Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules

  • No flaming or derogatory remarks, directly or through insinuation.
  • No discussion, sharing or referencing illegal software such as hacks, keygen, cracks and pirated software.
  • No offensive contents, including but not limited to, racism, gore or pornography.
  • No excessive spam/meme, i.e. copious one liners in a short period of time, typing with all caps or posting meme responses (text/image).
  • No trolling, including but not limited to, flame incitation, user provocation or false information distribution.
  • No link spamming or signature advertisements for content not specific to Dota 2.
  • No Dota 2 key requests, sell, trade etc.
  • You may not create multiple accounts for any purpose, including ban evasion, unless expressly permitted by a moderator.

  • Please search before posting. One thread per issue. Do not create another thread if there is an existing one already.
  • Before posting anything, make sure you check out all sticky threads (e.g., this). Do not create new threads about closed ones.
  • It is extremely important that you post in correct forum section.

  • Balance discussion only in Misc.
  • All art related (such as hero model) feedbacks go to Art Feedback Forum.
  • All matchmaking feedback should go here: Matchmaking Feedback
  • All report/low priority issues should go here: Commend/Report/Ban Feedback
  • No specific workshop item feedback. These should go to workshop page of that item.
  • When posting in non-bugs section (such as this), use [Bugs], [Discussion] or [Suggestion] prefix in your thread name.



In case you object some action by a moderator, please contact him directly through PM and explain your concerns politely. If you are still unable to resolve the issue, contact an administrator. Do not drag these issues in public.



All rules are meant to augment common sense, please use them when not conflicted with aforementioned policies.
See more
See less

Dota2 10x10 map, maintenance and suggestions.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Dota2 10x10 map, maintenance and suggestions.

    If this thread would better fit in a different section, pls move there.

    Topic based on another small thread: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=190490
    Originally posted by Kryil- View Post
    This topic is really a bit of a problem. The more custom maps Valve develops the more maintenance they'll have to do to keep stuff running. Maybe they should hand it over to some known map creators, but I don't see this happening.
    Anyway, hope Valve at least has a filter that tells them wich custom maps are most played, this one seems to be crowded all the time and deserving some care.

    Obviously the 10x10 will never be completely balanced or fair, however a few simple changes will make it much better.
    Requesting maintenance and a few tweaks, after playing a couple times anyone notices common problems:

    - Heroes are in every match due to abuseable skills: Zeus/AA/Furion-NP ult, Pudge flesh heap, Sniper range, etc. Suggestion: Reduce power of these skills by 20% ot 30%.

    - Some heroes were removed (Silencer, Blood). Suggestion: Bring those back but change skills to cover a range instead of being global. For example Silencer ult affects enemies up to 1500/2250/3000 range (maybe reduce the area for curse).

    - Leavers are common, specially at start/early game, Zeus constantly farms leavers with scepter+refresher. Suggestion: Aside reduce power of Zeus ult, maybe allow everyone to get bonuses from "Gauntlets of Strength" despite ownership of the item, so leavers with 6 gauntlets (that cannot be sold) stay alive. Perhaps a more creative solution is needed here.

    - Leavers don't give gold or provide any help, a team with +2/3 players (common since abandon has no penalty) wins, even if they were losing badly. Maybe alow some gold from leavers to be given to team.

    - Altough its not a MUST right now, in the future rebalance some skills that have strong area effect (Undying, Warlock, Tiny, Invoker, etc.) since those heroes outperform others.


    IMO this map can easily grow and become an addition to regular dota2 gameplay modes, if only the devs are interested in taking the time to adress its issues.
    Last edited by Himself; 03-25-2016, 04:10 AM.

  • #2
    IMO this map can easily grow and become an addition to regular dota2 gameplay modes, if only the devs are interested in taking the time to adress its issues.
    I am guessing that they simply don't want to open this can of worms. There will always be requests for more tweaks and fixes no matter how many they implement. I have worked in the game industry myself and know what its like - often time developers dont get to choose what they will work on and are always rushing from one deadline to the next.

    Personally I am an avid 10v10 player - its all I play actually. Therefore like yourself, I believe this game mode has a lot of potential. However when I saw that valve did not release a single update for 10v10 since its launch (i'm guessing for reasons described above), I took it upon myself to learn dota 2 modding and with help of the community created a mod which checks quite a lot of features that people have been asking for.

