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Pudge Hook/Ult Combo

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  • Pudge Hook/Ult Combo

    I know it's been discussed in the "bugs report" forums section, but no one could really confirm what the bug was, just that there's some sort of issue, so I figured I could bring it up in this sub-forum too...

    It seems that I and some (many others) are having difficulty getting Pudge's ult to proc properly. I find myself many times, hooking, starting my rot, and then when the enemy travel is up, hitting R and clicking them, just to find Pudge trying to catch up to them to actually channel the Ult. It's even worse when there's a group of creeps or other heroes fighting close by that it just doesn't seem to initiate the ult properly. I've even tried hooking and hitting the ult and selecting them early so that when the player reaches me, it's already attempting to ult them, but still, a lot of the times, they'll be able to get enough distance that, even if the ult does activate, they're outside of the rot cloud, which makes the pudge combo much less deadly.

    I never played DOTA 1, but from what was posted/stated in the bug thread about this issue, there seems to be a difference between the Pudge's hook/ult interaction in the two games.

    Just thought since no one seemed exactly sure what the cause was, it should be in this forum as well for a little brainstorming.

    Seems to me that maybe Pudge's ult just needs a slightly larger AoE so that when the enemy is hooked, there's no question that if you didn't click exactly on the right spot, that you'll still most likely get Pudge's ult to activate.

  • #2
    That funny, in dota1, when i was playing magina/morph/qop etc..., no pudge did ever hook + ult me, but in dota2 it happened several times, so i was thinking the exact opposite of what you stated.

    Thus, if what you stated is true (and what i notice isn't due to some lag of dota2/me becoming very slow), there's something wrong with hook too, and not only with ult.

    Or, last possible thing i might consider, problem is casting time of several spell (which would serve both your observation and mine, but I think it is the least probable one)
    Last edited by miambox; 10-09-2012, 07:50 AM.

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    • #3
      It seems worse case scenario is when I land a successful hook but am not pointed straight at the enemy. Pudge has to turn to perfectly face the enemy in order for the ult to proc. I can't draw it, because I'm at work, but imagine that Pudge has a very small "cone of vision" in-front of him and this is his 'window' of ult proc zone. If the enemy doesn't fall within this cone, then using the ult will cause Pudge to walk towards/turn in circles until the enemy falls within it.

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      • #4
        I might have an idea, mb hook is hooking target to closely to pudge, thus not being totally in the right angle make pudge need to turn to eat the target. In dota1, it was ultra rare that the hooked target land at no range to pudge, since pudge was always moving a bit after hooking and hook was sending the target at cast location, and not at pudge

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        • #5
          I don't have any DOTA1 experience, but there is another topic on forums that shows the difference between DOTA 1 hook mechanics and DOTA 2. There is definitely a difference, but not having the knowledge to compare the two, it's hard to make a solid statement, all I can say is that I've had missed ults from Pudge if I don't time it out perfectly.

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          • #6
            Are you talking about this thread: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...l=1#post357019 ?

            If so, then the videos above the post I have linked should explain the difference between Dota 2 version and the W3 DotA version. Blash has also stated the reason for the bug clearly:
            Originally posted by blash365 View Post
            ok, so the difference is that wc3 dota pudge is able to dismember units that are being dragged by his hook while his dota 2 counterpart needs to wait til the hook is completed.
            As he said, you could cast your Dismember on the units still being dragged by the Hook. But on Dota 2, the game waits until the Hook is finished to cast the Dismember.

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            • #7
              So basically, in D1, ulting was like shift-queuing in D2? If you could ult during the hook, that obviously kept the enemy from escaping at the end of the hook travel. Do we know if this was intended change or actual bug and that we should be able to hook/ult simultaneously?

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              • #8
                The simple fix for this is to wait until the hook finishes to cast dismember, because if you cast while they're coming towards you you invariably end up turning around as your movement towards them causes them to land BEHIND you.
                Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

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                • #9
                  I've lost so many kills hooking someone into trees with ulti queued only for them to break vision before it's casted and Pudge just sits in place. So many kills..

