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How can u call this matchmaking valve?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Craig View Post
    He's playing in a team with 4 melee heroes, none of which took Vlad.

    1x Vladimir's Offering
    2050 gold = 4x+16% lifesteal, 5x+15% dmg, 5x+5 Armour, 5x+0.8 Mana Regen

    Is that really too expensive?

    Sure, someone else could've built it instead, but they didn't.

    If he had built a second Vlad, then I would agree with you, but when you add it all up, I'm not sure there are many better items, in that situation.

    It's going to work better than 5 Dominators, which cost about the same as one Vald each, since +15% dmg is better than +20 dmg in the majority of cases.

    5x Helm of the Dominator
    9250 gold = 5x+15% lifesteal, 5x+20 dmg, 5x+5 Armour

    What would you spend the 2050 gold on instead?

    This looks very much like yet another case of misunderstanding a build decision, leading to a belief that the matchmaking is broken.
    Exactly, you're the Abaddon, right? Who bought a ton of defensive items even though you have a totally defensive skill set. Overkill. You're the perfect choice to be buying all the damage on the team. And yet you bought Pipe + Mekansm. I'm sure sniper thinks you're the newbie since you're barely life stealing anything at this point. Also, your Axe buddy bought Eul's scepter which is completely face palm to me and just screams out "Puck/Ancient Apparition/Invoker/Batrider is one of my favorite heroes and I rage quit the game in my own way by buying trolling items instead of real ones". Furthermore, Troll Warlord was present in the team, so Sniper's biggest handicap, that being his speed is not a handicap at all. Meaning he's fully functional as he is. Slark also benefits a lot from Troll Warlord. I feel like Axe and Abaddon for the most part weren't doing their job of tanking. If they had been, everything would have been fine. Pretty much what it looks like to me is Axe got mad at Abaddon and disagreed with his build(I would agree with Axe if that's the case) and went so far as to be a troll himself. I could be wrong though, and maybe they are both just friends that are really bad at the game.

    So yes, you're right that the MM is broken. But not in the way(s) that you think it is.
    Last edited by hoveringmover; 07-15-2013, 01:07 PM.
    I will mercilessly add to my ignore list anyone that makes an incredibly annoying signature.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by ZheK View Post
      Maybe even after 1000 games, you're still really shit.
      1000 games played vs someone with 10 games played. I played a game where a Pudge with 23 wins destroyed a storm spirit mid who had 1600 wins. 1600 WINS.
      Pudge was 9-0 10 minutes in...

      Now that Pudge was an obvious smurf, the thing is, I watched the replay. The storm kept getting easily hooked by pudge or pudge just walked up to him and rotted to death. Either Storm's internet was messed up or his computer was messed up. Regardless, he fed hardcore and was like 8-20 at the end of the game.

      Now, seeing someone with 23 wins destroy someone with 1600 wins is a rare occurence.

      I still would've preferred the player with 1600 wins.
      ========================= / / / / / =========================

      ==== / / / / / ==============================================

      ===================================/ / / / /================

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by hoveringmover View Post
        Exactly, you're the Abaddon, right? Who bought a ton of defensive items even though you have a totally defensive skill set. Overkill. You're the perfect choice to be buying all the damage on the team. And yet you bought Pipe + Mekansm. I'm sure sniper thinks you're the newbie since you're barely life stealing anything at this point.
        Pipe+Mek on support Aba is decent. Those are defensive items that contribute to the whole team, not some selfish defensive items like Blademail or Heart. Or are you claiming that he should be played as a carry?

        I can't watch the replay now, but judging from the ending results both Sniper and Troll Warlord DID die a lot. The one who died more during the laning stage is probably to blame for the loss. And looking at the last hit stats I have a feeling that Troll was a bigger issue.

        Also PLS STOP BUILDING VANGUARDS.
        Last edited by Keowee; 07-15-2013, 01:10 PM.
        Remember, remember the 1st of November

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Keowee View Post
          Pipe+Mek on support Aba is decent. Those are defensive items that contribute to the whole team, not some selfish defensive items like Blademail or Heart. Or are you claiming that he should be played as a carry?

