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Timber chain slightly too short

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  • Timber chain slightly too short

    assumptions: from ThoAppelsin's thread. special thanks to him.

    in dota1, the chain could latch to a tree "cast range+107" units away along the x,y-axis. however in dota2, first of all, it's only "cast range+89" and second, it is much harder in dota2 to latch a tree at maximum distance. this could also effectively reduce the chain's range in a real game.

    according to playdota page, the search aoe of trees is 90. so i think there is something more to explain the difference between two games. maybe it's collision size maybe it's tree's properties i didnt fully understand.


  • #2
    Well, searching AoE's for trees are actually squares in DotA. And it works in a complicated manner... Not like unit searching AoE's. Read the posts nr 5 and 6 in there for some detailed information if you want:

    - Not checked, but if it is set to be 90 AoE in jass, then it probably is set to be a 180x180 square region
    - Limits of the regions are defined in (xmin, ymin, xmax, ymax) format
    - Each of those 4 limits are rounded down to the closest multiplie of 32
    - Coordinates for trees have to be in multiples of 64
    - Trees have 32 collision size which is again actually a square, meaning that it has 64x64 size
    - For a region to include one tree in it, the whole collision of the tree must be in it
    Thanks to Lordshinjo for the information about the region behaviour

    You may think trees as consisting of 4 elementary 32x32 squares and regions as being able to grow/shrink by 32 units at minimum.

    This post was just to distribute some information, I have to look into the code and make some calculations to say anything factual about the issue


    • #3
      Guess you were right Eric:
      Now, you may start thinking that "how? the difference was only 18 according to my tests, 50 would be too much..."

      Well, my guess is that you have only tried shooting your Timber Chain in DotA towards north or east, am I right?
      If so, please do try the same by shooting your Timber Chain towards south, by cutting down the trees over the hill and post results


      • #4
        edit: towards west: lvl1 chain, max range 939(850+89?).
        Last edited by Eric37073; 03-31-2013, 08:22 PM.


        • #5
          Wait, I am confused.


          • #6
            Okay, according to my calculations the effective tree-searching radius should drop by 64 when trying to hit a tree from its west, and 33 when trying to hit a tree from its east.
            This should result in 850+90-64 = 876 units of effective maximum range from west, and 850+90-33 = 907 units of effective maximum range from east.

            If you are not bored, and if this does not make you feel annoyed etc., you may go ahead and check the maximum range from west (I am assuming that you have tried from east on your first trial)
            The coordinates I had given in the other thread for that tree in DotA might be wrong, hence the calculations might be wrong due to being shifted by 32~64. But when we test from both directions of a single axis, the uncertainty here should fade away.
            I think with the current assumption of the tree coordinates, the result for the max range from west should be 844

            If not, then I don't know... at least for now, at least for today

            Last edited by ThoAppelsin; 03-31-2013, 09:26 PM.


            • #7
              i can only test lvl 2 timber chain from the west. and it's range is 1107, so i would assume lvl 1 is 907.
              in case u wonder, from the north, it's cast range+139 same as from the east.
              so on average, the range is 34 short. +50 in dota2 would make it a bit too long i suppose
              Last edited by Eric37073; 03-31-2013, 09:39 PM.


              • #8
                i also tested nature's guise. it has a tree search aoe of 375.nature's guise.jpg
                as u can see, it seems the tree collision size is much like a 32x32 square.


                • #9
                  Okay, after a sleep, I have realized that I have subtracted too much from both of the calculations. They should rather be like:

                  - from South and West: 850+90-32 = 908
                  - from North and East: 850+90-1 = 939

                  First of all, please do not use the casting range as a measure. Casting ranges essentially do not mean anything.
                  Second is that the travel range in DotA is 850 1050 1250 1450, and that is a fact, which one cannot discuss about.

                  You are right about effective range of Timber Chain in DotA is being crippled by 1~32 while throwing it on cardinal directions. But that is about the searching AoE, definitely not about the travel range.
                  reducing the searching AoE radius in Dota 2 by 16 (the average of 32 and 1) would be a little... idiotic.

                  ^ That is because, the searching area in DotA is actually a square, and not a circle.

                  This means that when you throw the Timber Chain in intermediate directions in DotA, you'll get higher searching lenghts than (90-1) = 89 and (90-32) = 58.
                  You will have;
                  - ~125 max searching range while throwing it towards southwest
                  - ~106 max searching range while throwing it towards northwest or southeast
                  - ~82 max searching range while throwing it towards northeast

                  What would be logical is to find the proper average of all these possible max ranges depending on the possible angles, and then change the SEARCHING RADIUS according to that.
                  Please, just stop saying "+50 would be too much", it sounds irritatingly ignorant to my ears.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eric37073 View Post
                    as u can see, it seems the tree collision size is much like a 32x32 square.
                    Pfft... seriously, it is not 32x32, it is 64x64, but it's just that searching area is a region, and its limits are rounded down to multiples of 32, which ends up making you think that trees have 33x33 collision


                    • #11
                      dude, this is just a discussion. i post this in the brainstorming, coz i dont know the full story. u shouldnt use words like "idiotic" and "ignorant". sure, u understand the map more than i do. but u cant insult people because of that.
                      btw. i use cast range coz its value is correct in both game, so i could minize the ambiguity. and i didnt suggest that search aoe should be increased(or decreased whatever) in dota2.

                      Originally posted by ThoAppelsin View Post
                      Pfft... seriously, it is not 32x32, it is 64x64, but it's just that searching area is a region, and its limits are rounded down to multiples of 32, which ends up making you think that trees have 33x33 collision
                      i mean it "acts" much like 32x32. i know it's 64x64.
                      Last edited by Eric37073; 04-01-2013, 06:56 AM.


                      • #12
                        Here... a graph demonstrating the effective searching ranges of Timber Chain head in both DotA and Dota 2, for a visual comparison:

                        And a play-around link for the graph link for it. Adjust the a variable as you wish to find the best average by yourself:

                        For DotA version the maximum is 104.65 and the minimum is 74. They average at ~89.
                        But the maximum value is on a peak, and the minimum value is located on a flat-ish area, so the proper average should lay closer to 74. Without any calculations and just visual deduction, I would say 85 would be a good average for it.
                        To find the true average of that DotA graph, we'll have to integrate the function and find the area below the graph, and then divide it by 360

                        Okay, WolframAlpha did it for me, here is the result (note that it was done in radians instead of degrees):
                        521.773 / 2pi = 83.043, so 85 should be all good


                        Originally posted by Eric37073 View Post
                        u shouldnt use words like "idiotic" and "ignorant". sure, u understand the map more than i do. but u cant insult people because of that.
                        "idiotic" in that post was used for the act of "reducing the searching aoe by 16", and you did not suggest anything like that. So it was not an insult to you, it was just for anyone who gets the thought of "ok then, we shall reduce the searching range by 16" as he/she has read the information about searching range being shorter by 1~32 while shooting the Timber Chain in cardinal directions. It was not an offensive insult. I also had that thought as I first found out that fact. Then I told myself that it would be idiotic. Nothing bad about it...

                        "ignorant" was indeed a direct insult towards you, not that so harsh, but yeah, it was. Because it is ignorant to suggest "+50 range on timber chain range would be too much" while you should already have realized that it is not about the chain range, but it is about the searching range. Chain range should not be a subject of this discussion, because it actually is irrelevant.
                        Last edited by ThoAppelsin; 04-01-2013, 07:15 AM.