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How can u call this matchmaking valve?

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  • hoveringmover
    replied
    Originally posted by Dreams-Visions View Post
    To take this further,

    Tiers are completely fluid from one hero to the next for most players. That 2 Slark may be a 3-4 with his main heroes, but decided to play Slark that game who he's played very little. Same with the Axe. Hero abilities vary so much, it's impossible to make an assumption on someones skill based on one showing with any given hero. That's the real challenge of matchmaking. We play well with some heroes, but all but those on the "5" level will feed (or simply struggle) with others. Whether you pick a hero that you can perform on the 3-4 level with in a game vs a hero that you're more likely to give a 1-2 level effort with can't be predicted by matchmaking.

    It's a really interesting quandary.
    That's why most pros are only 3 and not 4 or 5. Yeah, there are a lot more calculations that need to be done. What we have before us is the work of very lazy mathematicians. Also, when i say we must look at more of his matches, that implies that I'm referring to looking at how he does with other heroes. Just in case that wasn't clear.
    Last edited by hoveringmover; 07-22-2013, 02:37 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kumori
    replied
    1. It isn't free. I have given Valve $75 USD
    Regardless how much you pour into the shop won't make the game less free.
    That's about choice.
    You can have the game for free... or you can "donate" some money to valve.

    Leave a comment:


  • Slim.NZ
    replied
    Originally posted by Goregash View Post
    What happened to "everyone was a newb once!"? You don't get to pick the players in COD, MW, BF, WOW. Yet no one complains in their community about shitty players being matched up. And those are games people actually paid money for. How conceited can you be to keep tossing in topics like this for a game that has been Developed and brought on the market for FREE?
    1. It isn't free. I have given Valve $75 USD... Now I don't expect anything in return for that. At the time, I was a) so impressed with the game that I wanted to support it, and b) fucking loved Itsy and the axe announcer pack cracks me up. However, I want to keep giving them money, but I won't, because I no longer enjoy the game. They have done something that has affected my enjoyment of the game, I have left the game, they no longer get my money. Very simple economics.

    2. You cannot compare this game to fps, which you have tried to do.
    - If server stacked, you leave and find new server.
    - FPS online skills largely universal, and a hell of a lot simpler. I am a very, very good fps player.
    -Teams are much larger, often 32v32 in BF and generally around 10v10 in COD. There is no penalty for dying. There is no such thing as feeding. There is no instant reward for getting a kill in fps which widens the gap between teams. New players will not lose the game for the team in the same way as they will in DOTA.

    3. People keep making these posts to try and get the message across to Valve that we are fucking leaving, and taking our money with us. Not only that, but we aren't bringing our friends into it. None of us are convincing friends that play LoL to convert. We aren't introducing new players. IF someone asked me what it was like now, I'd say that the match making is an abortion and not to play it until we hear something from the developers.

    4. The very fact that it is free to play means they have to get it right if they want to make money. EA and Activsion don't give a single fuck if you're not happy with their game. They have your money already. They don't care if you stop playing. They know they'll sell a bazillion copies of their next title regardless. Valve MUST care what we think to make money. They need us to care enough about what our heroes look like to spend money on sets. They want us to be excited about couriers and HUDs. They want us to spend $5 here and there on keys for chests. They need to develop interest in the pro scene to sell passes and attract sponsers etc. Whats more, they are competing with LoL - and established game with a massively larger player base = larger audience = larger income. Valve need to get this right. It has to be perfect to work. What you have now is an aborted foetus on the ground. Just look at all the threads! And, we are just the people being vocal about it... imagine how many people this week alone that have tried this game only to be absolutely stomped every game by people with thousands of hours of experience... what are they going to think?

    5. Dota is the only game I have every played that punishes you for leaving a match. And that is the crux. If I have a SCII game, and it matches me against a masters player for some reason, I have the legitimate option to gg out straight away for no penalty, or to try and cheese him and win/lose in 5mins. DOTA: you are stuck in game for half an hour regardless... and given the piss poor sportsmanship of 90% of community, most players bask in their stompage and draw the game out as long as possible.

    IN summary: You are wrong, completely.

    Leave a comment:


  • katsaroulhs
    replied
    Originally posted by Craig View Post
    Even experience isn't measured well by win count on a single DotA2 account. Consider:

    * Other DotA2 accounts
    * DotA1 experience
    * HoN experience
    * LoL experience
    * Experience of other games
    * Experience of using a mouse and keyboard
    * Experience of understanding complex problems
    * ... [please add your own]
    I agree, but is it normal to match a lvl 90/1600 wins with a lvl 1/3 wins? I mean you say it takes a hidden mmr to judge right? Ok I just started an account and I played with a friend of mine that is really good. We played ten games and we managed to win all of them even though I have no idea how to play this game. But I played 10 games (my only games) and I won all of them. Now I have a 100% win ratio and my mmr should be golden, so I get matched up with some guy that 50% win ratio, which is normal but much worse than mine (so his mmr is the same I assume) BUT he has 4000 games and won 2000 of them. Yeah it seems so normal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Craig
    replied
    Originally posted by Slim.NZ View Post
    No - But a high level of wins does equal a high level of experience. And do you know what experience brings? Better skill and item builds, better hero selection, ie counters, understanding of abilities and the relationships between heroes - combos etc, better skill at last hitting, simply from practice, better communication and team work, better instincts of when to fight and when to run etc.

