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Request: Let Range illusions burn mana like melee ones

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  • #46
    Yea you talk about the difference of melees and ranges that are not orb-related. Off-topic.

    If you want to talk about Not-orb-related melee/range differences feel free to open a thread about it. As far I know Range and melees as well as their illusion act the same for all those orbs. I list them here now:
    OoV,Skadi, Satanic, HotD, Mask of Death, MoM, Desolator,Maelstrom and Mjollnir.

    The only exception has been Skadi(fixed) & Diffu.

    Off-topic:
    Besides Bash/Crit interaction is handled the same way for range/melees here in dota2. Also an intended change. They use the better melee version. You can use one of these to compare it:
    OoV,Skadi, Satanic, HotD, Mask of Death, MoM, Desolator,Maelstrom and Mjollnir and make your "balance" claims. These orb/buff effects make absolutely 0 difference between range & melee.
    sigpic <-- My work is done, if this gets implemented
    Also: つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give Soloqueue!
    Need some incentive to start a match of dota?
    http://getdotastats.com/sig/87346642.png
    Originally posted by DarkLite
    Valve has abandoned the game! The game is now safe to leave.
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    • #47
      You shouldn't put them together in a group just because they are orbs. Otherwise, tell my why quelling blade is the only damage adding item that works different on meele and ranged units (when talking about "groups" of itmes)?
      Orbs only share the same "name", because the orb category was there (is there) to avoid stacking these abilities. That's why maim was removed from there: it behaves like all other orbs, but should stack.

      You also don't need to compare items with other items regarding balance. Stop being short minded and think about it in a global term.
      There is absolutly no reason to buff diffu or ranged heros. All I could do is repeating what I said: there are intended differences between meeles and ranged heros and that's fine. The orb category does not mean "they behave the same": they should avoid stacking (while Mjollnir was a very weird exception, and still is).

      You don't buff/nerf just for fun, it needs a reason, and there is none (apart from the idea if you think that all orbs have to be the same, but that's simply wrong).
      If you think I've closed or deleted a post unjustified, feel free to PM me and I'll explain it to you/discuss it with you further.

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      • #48
        tell my why quelling blade is the only damage adding item that works different on meele and ranged units (when talking about "groups" of itmes)?
        because QB is no orb.

        We dont talk about Orbs here stacking with each other. We talk about range illusions with feedback. Melee illus use feedback and ranges dont. They should however.
        The reason is logic and balance. You get more and more off-topic and annoying.
        Last edited by Bashtime; 03-28-2013, 12:42 PM.
        sigpic <-- My work is done, if this gets implemented
        Also: つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give Soloqueue!
        Need some incentive to start a match of dota?
        http://getdotastats.com/sig/87346642.png
        Originally posted by DarkLite
        Valve has abandoned the game! The game is now safe to leave.
        No statistics will be recorded.

        Comment


        • #49
          QB is a demolish skill like bears level 4 demolish. Only a creep version. QB is infact 2 items seperate, that is why you get 2 different %, same reason why Vanguard and PMS is 2 items with separate bonuses.

          On a side note op is dumb, range illusions shouldn't get mana burn it would be an incredible buff to heoes like mirana TB. Diffusal is a niche item..
          Last edited by Crowfeather; 03-28-2013, 12:51 PM.
          Originally posted by Typhox
          Nope. Windows Explorer is not a database
          Take a look into the mirror! You think you are completely unfailable. With your limited knowledge, you think that you know more than someone who is very deep in the matter/an expert.

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          • #50
            Reason 1, logic: Why? There is no logic behind it. Stop thinking in "orbs". Orbs are only there to avoid stacked abilities. Orbs behave completly different effects, all of them. There are differences between meele and ranged heros - why not keeping one, that has always been there? Oh, and learn to read. QB is the only damage item that differs between range/meele. As you don't like differences inside a group of items, this should be changed too. Oh, and don't forget XP. Differences are intended and don't change just because it's an orb. EDIT: Not a mechanic question Crow, but a balance...

