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Moon Glaive does not bounce multiple times per unit

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  • #16
    Thanks to blash for merging and reopening this thread so that I can come post some findings, mostly for discussion, as I guess Valve and Icefrog know about this issue (I hope).

    Well, sort of a lie, there's some quirks to the Warcraft III engine that I'm not sure are known.

    Based on testmap I have made:
    1. There is indeed a gameplay constant Gameplay - Allow Multiple Bounces Per Unit or AllowMultiBounce that does indeed change its behavior between the DotA 1 implementation and the Dota 2 implementation.
    2. This constant works as far as I can see.
    3. The World Editor states that this constant is set to False by default.
    4. The World Editor is wrong. The constant is set to True by default.
    5. The constant has three states: True, False, and Unset. Extracting war3mapMisc.txt will show that the True setting causes it to show AllowMultiBounce=1, and the False setting causes it to show AllowMultiBounce=0. Unset causes the constant to not appear in the extraction. In World Editor Terms, it can show Pink True, Pink False, or Black False (you set Black False by choosing "reset constant").
    6. In all of my tests, Unset or Default Black False results in the same behavior as True.
    7. DotA 1 has this constant unset. This results in it behaving as if True.
    8. My tests show that having this constant set to real False results in the same behavior as Dota 2, with no (noticable) memory leak. I did the following test while monitoring my system resources, and they showed no noticable change:



    9. I am unable to attach my testmap as an attachment to this forum. Just contact me if you want it.
    10. Conclusion: the behavior in Dota 2 is not fixing an engine limitation in Warcraft III, and it significantly affects Luna and Witch Doctor's damage output.
    Last edited by imxtrabored; 05-28-2013, 05:04 PM.

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    • #17
      inb4 icefrog just changes that game constant in dota 1 instead of fixing it in dota 2.
      Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

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      • #18
        Originally posted by DLRevan View Post
        The 'guess' is not on how this constant works, but why this constant exists in the first place. As noted by Robzor, the guess is that it is to prevent bugs. And by whose 'guess' it is, it is not just Robzor's but that of the old mech team and including Icefrog.

        By that token it still remains an intended change in Dota 2, just like a number of other things that could be changed in wc3 but aren't (some very easily), But you can continue to discuss the merits of it.
        Originally posted by DLRevan View Post
        The point I want to make is that what you guys think or post here is taken into consideration with regard to changes like these. You all know that some things have been kept because despite being originally bugs or limitations, they became 'part of the game'. Conversely there are mechanics that have been dropped.

        Whether these things are part of the game or not is based on the perspective of players, which means all of us, and not solely Valve's or Icefrog's.


        That also means we shouldn't immediately overturn changes between the two games just because its not identical and theres no mechanical reason to account for it. While we report bugs by using wc3 Dota as an example of parity, it is a guideline only. In the case of the above issue, it is clear that this was deliberately changed, especially for WD's death ward. This (like everything else) is subject to change and you can state your reasons why you think so, or don't think so.

        The intended changes list is not meant to be a final statement on any changes listed, neither are the comments of any forum staff.

        I don't even understand how volunteer moderators can act so subjectively about something which is without doubt shown to be a bug. Anything that is not within in parity is a bug, however if that parity issue is where the new Dota2 version was where the Dota1 had issues with engine limitations then it can be considered a fix, and even that is loose.




        Maybe we should change the bug list title to "Bugs that the Volunteer mods want to see fixed" and "Bugs that the volunteer mods don't want to see fixed"

        Well I'm losing hope with this game.

        Anyways BUMP this is a very big balance issue >.>
        Last edited by Crowfeather; 05-28-2013, 07:02 PM.
        Originally posted by Typhox
        Nope. Windows Explorer is not a database
        Take a look into the mirror! You think you are completely unfailable. With your limited knowledge, you think that you know more than someone who is very deep in the matter/an expert.

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        • #19
          I would truly be happy if DotA 1 was changed. Not only would that return us to parity, but it would also suggest that I bothered with something far enough that Icefrog himself deigned to change the game.

          It would also show Icefrog/Valve's actual intent.
          Last edited by imxtrabored; 05-28-2013, 08:39 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by imxtrabored View Post
            I would truly be happy if DotA 1 was changed. Not only would that return us to parity, but it would also suggest that I bothered with something far enough that Icefrog himself deigned to change the game.

            It would also show Icefrog/Valve's actual intent.
            The first point you make panders to your ego?

            The 2nd point would be easier if they just said it.
            Originally posted by Typhox
            Nope. Windows Explorer is not a database
            Take a look into the mirror! You think you are completely unfailable. With your limited knowledge, you think that you know more than someone who is very deep in the matter/an expert.

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            • #21
              I love my ego.

              Anyways, I trust Icefrog to balance the game, as he has done so for so long. Programming it? Eeh... Just judging by some of the code snippets in the DotA 1 JASS, he's not exactly the most brilliant coder around. Hoever, if Icefrog says Multi-Bounce is balanced, so be it, and change Dota 2 for parity and balance. If he says No Multi-Bounce is balanced, then change DotA 1 for parity and balance. Whichever one is actually more balanced is a Balance Discussion, which can be corrected at any time just based on factors like Luna and Witch Doctor's win rate, impact, economy, etc. that Valve and Icefrog likely have more data on than anyone else. I don't care which one is chosen in the end, just that one is definitely selected over the other, and both games follow the "correct" option to the best of their capability.

              Same goes for Pugna's second attack. If its balanced, add it to Dota 2. Else, remove it from DotA 1.

              I'm already past believing that Valve and Icefrog will comment on such things as this nowadays.
              Last edited by imxtrabored; 05-29-2013, 12:23 AM.

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              • #22
                Any comments from IF....................

                WD is a freaking shit version of the freaking beast he was in dota 1. Its not even funny
                つ ◕_◕ ༽ つ Give Solo Queue Back! Pls

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                • #23
                  fixed.

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                  • #24
                    What a glorious thread

                    Luna first pick material in 6.79. Nova is happy.

                    WD should be next, I feel like the latest buffs were not enough.
                    Last edited by Noya; 10-26-2013, 04:44 PM.
                    ModDota | My GitHub Profile | My Project's Page

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