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Siege Unit Last hitting.

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  • Siege Unit Last hitting.

    In dota 1, it always took 3 towers hits + extra hero/creep attack to kill a siege unit, which meant that it was possible to guarantee a last hit on them. In dota 2, for some reason the siege units will sometimes die to 3 tower attacks, some other times they will die to 3 tower attacks+ hero/creep attack. This is a considerable potential gold loss for carry players since the siege units provide the highest bounty, on early level where you really need to time your hits right because of low base damage.
    I was wondering if this has been changed on purpose, or if its just because towers hit damage has in dota 2 has a bigger range that in dota 1 (say 80-130 instead of 100-120).

  • #2
    why dont you post a combat log to verify your claim?
    Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

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    • #3
      reject

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      • #4
        I dont know how to, tried just now but i dont know quite how to get the combat log to show attacks between towers and siege units, also i dont know if there's a command to spawn siege units which makes this very time consuming. Its pretty self evident though that that's the case if you ask any person who played dota 1 and has played a fair amount of dota 2 games..

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        • #5
          You can reproduce that by:
          1. using the -disablecreepspawn command
          2. and then -createhero badguys_siege enemy while your mouse is pointing somewhere within the Radiant Tier 1 bottom tower
          3. repeating that until you see one catapult dying in 3 hits


          I did that, and it worked. I actually used to experience this in-game, too.

          The thing is, how sure are we that this wasn't happening on W3 DotA at all?
          I also used to suspect the same thing, but now I have checked the values:

          Siege type damage deals x1.5 damage to Fortified type armor.
          The damage range is 100-120.
          So with 3 instances of damage, the total damage range varies between 450-540.
          Catapults have zero armor, so according to my calculations the same thing should be happening on W3 DotA, too.

          And the happens:doesnothappen ratio is 4:5, which isn't that so distinctive.

          So, why am I thinking exactly the same as OP? I also used to think that the catapults wouldn't die with 3 hits from the Tier 1 tower, ever.
          Can there be an additional "mean"izer on damage ranges of Warcraft III?

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          • #6
            I can guarantee with 100% certainty that this is the case in wc3 DotA as I played it for almost 8 years, siege units require 3xT1 tower hits plus an extra creep/hero attack to die EVERY time, there wasn't a random factor at all about this. It was one of the first things I noticed when I made the transfer to DotA2.

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            • #7
              may be it depends on tower/creep levels

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              • #8
                As far as I know, the catapults do not level up by time.
                And, yeah, according to PlayDota, they do not: http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/unitstats
                Treant, for example, has these lines:

                Upgrade:
                [R008] Upgrades every 7:30 starting at first creep spawn. Each level increases health by 10 and damage by 1. Max level of 30.
                Meat Wagon does not have any information for the upgrade.

                At oteshop, I also have the same feeling. I had played DotA for 5 years until the beginning of the summer last year.
                But the values show that the towers should be able to kill the catapults within 3 hits. And from what I see in the npc_units.txt (\Steam\steamapps\common\dota 2 beta\dota\scripts\npc\) the damage range is alright:

                Code:
                		"AttackDamageMin"			"100"		// Damage range min.
                		"AttackDamageMax"			"120"		// Damage range max.
                Again, I am suspecting of something about W3 engine being different about random number generation within a damage range.

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                • #9
                  It is all about dice guys: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showt...highlight=dice

                  But even like that, although the possibilty to do the extremes drops a lot, it just should be able to happen once every while on W3 DotA. Maybe it did, but we did not realize. I cannot be that so certain about that.
                  Anyway, I think this is a RNG issue once again.
                  As far as I know, Dota 2 tries to generate as random as it can be, so it is rolling a single dy.
                  And according to EebstertheGreat, it should be a nightmare: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showp...24&postcount=8

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by oteshop View Post
                    In dota 1, it always took 3 towers hits + extra hero/creep attack to kill a siege unit, which meant that it was possible to guarantee a last hit on them. In dota 2, for some reason the siege units will sometimes die to 3 tower attacks, some other times they will die to 3 tower attacks+ hero/creep attack. This is a considerable potential gold loss for carry players since the siege units provide the highest bounty, on early level where you really need to time your hits right because of low base damage.
                    I was wondering if this has been changed on purpose, or if its just because towers hit damage has in dota 2 has a bigger range that in dota 1 (say 80-130 instead of 100-120).
                    this is a wrong statement. in dota 1 it is never guaranteed that siege creeps will survive from 3 tie1 tower hits. it has always been like this for years.
                    Last edited by Eric37073; 11-07-2012, 08:59 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ThoAppelsin View Post
                      It is all about dice guys: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showt...highlight=dice

                      But even like that, although the possibilty to do the extremes drops a lot, it just should be able to happen once every while on W3 DotA. Maybe it did, but we did not realize. I cannot be that so certain about that.
                      Anyway, I think this is a RNG issue once again.
                      As far as I know, Dota 2 tries to generate as random as it can be, so it is rolling a single dy.
                      And according to EebstertheGreat, it should be a nightmare: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showp...24&postcount=8
                      Towers just use 1 die. From u00M in the 6.76c data dump:
                      dice1=1
                      sides1=21
                      And the other attack:
                      dice2=1
                      sides2=21
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                      • #12
                        The towers don't do a set amount of damage. If you actually read their stats, they do a potential range of damage. Occasionally in dota 2, a tower will hit a siege creep for the "lowball" damage each time, thus allowing you to grab the last hit on it.

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                        • #13
                          In HoN it was always 3 hits then a small amount of damage, but I don't think this has ever been the case in DotA.
                          Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

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                          • #14
                            Go play a couple of games and see for your self, or even, ask any professional player, its a fact.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by oteshop View Post
                              Go play a couple of games and see for your self, or even, ask any professional player, its a fact.
                              lol. u r being more and more unreasonable. #5 gives u the theoretical calculation.
                              and my personal experience tells me that u r wrong(it doesnt prove anything though)

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