            Reason 2, balance: Are you drunk? Is diffu a bad item? Are all ranged heros bad? THere is no "balance" reason either.

            You simply WANT it without a reason. Diffu is fine, ranged heros are fine and we should never start changing stuff without a basis. Oh btw, revert skadi, thanks.

            EDIT: And I don't think this discussion will evolve anywhere. I think that there is absolutly no reason to change it. That's my statement, have fun with it.
            If you think I've closed or deleted a post unjustified, feel free to PM me and I'll explain it to you/discuss it with you further.

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            • #51
              Kyrill, people like you are called hardliner. You should have a more global view on it. You really think quite narrow-minded about it. I gave you enough reasons, still you don't get it. please make a no-fun-with-skadi-change-thread.

              OP is so fucking dumb he doesn't even consider the "incredible" buff on heroes like mirana, tb,zet and sd. Yea sd. After this change every sd will go Diffu and hardcarry your game with diffu and wreck your asses! This buff is so "imba" & "out of this world" it will be game-breaking. No shit. OP doesn't even consider giving it a difference for range heros like burning the same mana melees do with illus but a reduced factor letz say 50%. Really, OP fuck yourself. You should compare Diffu with group of Items that have nothing in common with it instead. E.g. Heal salve. Critical is no orb effect but I do as if it were so and say it has same effect on range and melee and that's fine. There should be no differnce. Same for Lifesteal. I can list 60 More items that are treated the same way on melees and ranges. But THERE SHOOLD BE A DIFFERENCE! Difference, difference. I can also list 8 items that are not the same for melees and range (Manta, PMS, Vanguard, Stout, QB, HH, basher, Abyssal). he didnt consider that Ranged Manta illus deal only 28% damage take 50% more damage & have 15 seconds more cooldown + the high price.

              This is just pathetic and ridiculous.

              I do expose the "incredible" buff on a example and compare it to an alternative.
              Diffusal damage is dependant from physical armor!

              Mirana Level 25:
              184-195 Damage 86+80 Agi Attack time: 0.55
              Money spent on Items: 5050(Manta) + 4150(Diffu2) + Pt(1400) = 10600 Gold!

              [03:14.37] Mirana Illusion hits Giant Wolf for 48 damage (500->452).
              [03:14.44] Mirana Illusion hits Giant Wolf for 50 damage (451->401).
              [03:14.54] Mirana hits Giant Wolf for 175 damage (400->225).

              Now I got an equivalent farm on a level 25 axe: a HoT and AC (5350 + 5500 = 10850)
              Since he has 26 armor diffu damage is reduced to 13 Damage!
              This is the battle log:
              [08:11.93] Mirana hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3204->3191).
              [08:11.93] Mirana hits Axe for 71 damage (3191->3120).
              [08:12.06] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 18 damage (3120->3102).
              [08:12.23] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 19 damage (3102->3083).
              [08:12.50] Mirana hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3084->3071).
              [08:12.50] Mirana hits Axe for 71 damage (3071->3000).
              [08:12.73] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 19 damage (3001->2982).
              [08:12.90] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 19 damage (2982->2963).
              [08:13.06] Mirana hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (2963->2950).
              [08:13.06] Mirana hits Axe for 70 damage (2949->2879).
              [08:13.36] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 19 damage (2881->2862).
              [08:13.53] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 19 damage (2863->2844).
              [08:13.63] Mirana hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (2844->2831).
              [08:13.63] Mirana hits Axe for 69 damage (2830->2761).
              [08:13.96] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 20 damage (2763->2743).
              [08:14.10] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 18 damage (2743->2725).
              [08:14.20] Mirana hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (2724->2711).
              [08:14.20] Mirana hits Axe for 70 damage (2711->2641).

              Diffu deals already reduced damage only 36% of burned mana. In 3 seconds she would have dealt +8*13= 104 damage more.