          I can't watch the replay now, but judging from the ending results both Sniper and Troll Warlord DID die a lot. The one who died more during the laning stage is probably to blame for the loss. Also PLS STOP BUILDING VANGUARDS.
          It's not that Vanguard is a bad item, but against that team with Pudge, Lina and Jakiro I would definitely be concerned about all that magic damage and think a Cloak is an extremely attractive item. But as I already said, and no I won't give any validity to your style of playing Abaddon in this case, Abaddon and Axe had awful item builds so arguing that Slark and Axe could've built better items than vanguard is totally pointless to the meaning of the thread.

          At any rate, It looks like at a glance that Sniper is in a whole other league compared to Axe and Abaddon(at least when it comes to teamwork), and possibly even Slark and Troll Warlord. True, Sniper and Troll died a lot, but without watching a replay you don't know why. Maybe they were 2v5 for ten minutes while their allies were playing too passively to be considered still playing but enough to prevent abandonment. I have seen more than I would like to have seen already of rotten Slark players, and I have little to no doubt that he was awful. I can't even fathom how he managed to die 7 times against that team with those items that he bought. He bought very defensive items and even had an allied Vladmir's Offering to work with. If I was him, I know that kind of score would've been completely impossible. But at the same time, Abaddon and Axe trolling around weren't doing him any favors, so you should really cut the guy some slack.

          What this game boils down to is people getting mad that 5 random people didn't communicate perfectly who never knew each other before jumping into the game and blaming MM when they should be blaming the bad attitudes of the players for not trying to work together. With that mentioned, no one can argue successfully that anybody did enough damage. And that's the problem with so called 'all carry lineups'. People can't agree on what items to build to have synergy with the team. Overall, I don't see how you can look at Troll's ultimate and Abaddon's 3rd skill and think that it's okay to buy the same sorts of items you'd buy in other games. For example, if you had Mask of Madness and 10 base damage, would you keep buying attack speed? Or would you buy some damage? You would buy damage, right? So what if you have a free Mask of Madness and you also have free life steal? Are you seriously suggesting that you shouldn't buy damage over defensive items? Anything you invest into damage will go into your defense because you have free life steal. So IOW because Sniper and Troll Warlord were such team players, Axe and Abaddon absolutely could not carry the game. Any kills they got were simply them finishing off people while someone else did most of the work. Not impressive at all.

          Where are the Skull Bashers? The Maelstroms? The Monkey King Bars? I just don't see so much of that stuff, despite that Troll Warlord has an ultimate that enhances those kinds of items.

          The problem with MM at the moment is, even the people into Very High don't know basics like what I mentioned above. This is absolutely unacceptable. Furthermore, the complaints found in threads like this one proves that there needs to be additional tiers, including sub-tiers for players that just aren't competent, but below competent. Only then could they learn, by playing across tiers with competent players. If you end up in a sub tier it just goes to show you're an average player, and hopefully over time the average player can be competent...but as it is right now, the average player is far less than competent at this game.

          Here's how I see these players as it should be:

          Tiers existing: 5
          1) Very bad - 45 percent of the players are here currently.
          2) Bad - 30 percent of the players are here currently. :/
          3) Competent - Everyone starts here but may quickly rise or fall(most of them would have fallen already) tiers. - 15 percent of the players are here currently.
          4) Good - Full of Professional players and non-Professional players alike, sad to say most Professional players are not even as high as this. I believe the ratio is 65 percent < Good, 35 percent = Good, and 10 percent > Good - 7 percent of the players are here currently.
          5) Very Good - Professional and non-Professional alike would find themselves here quickly - 3 percent of the players are here currently.

          Sniper is a 3, possibly a 4, but i doubt it. Impossible to confirm without looking at the replay(or at more of his matches). Slark is a 2, possibly a 3 but unlikely and again impossible to confirm without looking at the replay(or at more of his matches). Troll Warlord is definitely either a 2(more likely) or a 3, impossible to tell without checking the replay(or at more of his matches), and Axe is definitely a 1. It's very likely that Abaddon is a 1, but again it's impossible to tell for sure without watching the replay(or at more of his matches). He might be a 2.

