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Clearing Up Some Questions About Cleave

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  • Clearing Up Some Questions About Cleave

    So I was looking at the dota 2 wiki today for information about cleave's damage type.

    I came upon two contrasting statements;

    http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Damage_types
    "The only exception to this is damage from Cleave, which is reduced by armor type but not by armor value or damage block."


    http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Cleave
    "Damage dealt by cleave is reduced by armor type and damage block, but not armor value and can't be evaded."


    So which is it? Is cleave damage (I am standing next to the target being focused) reduced by damage block, say a vanguard?

  • #2
    The damage dealt to the primary target is subject to evasion, damage block and so on and so forth, so if a cleaver hits a squishy with little to no physical damage resistance then everything that gets cleaved will feel the pain. This will mean that it is the responsibility of the tank of the team to do his job properly to make sure the cleaver doesn't get out of control. That is why a team like Na`Vi can lose so hard to a cleaver, a team that generally doesn't care about having a tank on the team.


    IOW, if you want to reduce the cleave damage, force the cleaver to attack the target with the most physical damage resistance. The cleave damage comes from the result of what happened to the primary target. The way the rule about cleave damage is worded, it is misleading people into believing that cleave is better than it really is.
    Last edited by hoveringmover; 06-10-2013, 10:29 AM.
    I will mercilessly add to my ignore list anyone that makes an incredibly annoying signature.

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    • #3
      visit the mechanics forum on playdota. cheers!
      http://www.playdota.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=52



      @above, actually the damage dealt by cleave is UNRELATED to how much damage the primary target took. please dont spread false facts. that is why with kunkka, you want to ideally attack the creep, so all heroes take the unreduced cleave damage.
      -armor does not synergize with tidebringer either.
      ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ raise your hype ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ

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      • #4
        When in doubt. Check playdota's mechanics section:

        http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/physattackmods

        Makes no mention of damage block being applied to cleave'd units. You also went ahead and asked in PD's AM subforums so I guess your question is already answered. Hoveringmover is also wrong. The damage felt by cleave'd units depends on the damage of the attacker -as opposed to the damage the primary target took due to armor values, damage block, etc-. Technically, if your hero has a high % of cleave, in some situations it's more effective to kill a hero with a high armor value by attacking another unit to proc your cleave instead of directly attacking the hero.

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        • #5
          gameplay and mechanic discussions belong on playdota.com.
          Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

          Contributions i'd like to highlight:
          My Suggestion: Coaching System
          My Sticky: Intended Changes List
          My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

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          • #6
            Alright. To clean up all the misinformation in this thread.

            Dota 1: Cleave is reduced by armour TYPE but not VALUE.

            It does not trigger on wards or towers.

            It is based off the RAW damage you deal, not the damage after reductions on your target.

            It is not reduced by anything else except triggered heals (pseudo-evasions such as refraction, living armour, kunkka's boat, dispersion etc.)



            Dota 2: Cleave is reduced by armour TYPE but not VALUE,

            It does not trigger on towers, but triggers on wards (bug) [at least for kunkka]

            It is based off the RAW damage you deal, not the damage after reductions on your target.

            but is also reduced by: damage block (bug) and negated by Guardian Angel (intended change).

            it is also reduced by triggered heals (pseudo-evasions) as above.

            __________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

            TL;DR Dota 2 differences: damage block works against cleave, as does Guardian Angel, wards can be targetted for cleave
            Last edited by Wyn-Ryder; 06-10-2013, 07:00 PM.
            Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Irrelevante View Post
              When in doubt. Check playdota's mechanics section:

              http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/physattackmods

              Makes no mention of damage block being applied to cleave'd units. You also went ahead and asked in PD's AM subforums so I guess your question is already answered. Hoveringmover is also wrong. The damage felt by cleave'd units depends on the damage of the attacker -as opposed to the damage the primary target took due to armor values, damage block, etc-. Technically, if your hero has a high % of cleave, in some situations it's more effective to kill a hero with a high armor value by attacking another unit to proc your cleave instead of directly attacking the hero.
              If that were true why did DotaCinema bother to prove my point with the evasion video?