    The problem is that its all but impossible to get games started since this is my first ever mod and I do not have a previous following. If this mod was able to gain some gravitational pull, I would be more than tickled pink to maintain it. And by maintain it I mean making it a community based mod where people like yourself post feedback and balance suggestions and I implement said changes. However there is only so much I can do to spread it (I have already spent 3 months developing it since I had to fight learning curves). It now falls on the community to try and spread it if they ever want to have a 10v10 game mode thats actually supported. I am happy to do my part in spreading it but am not sure where to begin as mentioned before.
    Last edited by Arkatakor; 02-10-2016, 07:13 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Wow, really nice to know that you've tried and done an improved version!

      But like Kyril said, it probably would be better if Valve just handled over the map, or "borrowed" it to a modder/group with a montly (or 2-3 months) check to see if they weren't doing something out of bounds.

      Add me if you wish, I can try to help in play and fill the room: http://steamcommunity.com/id/ramosmichel/
      South America - Brazil
      AFAIK the current 10x10 runs on Valve servers so it doesnt need a "host", I figure there will be region and lag conflicts if it ever starts needing players to host.

      They could focus on the 10x10 map specially for new players to learn the ropes... its a lot easier, straightforward and hassle free than the normal modes/games are.
      I almost compare a dota2 10x10 to a TF2 match, just as fun were it not for the balance problems mentioned previously (1st message).
      Last edited by Himself; 02-10-2016, 04:11 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Himself View Post
        But like Kyril said, it probably would be better if Valve just handled over the map, or "borrowed" it to a modder/group with a montly (or 2-3 months) check to see if they weren't doing something out of bounds.
        I don't think Valve would support this idea since it would still need to be published under their name. Imagine if there would be a critical bug on a certain release - Valve would be taking all the heat for it even though their devs did not actually cause the bug.

        Originally posted by Himself View Post
        Add me if you wish, I can try to help in play and fill the room: http://steamcommunity.com/id/ramosmichel/
        Unfortunately it would It would be pointless that you and I joined the same lobby since I am located in Sweden. I'll add you nonetheless

        Originally posted by Himself View Post
        AFAIK the current 10x10 runs on Valve servers so it doesnt need a "host", I figure there will be region and lag conflicts if it ever starts needing players to host.
        Thats why anyone who is interested in spreading awareness of this mod would have to host regionally. In your case it would mean coordinating a game wth your regional friends. Since hitting the 20 man is daunting (i've tried it) I would suggest seeing if you can get 14 players in a game (7v7). Writing this post gave me an idea; I think i'll un-nerf some heroes (they are nerfed according to having 20 players in game) until lobbies start to fill up. That way the game wont be so 20 man dependant at the start.

        As for dedicated servers, AFAIK first a mod needs to get a decent number of subscribers and dialy players, then Valve contacts the modder and the latter then can set his mod up for dedicated servers.

        PS: I saw your post in the suggestion section - i'll get back to you on that; just been tremendously busy
        Last edited by Arkatakor; 02-11-2016, 10:45 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Ah well if its just for test purposues suppose one can play with a couple seconds delay, just pretend I'm a very bad player ^^

          BTW loved the map image in broken vitral style with so many heroes depicted.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Arkatakor View Post
            I don't think Valve would support this idea since it would still need to be published under their name. Imagine if there would be a critical bug on a certain release - Valve would be taking all the heat for it even though their devs did not actually cause the bug.
            Then they should just put down their own map and let modders such as you plus others do the job with custom 10x10 versions.

            Currently its impossible to compete with a Valve map, you'll never get your "gravitational pull", as much as I wished to see it happening. Valve dedicated servers + player ignorance weights too heavily in the equation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Himself View Post
              BTW loved the map image in broken vitral style with so many heroes depicted.
              Thanks for that - I tried to emphasize in the visuals what its like to have bloodseeker / deathprophet in game

              Originally posted by Himself View Post
              Then they should just put down their own map and let modders such as you plus others do the job with custom 10x10 versions.
              I wish they would. I'll make an attempt to contact them to see if a solution can be found to get some sort of maintenance for this map. I'm guessing they are reading this as well.

              Originally posted by Himself View Post
              Currently its impossible to compete with a Valve map, you'll never get your "gravitational pull", as much as I wished to see it happening. Valve dedicated servers + player ignorance weights too heavily in the equation.
              Yeah players are just not patient enough to wait more than a few minutes in a lobby for a new game. When I hosted usually I would get one joiner every 1-2 minutes. The problem is 90% of them would immediately leave. If someone hosted for say 20 min and no one left, it would be possible to start a game. Then future games would be easier to host, etc etc.