          So the way I see it, MM needs to improve those numbers. I want to see tier 3 being the most heavily populated. Instead, tier 1 is. The only way you're going to bring those numbers up is by adding sub tiers.

          These are true skill tiers coming from a tier 5 player. What I have witnessed is that you can find players from skill tiers 1-5 in all 'replay skill brackets' in MM. If we add in additional skill tiers, it would be far easier to restrict how annoyingly broken the MM can be.
          Last edited by hoveringmover; 07-15-2013, 02:01 PM.
          I will mercilessly add to my ignore list anyone that makes an incredibly annoying signature.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Djdkdjdkdjdk View Post
            1000 games played vs someone with 10 games played. I played a game where a Pudge with 23 wins destroyed a storm spirit mid who had 1600 wins. 1600 WINS.
            Pudge was 9-0 10 minutes in...

            Now that Pudge was an obvious smurf, the thing is, I watched the replay. The storm kept getting easily hooked by pudge or pudge just walked up to him and rotted to death. Either Storm's internet was messed up or his computer was messed up. Regardless, he fed hardcore and was like 8-20 at the end of the game.

            Now, seeing someone with 23 wins destroy someone with 1600 wins is a rare occurence.

            I still would've preferred the player with 1600 wins.
            It makes it more probable that he is good, but that's it, i personally can't stand pudge with his "hope i get lucky and they are bad" strategy, i don't think he has a place in 1600 win game, or a 200 win one.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by hoveringmover View Post
              It's not that Vanguard is a bad item, but against that team with Pudge, Lina and Jakiro I would definitely be concerned about all that magic damage and think a Cloak is an extremely attractive item. But as I already said, and no I won't give any validity to your style of playing Abaddon in this case, Abaddon and Axe had awful item builds so arguing that Slark and Axe could've built better items than vanguard is totally pointless to the meaning of the thread.

              At any rate, It looks like at a glance that Sniper is in a whole other league compared to Axe and Abaddon(at least when it comes to teamwork), and possibly even Slark and Troll Warlord. True, Sniper and Troll died a lot, but without watching a replay you don't know why. Maybe they were 2v5 for ten minutes while their allies were playing too passively to be considered still playing but enough to prevent abandonment. I have seen more than I would like to have seen already of rotten Slark players, and I have little to no doubt that he was awful. I can't even fathom how he managed to die 7 times against that team with those items that he bought. He bought very defensive items and even had an allied Vladmir's Offering to work with. If I was him, I know that kind of score would've been completely impossible. But at the same time, Abaddon and Axe trolling around weren't doing him any favors, so you should really cut the guy some slack.

              What this game boils down to is people getting mad that 5 random people didn't communicate perfectly who never knew each other before jumping into the game and blaming MM when they should be blaming the bad attitudes of the players for not trying to work together. With that mentioned, no one can argue successfully that anybody did enough damage. And that's the problem with so called 'all carry lineups'. People can't agree on what items to build to have synergy with the team. Overall, I don't see how you can look at Troll's ultimate and Abaddon's 3rd skill and think that it's okay to buy the same sorts of items you'd buy in other games. For example, if you had Mask of Madness and 10 base damage, would you keep buying attack speed? Or would you buy some damage? You would buy damage, right? So what if you have a free Mask of Madness and you also have free life steal? Are you seriously suggesting that you shouldn't buy damage over defensive items? Anything you invest into damage will go into your defense because you have free life steal. So IOW because Sniper and Troll Warlord were such team players, Axe and Abaddon absolutely could not carry the game. Any kills they got were simply them finishing off people while someone else did most of the work. Not impressive at all.

              Where are the Skull Bashers? The Maelstroms? The Monkey King Bars? I just don't see so much of that stuff, despite that Troll Warlord has an ultimate that enhances those kinds of items.

              The problem with MM at the moment is, even the people into Very High don't know basics like what I mentioned above. This is absolutely unacceptable. Furthermore, the complaints found in threads like this one proves that there needs to be additional tiers, including sub-tiers for players that just aren't competent, but below competent. Only then could they learn, by playing across tiers with competent players. If you end up in a sub tier it just goes to show you're an average player, and hopefully over time the average player can be competent...but as it is right now, the average player is far less than competent at this game.