              If you attack the berserk called one
              [28:08.44] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 10 damage (3389->3379).
              [28:08.54] Mirana hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 7 damage (3379->3372).
              [28:08.54] Mirana hits Axe for 36 damage (3371->3335).
              [28:09.07] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 10 damage (3340->3330).
              [28:09.27] Mirana Illusion hits Axe for 9 damage (3330->3321).
              [28:09.30] Mirana hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 7 damage (3321->3314).
              [28:09.30] Mirana hits Axe for 36 damage (3313->3277).

              Here 1 second means: +28 damage with mana burning illus


              Here a diffu manta bs in comparison: (192-198)
              [35:03.71] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3460->3447).
              [35:03.71] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe for 25 damage (3447->3422).
              [35:03.77] Bloodseeker hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3422->3409).
              [35:03.77] Bloodseeker hits Axe for 75 damage (3408->3333).
              [35:03.94] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3333->3320).
              [35:03.94] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe for 24 damage (3320->3296).
              [35:04.34] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3298->3285).
              [35:04.34] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe for 24 damage (3284->3260).
              [35:04.41] Bloodseeker hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3260->3247).
              [35:04.41] Bloodseeker hits Axe for 75 damage (3246->3171).
              [35:04.58] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3172->3159).
              [35:04.58] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe for 24 damage (3159->3135).
              [35:04.94] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3136->3123).
              [35:04.94] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe for 24 damage (3122->3098).
              [35:05.01] Bloodseeker hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3099->3086).
              [35:05.01] Bloodseeker hits Axe for 73 damage (3085->3012).
              [35:05.18] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (3012->2999).
              [35:05.18] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe for 24 damage (2998->2974).
              [35:05.55] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe with Diffusal Blade for 13 damage (2977->2964).
              [35:05.55] Bloodseeker Illusion hits Axe for 24 damage (2963->2939).

              Here he has + 7*13=91 damage dealt with illusions. Plus he benefis from being melee. He deals +5 on every hit on average.

              Now a potm with equivalent farm:
              Pt(1400) + Hyper (2100) + Hotd(1850) + Daedelus (5550) = 10900
              Attack time: 0.57
              55:02.49] Mirana hits Axe for 93 damage (4094->4001).
              [55:03.06] Mirana hits Axe for 93 damage (4004->3911).
              [55:03.63] Mirana hits Axe for 224 damage (3915->3691).
              [55:04.16] Mirana hits Axe for 215 damage (3694->3479).
              [55:04.76] Mirana hits Axe for 90 damage (3484->3394).
              [55:05.33] Mirana hits Axe for 89 damage (3397->3308).


              In 3 seconds Potm dealt 563 damage with illus. Could have been 667 damage with that "incredible" buff.
              The alternative potm deal 804 damage in 3 seconds.
              sigpic <-- My work is done, if this gets implemented
              Also: つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give Soloqueue!
              Need some incentive to start a match of dota?
              http://getdotastats.com/sig/87346642.png
              Originally posted by DarkLite
              Valve has abandoned the game! The game is now safe to leave.
              No statistics will be recorded.

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              • #52
                I'm not a hardliner, I simply want reasons for a buff, no matter how small it is. All you can say is "I want". There is absolutly no reason to fix it. A difference? Fine, LET IT BE ONE!
                Neither Diffu nor Potm are bad so just let it untouched.
                If you think I've closed or deleted a post unjustified, feel free to PM me and I'll explain it to you/discuss it with you further.

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                • #53
                  Why is this even happening here? This discussion is purely balance-related, which means it belongs on PlayDotA. Unless, that is, you have some sort of proof that it's a bug...?
                  ◕_◕

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                  • #54
                    Fighting for justice!
                    sigpic <-- My work is done, if this gets implemented
                    Also: つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give Soloqueue!
                    Need some incentive to start a match of dota?
                    http://getdotastats.com/sig/87346642.png
                    Originally posted by DarkLite
                    Valve has abandoned the game! The game is now safe to leave.
                    No statistics will be recorded.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Playdota.com

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