              My big mistake was to make this mod 20 man dependent. That was a bad design choice. The only way to get around this is to come up with a new idea or enhancement that makes this mod different from others, and give players the explicit option to choose for 5v5. Those lobbies would be easier to fill up. Then once that gets a following, the map could be extended to 10v10. In the meanwhile i'll reduce the nerfs to the global heroes as a quickfix for playing games with less than 20 people.

              Comment


              • #8
                Bump

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Himself View Post

                  - Leavers are common, specially at start/early game, Zeus constantly farms leavers with scepter+refresher. Suggestion: Aside reduce power of Zeus ult, maybe allow everyone to get bonuses from "Gauntlets of Strength" despite ownership of the item, so leavers with 6 gauntlets (that cannot be sold) stay alive. Perhaps a more creative solution is needed here.

                  - Leavers don't give gold or provide any help, a team with +2/3 players (common since abandon has no penalty) wins, even if they were losing badly. Maybe alow some gold from leavers to be given to team.
                  Just add usual report/leave system and these two problems will be fixed.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lethalangel View Post
                    Just add usual report/leave system and these two problems will be fixed.
                    Agreed but I don't see Valve ever making this commitment since their logic is anything but practical.

                    BTW this would also solve the problem of host using the "shuffle teams" option and players leaving because they are in a duo or party. Such players should at least be hosting the game to ensure they wanna play without shuffle option.
                    Last edited by Himself; 03-10-2016, 02:56 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Bump.

                      Was incredibly impossible to play today, so many leavers on every match. Also the occasional afk/noob host who cannot lock+start.

                      Congrats again Valve, for keeping the ludicrously lame system and complete lack of improvements.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Please add 10v10 to the normal match making on the front screen including all other blizzard maps
                        this will fix
                        * Abandons
                        * Implement match making
                        * Allow reports
                        * Allow for things like all random, captains mode, single draft, captains draft.
                        * people wont accidentally queue for incorrect regions

                        Furthermore please edit the 10v10 map to ban the following global heroes
                        Zeus
                        Spectre

                        Also edit map to allow for new rune and to add arc warden & map terrains

                        Arguments for NP & AA to be added to this group are irrelevant as they require either vision or a skill shot for their "global ults" to work. These 2 heroes are fine Spec & Zeus ruin this mode
                        Last edited by Insanitis; 03-31-2016, 08:02 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If I was only allowed to ask Valve for one change regarding dota 10v10 it would be to remove Zues. As a modder, I know that it would take them less than a minute, both to modify the scripts\npc\herolist.txt file (setting a 1 to a 0) as well as to publish the mod (takes less than 20 sec). This alone would make the greatest difference for this mod.

                          @Insanitis

                          You have probably already read my earlier post in this thread, but for what its worth, I have created a mod in an attempt to rebalance heroes like zues and spectre. I nerfed zues ult by 10% (way less than deserved) and reduced spectre's haunt by 1 sec on each level. I have also added all the missing heroes (with some minor nerfs to avoid them being OP). You can find it here. I have even created a facebook page over the last few days though am not sure how to use it best for this purpose.

                          This mod will not solve all the behavioral / reporting problems connected with 10v10, but if it ever takes off, I will introduce some buffing mechanism for the team that has leavers on it to dissuade the rest of the players from leaving. A small step but at least something in the right direction. The problem as mentioned earlier is getting a game started - it takes a long time to fill up a 20 man lobby and most people will not wait more than a few minutes. The only way is to coordinate hosted games; i'm working on figuring out how best to use the internet for this purpose - maybe the facebook page will be a step in the right direction.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I saw your thread Arkatakor but keep in mind that getting games up on a reliable host are hard. This is why a lot of people stick to dedicated server games.

                            I think its easier to just remove Zeus & Spectre. And as you said its a quick change

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Insanitis View Post
                              getting games up on a reliable host are hard.
                              Even if Ark map was perfectly balanced, people would still play the official dota2 version (unless Valve took it down). People are lame like that.

                              I think its easier to just remove Zeus & Spectre. And as you said its a quick change
                              Yup removing Zeus is the kind of ludicrous 'solution' I would expect from Valve. Specter is still a very contitional hero, makes it easier for the other team to stomp at early, and stomps are common (few people play a good spectre and farm a radi by say min 15-20) . Wraith King with scepter is just as IMBA, as is Furion scepter/refresher and half-decent push skills.

                              Basically a team with Zeus, AA, Furion, Spectre -> Will ALWAYS WIN if game is not a stomp from 1 side. Constant nukes from global ults is a death sentence as the match progresses.
                              Last edited by Himself; 04-04-2016, 06:44 AM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X