              Here's how I see these players as it should be:

              Tiers existing: 5
              1) Very bad - 45 percent of the players are here currently.
              2) Bad - 30 percent of the players are here currently. :/
              3) Competent - Everyone starts here but may quickly rise or fall(most of them would have fallen already) tiers. - 15 percent of the players are here currently.
              4) Good - Full of Professional players and non-Professional players alike, sad to say most Professional players are not even as high as this. I believe the ratio is 65 percent < Good, 35 percent = Good, and 10 percent > Good - 7 percent of the players are here currently.
              5) Very Good - Professional and non-Professional alike would find themselves here quickly - 3 percent of the players are here currently.

              Sniper is a 3, possibly a 4, but i doubt it. Impossible to confirm without looking at the replay(or at more of his matches). Slark is a 2, possibly a 3 but unlikely and again impossible to confirm without looking at the replay(or at more of his matches). Troll Warlord is definitely either a 2(more likely) or a 3, impossible to tell without checking the replay(or at more of his matches), and Axe is definitely a 1. It's very likely that Abaddon is a 1, but again it's impossible to tell for sure without watching the replay(or at more of his matches). He might be a 2.

              So the way I see it, MM needs to improve those numbers. I want to see tier 3 being the most heavily populated. Instead, tier 1 is. The only way you're going to bring those numbers up is by adding sub tiers.

              These are true skill tiers coming from a tier 5 player. What I have witnessed is that you can find players from skill tiers 1-5 in all 'replay skill brackets' in MM. If we add in additional skill tiers, it would be far easier to restrict how annoyingly broken the MM can be.
              To take this further,

              Tiers are completely fluid from one hero to the next for most players. That 2 Slark may be a 3-4 with his main heroes, but decided to play Slark that game who he's played very little. Same with the Axe. Hero abilities vary so much, it's impossible to make an assumption on someones skill based on one showing with any given hero. That's the real challenge of matchmaking. We play well with some heroes, but all but those on the "5" level will feed (or simply struggle) with others. Whether you pick a hero that you can perform on the 3-4 level with in a game vs a hero that you're more likely to give a 1-2 level effort with can't be predicted by matchmaking.

              It's a really interesting quandary.

              Comment


              • #22
                the matchmaking is bad

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by ZheK View Post
                  [citation needed]
                  Is this enough?
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by sosho; 07-15-2013, 03:15 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Oh yes, if it isn't that "special" person hoveringmover teaching "lesser players" how to play.. ROFL. Just read this fools post from another thread and behold his ULTIMATE pro style:


                    Originally posted by hoveringmover View Post
                    If you think you're so smart, explain to me this. What's the sixth most popular item according to DOTABUFF on Lina this month? For a 60 percent win rate, the Blink Dagger. And for a 35 percent win rate, coming in at third most popular item, the Bracer. The Bracer goes into Drums which is oddly enough the seventh most popular item at a 52 percent win rate. So that may explain the weak win rate that Bracer experiences, players simply can't get the gold they need for the Drums and the game is over very quickly. However apparently the advantage is so great when they do when that they can afford such an item as a Blink Dagger and still not lose 60 percent of the time. But looking back on every game I've ever seen Lina play in, Blink Dagger on her has shown itself to be needing to be renamed to Feed Dagger. Why don't people go for Bloodstone, with its 73 percent win rate, which is the 8th most popular? Or a Linken's Sphere perhaps, with its 72 percent win rate, and yet a popularity place of 56th? Or 63rd place Refresher Orb at 72 percent win rate?

                    If you really think Feed Dagger is going to help her avoid feeding Phantom Assassin, you're part of the MM system that gets thrown at good players for the sake of attempting to make them lose.