    People who claim that wins is irrelevant are ridiculous in the extreme. There is a direct correlation between experience (ie games played) and skill. Now, I will admit that this correlation drops off the more wins you have. For instance, someone with 800 wins could quite happily compete with, and play with, someone that has, say, 1500 wins. The more experienced player can instruct on advanced tactics and not have to worry that the support will take farm, needlessly feed, or build ridiculous items. The issue with the current mms is that people with >20 wins are commonly being matched up with people with 500+ wins. This difference in experience is insurmountable - it is as simple as that.

    Countering this debate with rare examples of new players beating experienced players is ridiculous. They are the exceptions to the current situation.
    Even experience isn't measured well by win count on a single DotA2 account. Consider:

    * Other DotA2 accounts
    * DotA1 experience
    * HoN experience
    * LoL experience
    * Experience of other games
    * Experience of using a mouse and keyboard
    * Experience of understanding complex problems
    * ... [please add your own]
    Last edited by Craig; 07-16-2013, 04:09 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Goregash
    replied
    Originally posted by ValveFixUrGame View Post
    Takes 5 min to get random people together as well, why does it take that long when you obviously aren't pairing up people on my level.
    When it took 5 minutes. It is indeed obvious you didn't get paired with your own level. That's also basically what the Match Making tells you. Expanding search area means they are dragging in higher/lower skilled players as well. Also Chunkyboy's argument is really valid. I play with friends that have over 700 wins and I have only 100 wins. That's how you get this mixture of different skill level. I'm not that much worse than my friend but there is a difference nonetheless.

    What happened to "everyone was a newb once!"? You don't get to pick the players in COD, MW, BF, WOW. Yet no one complains in their community about shitty players being matched up. And those are games people actually paid money for. How conceited can you be to keep tossing in topics like this for a game that has been Developed and brought on the market for FREE?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bashtime
    replied
    I'm tired of this shitthreads. Yea you sometimes get assholes and complete noobs in your team. Valve must have noticed this. Why you still create this threads. This flooding is annoying

    Leave a comment:


  • Slim.NZ
    replied
    Look, I do my best to teach new players when it is possible, ie they listen and speak english. But I am sick to shit of games being lost before they start. When the gap in experience/skill is so vast that there is literally no possible way to win, regardless of hero selection, team work, communication etc etc. And the problem I have is that there are too many of these games. A 20 win hero, which I played with yesterday, has no chance against a 1500 win player. Ever. And how can I, a 270 win player (who also has no chance), coach a 20 win player against him? Now lets say 9 of us were around the 200-300 win range, and then we had a single 20 win hero. Absolutely, I'd spend most of the game trying to help him, and I frequently do, and I wouldn't mind losing. But when you are 10 minutes into the game, and it is 12 - 1 and you're looking at your 8th straight loss, then yeah, Valve has fucked up and doesn't deserve any of my money.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kumori
    replied
    Now I don't mean to be offensive, but if you think that the difference between a >100 win player and a 500+ win player is irrelevant, then you are a fucking moron.
    I think the difference is very important.
    However, i think the difference lies more with their capability to analyze / willingness to learn rather than their wins and I rather not to any hasty judgements based on wins.
    Instead... I rather play the game, try my best and try to talk and coordinate.
    If we lose, I think of why we lose.
    if we win, great.

    never in the thoughtprocess do I ever think.
    "holy crap, how many wins do these people have?"
    Why?
    It's irrelevant. The situation and what's happening is not. Maybe that's why I don't look it up that often. Because finding out how many wins someone have DOESN'T HELP ME AT ALL!

    So, sure... you can think of me as a moron. I will just think I handle the situation a lot better than you... thus improving my play a lot more than you. While you just blame the matchmaking system. no offence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Slim.NZ
    replied
    ^well, I don't know what servers you guys play on, but this has happened to me literally nearly every game I've played in the last 2 weeks. I have 270 wins. I had a game when I was the most experienced player on my team. 3 had >100 wins. On other team - 1500 win player and the rest had 500+ wins. The issue is that this isn't a one off odd occurrence anymore, but nearly every single game. I posted in the misc forum that I have actually uninstalled the game, hoping that Valve might pay attention as I have spent about $75 on items, and was happily going to spend more.

    Now I don't mean to be offensive, but if you think that the difference between a >100 win player and a 500+ win player is irrelevant, then you are a fucking moron.

    Thus I go with that wins ain't that important... and if you get matched with 20 win people, there must be some other reason for it.
    Yes - the reason is that Valve couldn't match make their way out of a paper bag. The issues that are existing at the moment are due to nothing more than an inept broken system. 4 - 5 weeks ago, crazy match making and stomps were the minority of games. I thought it was crazy to see a 700 win player in a game that I was playing. Now I see differences of a 1000 wins between players. Something has changed in the past few weeks, and it has broken the game.

