbs or crits or bash or be evaded.

For Drow using Frost arrows never proccing Mjol/Mael is because orb abilities with autocast function had the highest piority. This makes it so that Mjol/Mael never had a chance to proc.

The reason Skadi is exceptions to things is because of War3. I'm under the assumption Blizzard coded the Ice orb ability wrong and never went back to fix it.

Crit and Bash abilities are not orbs. Crit, bash, and evasion were all one ability in War3. You just set the values to be different things. If you didn't want something to stun, you set the duration in the ability to 0. If you didn't want evasion, you set the evasion chance to 0. The one ability had one proc chance, so you couldn't in the same ability make it crit with one percentage, and bash with another percentage. At a certain point in time they decided that having different crit abilities proccing at the same time was overpowered. For example, Skeleton King, with a Daedalus (Burriza in War3 Dota). When Skeleton King crit for 275% damage at the same time as Burriza crit for 250% damage, they would multiply together for a total of 697.5% damage. It was even dumber with say Phantom Assassin with multiple Burriza's, hitting for up to 2500% damage, with just two Burriza's. This was changed. So crit abilities can still crit independently of each other. Adding more crit abilities just means you have a higher chance to critical strike. Two Daedalus means 50% chance to crit. Bash effects used to have no cooldown and could stack. Faceless void with a Skullbasher basically had a high chance of stunlocking you forever. That was changed, a cooldown was added to bash abilities, and they were flagged to not stack with each other.

For heroes that have no orb abilities, the piority of the orb depended on the order of your items. This is mainly true for orbs that didn't use the "spell orb" item ability, and Skadi, because of the aforementioned coding mishap. So if you really wanted you could have Desolator and Diffusal. Once you attack once with Desolator to apply the debuff, you switched Diffusal to first slot in your inventory to proc the mana burn until the Desolator debuff wore off. In practice this generally wasn't practical.

Almost everything in this post is incorrect -

Orbs are always orbs - if you have mjol/mael, you won't ever burn mana.

Geminate attack is Orb of Slow with searing arrows with 0 damage as the spell that procs - in addition crit and bash with override geminate attack, you can manaburn on the bonus shot and lots of other silly rules (check http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Orb_Effects).

Skadi is not based on orb of slow, but frost breath (range) and orb of frost (melee), hence why it acts differently.

Crit and evasion can be given together in one ability, but bash is a separate ability. A stun duration of 0 means the stun never wears off. I don't ever recall crits stacking, but I could be wrong. In addition, crits can proc at the same time, but the acquired last will override.

Bash abilities do not have a cooldown (basher does). They weren't flagged to not stack, but rather you won't be given the 100% chance to bash ability (or it will be given then removed) if you are void, melee troll, slardar or barathrum or bashed in the last 2 seconds.

Slot order does not effect the priority for most orbs. Check http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Orb_Effects for the rules. In particular your example with diffusal and deso is complete nonsense - you will always place corruption.