                    Now let me ask you, since I have never lost to a Feed Dagger Lina, how is it possible? Yes, I've lost to Blink Dagger heroes plenty of times, but never her. The item is just that bad, yet how do other people do it? Because MM is just that broken. It actually doesn't recognize that the Lina in my game is any worse than I am, and assumes we're on the same level. So if we play together 5 games in a row and win 5 games in a row, she'll get really bad allies or good opponents when we go our separate ways the next game, as will I, and assuming nobody on our teams were actually trolling but were just legitimately bad, she won't be able to handle it, while I will. Where is the sense in that?

                    You would be surprised how many people are willing to troll you just for the sake of protecting their pride. And the chat ban system makes it harder than ever to explain to your allies what they could do better.

                    Don't forget that she has an overall win rate of 45 percent. That's definitely below average, indicating that when she's winning with a Bluff Dagger, she obviously could've contributed way more by buying any other item. If the most popular items were really the best items she could be buying, she'd surely have a much higher win rate. The reason she's able to afford such a relatively useless item and still win is because of her teammates, not because of the player controlling her.
                    In reply to him I wrote:

                    Originally posted by BlinkingRiki182 View Post
                    I just love people that dont understand what blink dagger is for. This is a positioning item, not an escape item my friend. It helps you land that stun on several heroes at once (if they are not careful). It's an initiator item that (when used correctly) makes the whole difference between an average joe support and a high lvl player.
                    He answers:

                    Originally posted by hoveringmover View Post
                    I understand what it is for just fine. It's the people that buy it on Lina against assassins that don't need to be thrown at innocent players that won too many games! That's what the original post is about, the MM justifying the means to an end. The means is bad players(trolls or not, they are undeniably bad) on your team. The end is the 50 percent win rate, or so they wish for. You don't force a troll on someone and then tell him the loss was his fault. It's just not right.
                    Then:

                    Originally posted by BlinkingRiki182 View Post
                    There is absolutely no difference if there are assasins in the game or not. It's an initiator item that can be done in every situation. Or maybe you like the daedalus line with 70% winrate?
                    And BANG, BEHOLD:

                    Originally posted by hoveringmover View Post
                    At least that item gives damage which has synergy with Fiery Soul. Bluff Dagger doesn't. But I'm not here to argue strategy or tactics with lesser players and to teach them how to play the game. I can do that in game...oh wait, no I can't, the chat ban system won't let me, will it?
                    I get the funnies:

                    Originally posted by BlinkingRiki182 View Post
                    Lol, dude you are just ridiculously funny. Claiming that Lina should be played as carry makes me laugh my ass off xD. You have a lot to learn before you even come close to my level of play dude
                    He gets angry:

                    Originally posted by hoveringmover View Post
                    And let me guess, despite your user name you are completely incapable of landing half-way decent smokescreens, right? A supporting skill. You are clearly a troll, and are the poison of the game. The kind of player that thinks all heroes cannot play any role whatsoever. More important than anything is what are the heroes your opponents are using? That should factor in what you are able to do, even more so than what your allied heroes are.
                    Another player steps in to explain to the FOOL what blink dagger is used for:

                    Originally posted by Noya View Post
                    You think Blink Dagger on a hero who has initiation-positioning based skills is bad and somewhat complain you are getting matched with bad players? Please

                    Blink Dagger is fine on Lina if snowballing (Lothar's better in some situations if you know what you are doing tho, but normally too expensive).

                    Bloodstone on Lina is just beyond trash, if you are so concerned about surviving that PA, you get a Ghost Scepter and/or Forcestaff (less useful for you, can be useful after she uses Abyssal on your carry). If you somehow manage to get farm for a 5k+ item, you get a Hex.

                    If you are gonna flame itembuilds, do it right.
                    But NO:

                    Originally posted by hoveringmover View Post
                    If you're going to pretend to be pro at a hero, do it right. You didn't impress me or anyone who isn't already a bad player.
                    Then everyone pretty much give up:

                    Originally posted by Noya View Post
                    ^Nice arguments sir, keep making a fool of yourself.