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                  • #10
                    I think the best fix for this scenario then is to have the target move to Pudge and not the cast point. Makes sense anyway, how could I possibly pull something to a spot that I'm not standing in. Pudge should be the cast point, not some arbitrary coordinate. This will ensure that the target is always ult combo capable if the hook was successful and if the player is reacting properly. It also gives the enemy hero the ability to counter attack easier if Pudge is not paying attention/using skills properly, because if target is actually pulled to Pudge and not a distance away (after movemet), then either Pudge can ult/rot combo or the enemy can possibly stun/run/fight Pudge after hook stun is over.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by deejaybos View Post
                      I think the best fix for this scenario then is to have the target move to Pudge and not the cast point. Makes sense anyway, how could I possibly pull something to a spot that I'm not standing in. Pudge should be the cast point, not some arbitrary coordinate. This will ensure that the target is always ult combo capable if the hook was successful and if the player is reacting properly. It also gives the enemy hero the ability to counter attack easier if Pudge is not paying attention/using skills properly, because if target is actually pulled to Pudge and not a distance away (after movemet), then either Pudge can ult/rot combo or the enemy can possibly stun/run/fight Pudge after hook stun is over.
                      The target DOES move to pudge. It's just that if your velocity vector (movement...) is towards the unit as it's coming to you it will land behind you. In WC3 it landed at the cast point. Think of WISP/Pudge combo, they get dragged to the fountain, at pudge's feet.
                      Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wyn-Ryder View Post
                        The target DOES move to pudge. It's just that if your velocity vector (movement...) is towards the unit as it's coming to you it will land behind you. In WC3 it landed at the cast point. Think of WISP/Pudge combo, they get dragged to the fountain, at pudge's feet.
                        So... then, no, the target DOESN'T move to Pudge... it moves to Pudge at point of hook cast, but if he moves, he's obviously not at cast point anymore. What I'm suggesting is make Pudge the point of cast. So if the point moves, the target will still move to it. Kinda like... if Tinker shoots a rocket at a target, but the target moves, the rocket will curve toward it still. Think of that, but now, instead, Pudge is the target and the hook is shooting the enemy at him. If Pudge moves, the hook (pull only) and enemy on the hook should curve/move toward Pudge.

                        Obviously this is a skill shot hero and in no way am I suggesting that hook launch should curve toward the enemy. No, it should go straight out and come straight back if it misses, but upon successful hook, I think the enemy should have similar behavior to other "target seaking" skills.

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                        • #13
                          To some degree it's using Pudge and not the cast point, no? Obvious example being Test of Faith Hook?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by deejaybos View Post
                            I think the best fix for this scenario then is to have the target move to Pudge and not the cast point. Makes sense anyway, how could I possibly pull something to a spot that I'm not standing in.
                            Do this: Get a rope and tie something (like a pet bottle, or something), go 2 meters away and pull the rope in your direction with all your strength
                            The bottle will land where you pulled or behind you. If you run foward, the bottle won't follow you (unless the rope is short)
                            So, since his hook has chains and he pulls those chains towards him, make sense to go where he pulled it, not where he is.
                            (I don't know if I stated it correctly, but...)


                            I apologize for the little (or big) english mistakes, learn a different language is not easy....
                            I'm fluent in Portuguese and Japanese, btw

                            Hey, you! Yes, you there, american. You're not better than anyone, we're not better than anyone. Stop being a xenophobe and quit using people's nation as an excuse to lose.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lmiyagi View Post
                              Do this: Get a rope and tie something (like a pet bottle, or something), go 2 meters away and pull the rope in your direction with all your strength
                              The bottle will land where you pulled or behind you. If you run foward, the bottle won't follow you (unless the rope is short)
                              So, since his hook has chains and he pulls those chains towards him, make sense to go where he pulled it, not where he is.
                              (I don't know if I stated it correctly, but...)
                              Except the hook is attached to him and has tension applied to it at all times :/ But whatever, logic aside it's dragging the unit ON TOP OF HIM, however if you're moving towards it the game places the unit BEHIND you when it finally lands.
                              Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

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