              Look from 1:33.
              IOW: the cleave is still ridiculous at times. All the cleaver has to do is attack some target besides the tank, even a creep works. This will mean that the tank that failed to do his job will take a ridiculous amount of damage compared to normal, as none of his physical resistance will have any effect. I'm not trying to downplay this but there is a large difference between what is really going on in the game and what people are being misled into believing is going on in the game.

              "Technically, if your hero has a high % of cleave, in some situations it's more effective to kill a hero with a high armor value by attacking another unit to proc your cleave instead of directly attacking the hero." - Your own words prove my point.
              Last edited by hoveringmover; 06-10-2013, 08:53 PM.
              I will mercilessly add to my ignore list anyone that makes an incredibly annoying signature.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by hoveringmover View Post
                If that were true why did DotaCinema bother to prove my point with the evasion video?

                Look from 1:33.
                IOW: the cleave is still ridiculous at times. All the cleaver has to do is attack some target besides the tank, even a creep works. This will mean that the tank that failed to do his job will take a ridiculous amount of damage compared to normal, as none of his physical resistance will have any effect. I'm not trying to downplay this but there is a large difference between what is really going on in the game and what people are being misled into believing is going on in the game.

                "Technically, if your hero has a high % of cleave, in some situations it's more effective to kill a hero with a high armor value by attacking another unit to proc your cleave instead of directly attacking the hero." - Your own words prove my point.
                You are still wrong. Let's say our cleaver deals 100 damage, A has 15 armor, B has 5 armor. If he attacks A, A will take 52.6 damage and all the other targets will take 100. If he attacks B, B will take 77 damage, all the other targets (including A) will take 100. The damage dealt to secondary targets ignores the armor of the first one.

                From 1:33 it shows DK. DK has no cleave, he has splash, it is completely different. Splash does not ignore armor.
                Last edited by godofrandom; 06-10-2013, 11:24 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by godofrandom View Post
                  You are still wrong. Let's say our cleaver deals 100 damage, A has 15 armor, B has 5 armor. If he attacks A, A will take 52.6 damage and all the other targets will take 100. If he attacks B, B will take 77 damage, all the other targets (including A) will take 100. The damage dealt to secondary targets ignores the armor of the first one.

                  From 1:33 it shows DK. DK has no cleave, he has splash, it is completely different. Splash does not ignore armor.
                  100% agree, assuming the cleaving unit has 100% cleave. Props for registering just for this :P
                  Comprehensive Damage Reduction & Amplifications Dota 2 Guide

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Wyn-Ryder View Post
                    Alright. To clean up all the misinformation in this thread.

                    Dota 1: Cleave is reduced by armour TYPE but not VALUE.

                    It does not trigger on wards or towers.

                    It is based off the RAW damage you deal, not the damage after reductions on your target.

                    It is not reduced by anything else except triggered heals (pseudo-evasions such as refraction, living armour, kunkka's boat, dispersion etc.)



                    Dota 2: Cleave is reduced by armour TYPE but not VALUE,

                    It does not trigger on towers, but triggers on wards (bug) [at least for kunkka]

                    It is based off the RAW damage you deal, not the damage after reductions on your target.

                    but is also reduced by: damage block (bug) and negated by Guardian Angel (intended change).

                    it is also reduced by triggered heals (pseudo-evasions) as above.

                    __________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

                    TL;DR Dota 2 differences: damage block works against cleave, as does Guardian Angel, wards can be targetted for cleave
                    This is totally correct.

                    Please not that Wyn-Ryder was talking about cleave, not splash, psi-blades or anything else. Cleave can actually have only 5 sources: battlefury, sven's passive, tiny with aghs, kunkka's tidebringer and magnus buff on melee units.
                    You're only as strong as your weakest link.
                    -Thomas Reid

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                    • #11
                      Thanks for the info, everyone!

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