                    Yes, my dear forum members. Respect hoveringmovers lenghty posts because he is skilled as sh*t
                    Last edited by BlinkingRiki182; 07-15-2013, 03:56 PM.
                    https://soundcloud.com/blinkingriki182

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      This matchmaking is 100% irrefutably irrevocably inconcievably FUCKED

                      why after 1000 games of dota am I with all these 20 win shitters who sit there talking shit all game. I'm embarrassed for valve over how bad this mm is. I'm playing with horrifically bad players who have played less than a tenth of the amount of games I have and they are all talking shit non stop. It's insane. Valve have fucked this game up so much I am dumbfounded

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        you should read a few pots above that some pudge with 20-30 wins destroying a storm with 1600 wins. wins dont prove anything
                        Originally posted by sea View Post
                        This matchmaking is 100% irrefutably irrevocably inconcievably FUCKED

                        why after 1000 games of dota am I with all these 20 win shitters who sit there talking shit all game. I'm embarrassed for valve over how bad this mm is. I'm playing with horrifically bad players who have played less than a tenth of the amount of games I have and they are all talking shit non stop. It's insane. Valve have fucked this game up so much I am dumbfounded

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          vlads is one of the best aura items of the game and with so many meele heroes some1 had to buy a vlad but as i see ur team has no support hero or a hero willing to buy 1 so he took it upon himself when ur playing with shit heroes in ur team item builds can b adjusted ive seen alchemists with blink daggers and mechanisms. no item is particulary bad in dota everything suits some scenerio. you always need to keep an open mind about sutff.
                          Originally posted by ValveFixUrGame View Post
                          Valve does your whole dev team consist of icefrog? You've done nothing with the game except this terrible non-matchmaking system and hats.
                          I have 1000+ games of experience yet I play snipers who buy Vlads, What are you doing?
                          Takes 5 min to get random people together as well, why does it take that long when you obviously aren't pairing up people on my level.
                          I know this is another Matchmaking thread but Valve is just not doing anything about it so I need to say something. Valve fix ur game before its too late.

                          Also LoLs matchmaking system matches you up against ppl ur lvl as well as taking 30 sec, how riot beats you in this area I have no idea but they are.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by coolcows View Post
                            vlads is one of the best aura items of the game and with so many meele heroes some1 had to buy a vlad but as i see ur team has no support hero or a hero willing to buy 1 so he took it upon himself when ur playing with shit heroes in ur team item builds can b adjusted ive seen alchemists with blink daggers and mechanisms. no item is particulary bad in dota everything suits some scenerio. you always need to keep an open mind about sutff.
                            I like how you justify sniper buying vlads.
                            Judging from your post guys you are pretty bad (esp hoveringmover who thinks blink dagger for Lina is useless and daedalus is the better item).
                            Why don't you (coolcows) and hoveringmover gather a stack and meet me in dota2? I would like to teach you noobs a lesson. Then I will post your humiliation in this forum. What do you say?
                            https://soundcloud.com/blinkingriki182

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              uve got such a narrow mind about item purchases and team composition of who can play support and who can carry and what items one can choose. item purchases are relative and not every item suits every hero in all of the situations. i might b good or i might not b but i understand one simple fact from all these years of playing dota ull face differenct situations and different play styles u need to adapt to in game deviate from whats written in guides thats what makes dota fun.
                              Originally posted by BlinkingRiki182 View Post
                              I like how you justify sniper buying vlads.
                              Judging from your post guys you are pretty bad (esp hoveringmover who thinks blink dagger for Lina is useless and daedalus is the better item).
                              Why don't you (coolcows) and hoveringmover gather a stack and meet me in dota2? I would like to teach you noobs a lesson. Then I will post your humiliation in this forum. What do you say?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                ok tell me what other item brings u more benefit than vlads in the given match scenerio. a 2k item gives 15 % damage in an aoe to 4 heroes life steal and bonus armour .
                                Originally posted by BlinkingRiki182 View Post
                                I like how you justify sniper buying vlads.
                                Judging from your post guys you are pretty bad (esp hoveringmover who thinks blink dagger for Lina is useless and daedalus is the better item).
                                Why don't you (coolcows) and hoveringmover gather a stack and meet me in dota2? I would like to teach you noobs a lesson. Then I will post your humiliation in this forum. What do you say?

                                Comment

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