    And if you spend your time blaming on someone and say "it was his low wins fault" or any other excuse you rob yourself of the experience. Because you don't analyze or think what's went wrong.
    I'm gonna make an assumption and say that ALOT of the players who are pro-win uses the low win player as an excuse instead of learning.
    Here, you are plain wrong. Your answer is indicative of the Valve White Knights - "You're just bad, don't blame the mmr, Valve are basically clones of Jesus". This post http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...l=1#post659866 is the most eloquent and best response I have come across. It simply states that this is a 5 man team game, and one player can easily lose the game for the team no matter how well an individual plays.
    Last edited by Slim.NZ; 07-16-2013, 03:51 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kumori
    replied
    No - But a high level of wins does equal a high level of experience. And do you know what experience brings? Better skill and item builds, better hero selection, ie counters, understanding of abilities and the relationships between heroes - combos etc, better skill at last hitting, simply from practice, better communication and team work, better instincts of when to fight and when to run etc.

    People who claim that wins is irrelevant are ridiculous in the extreme.
    I think it's safe to say that the experience you talk about is irrelevant most of the times.
    Cause in the end. A player with lots of wins doesn't guarantee that he is good, same as someone with low wins is guaranteed to be bad.
    So why judge people based on that?

    Also, for experience to have any value... you have to learn from it.
    And if you spend your time blaming on someone and say "it was his low wins fault" or any other excuse you rob yourself of the experience. Because you don't analyze or think what's went wrong.
    I'm gonna make an assumption and say that ALOT of the players who are pro-win uses the low win player as an excuse instead of learning.

    With that said.
    What you say is true for the experience part...
    I just don't think it's as importance as people make it out to be, especially in dota 2. (not that experience isn't worth anything, it's worth alot, I just don't think alot of people learn from it).

    And personally I have yet to be matched with 20 wins people.
    I think lowest is 100 wins... the 3 times I have actually checked. And yet the matches have been fair most of the times, as long as you don't get a cranky player who destroys it on purpose because someone did something he didn't like.
    Also, when I have checked the amount of wins havn't been close at all when it comes to the team sum.

    Thus I go with that wins ain't that important... and if you get matched with 20 win people, there must be some other reason for it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gimatria
    replied
    Originally posted by Slim.NZ View Post
    No - But a high level of wins does equal a high level of experience. And do you know what experience brings? Better skill and item builds, better hero selection, ie counters, understanding of abilities and the relationships between heroes - combos etc, better skill at last hitting, simply from practice, better communication and team work, better instincts of when to fight and when to run etc.

    People who claim that wins is irrelevant are ridiculous in the extreme. There is a direct correlation between experience (ie games played) and skill. Now, I will admit that this correlation drops off the more wins you have. For instance, someone with 800 wins could quite happily compete with, and play with, someone that has, say, 1500 wins. The more experienced player can instruct on advanced tactics and not have to worry that the support will take farm, needlessly feed, or build ridiculous items. The issue with the current mms is that people with >20 wins are commonly being matched up with people with 500+ wins. This difference in experience is insurmountable - it is as simple as that.

    Countering this debate with rare examples of new players beating experienced players is ridiculous. They are the exceptions to the current situation.
    Yes, it means they have an increased experience over new players. But even then more experience does not equal higher skills. I have never ever seen anybody with less then 20 wins in any of my games, and i have only played 400 games, and roughly have 52% win. So I'm not great, but I still don't get matched up with complete beginners. Sure, some people I play with are pretty bad, but their skill level will not chance with the number of games they play.
    One thing I learned from playing HoN, where you could see peoples stats, is that it does not matter how many games people play. They can get more experienced and can get more used to certain heroes or situations, but if they're bad players, they will stay bad players and make bad decisions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Slim.NZ
    replied
    Originally posted by Gimatria View Post
    High number of wins does not equal a high skill level...
    No - But a high level of wins does equal a high level of experience. And do you know what experience brings? Better skill and item builds, better hero selection, ie counters, understanding of abilities and the relationships between heroes - combos etc, better skill at last hitting, simply from practice, better communication and team work, better instincts of when to fight and when to run etc.

    People who claim that wins is irrelevant are ridiculous in the extreme. There is a direct correlation between experience (ie games played) and skill. Now, I will admit that this correlation drops off the more wins you have. For instance, someone with 800 wins could quite happily compete with, and play with, someone that has, say, 1500 wins. The more experienced player can instruct on advanced tactics and not have to worry that the support will take farm, needlessly feed, or build ridiculous items. The issue with the current mms is that people with >20 wins are commonly being matched up with people with 500+ wins. This difference in experience is insurmountable - it is as simple as that.

    Countering this debate with rare examples of new players beating experienced players is ridiculous. They are the exceptions to the current situation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gimatria
    replied
    High number of wins does not equal a high skill level...

    Leave a comment:


  • katsaroulhs
    replied
    Originally posted by Dreams-Visions View Post
    *their.

    me thinks summer school would be good for you instead of Doto.
    That's all you can do? Summer school for one error? Is English my native language? Are you a mindless Valve Drone?

    Edit: To help you out a bit - Yes,No,No,YES.

    Leave a comment:

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