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Why DotA 2 MM System Fails - High Level Perspective

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  • Why DotA 2 MM System Fails - High Level Perspective

    Here is exactly why your DotA 2 MM system fails Valve, it's pretty simple. This is coming from someone who plays on the first 10 pages regularly against all sorts of nonsensical players like Clairvoyance, Merlini, Mikey, Blitz, LGD.Int players on USW, various other DotA pros/semi-pros/personalities.


    The Dota 2 MM system is built around the fact that players will be playing their hardest, and as such are playing optimally. If both said teams are playing optimally, then you're going to have an even 50% chance for both teams to win. Here's where the MM system fails; it's not really the MM systems fault at all. The reason why you have such one sided games, is predominantly because of the fact that weaker players attempt to take high impact roles, forcing either bad team compositions, or forcing a stronger player into playing a role that isn't as important in public games.

    First and foremost, let me preface that supports are extremely important in high level/competitive games. At the IHL level, if you don't have good supports, your team will basically get utterly crushed due to lack of wards, dynamic movement for ganks, TP support, pooling of regen, etc. However, supports are only important if the high impact roles of mid/carry/offlaner are played properly and optimally. These roles are extremely important to be played properly, because should any of these roles be played bad, it can be cascaded into a very bad game. As such, in most pub games of League, HoN, etc. the higher rated players tend to take the high impact roles, especially if there is a big discrepancy in ratings. The reason why is because these roles require strong mechanics, especially the mid lane. In pub games, your mid/carry has to be strong. if he is not and gets fed on, it is extremely easy for you to just lose the game and get snowballed on. This is exactly why various players have complained about bad matches; lower skilled players will take high impact positions, then lose when the MM system is expecting them to play optimally. You aren't playing optimally though if you are sending weaker players out onto mechanically demanding and high skill positions.

    Mid is pretty much the easiest example of what I'm talking about. If you have a discrepancy in skill levels between the two mid players, it's going to be real hard for the weaker mid to do anything, and as such he will likely not only lose the lane, but he will also make multiple mistakes and get fed on. The stronger player now not only has an immense experience advantage, he also has complete control of the runes. Even if you deny him rune access, he still has 2-3 levels on the side lanes, and as such can still easily gank and control the map, choking the opposing team from gold/exp. This is especially true when the weaker mid is losing a match-up he should win, for example he's losing to Pudge as Silencer; if he dies to Pudge (which he shouldn't at all), he is basically going to get fed on completely the entire time. This in turns allows Pudge a quick level 7 + rune control, which means he's free to run around and camp other lanes now.


    The biggest offense is when you have a dual que paired up with a 3 stack; now you need to figure out who is going where, but there's going to obviously be arguments because one player wants to play one hero, and the other player wants this hero. So now you're gonna run into a situation where you likely have optimal picks, but do not have the correct assignments due to lack of knowing who really should be playing on what position. The MM system did the correct thing; it paired up the correct players against each other. However, the players are assigning themselves sub-optimal positions most of the time, resulting in the crappy MM games you have currently.
    Last edited by allbusiness; 07-21-2013, 11:49 PM.

  • #2
    mm favours noobs and kinda forces the 50%. I wished i was the player with lowest mmr on my team always even if i played against way better people, then you could atleast learn and improve instead of trying to carry braindead monkeys.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by MukenTuken View Post
      mm favours noobs and kinda forces the 50%. I wished i was the player with lowest mmr on my team always even if i played against way better people, then you could atleast learn and improve instead of trying to carry braindead monkeys.
      It's not that it forces 50%; it's that the MM assumes that everyone is going to play optimally, and is playing to win. As such, the win % should average out to 50%. That's not the case though, because not everyone wants to play optimally at their skill level, nor do they always play to win. Some people just play for fun and completely sub optimally, which completely screws the MM. It is only compounded by the fact that you cannot even properly assign roles; it only makes sense for your stronger players to pick high impact heroes/roles while the weaker player picks up on a support role. However, that really can't happen because of invisible MMR/ELO. As such, you have completely one sided stomps most of the time due to bad role assignment.

      Issues really arise when you have mixed 'stacks.' You will notice that in a 5 man party, you almost never have issues with one sided games unless one party clearly out classes the other, or one party just picked completely dumb heroes. The biggest issue is when you have 3 stack/2 stacks together or with solo que players. You almost always end up with completely sub optimal role assignment, which pretty much always ends up in a 100% stomp. 100% solo que games tend not to be stomps for the same rason; the variance in skill isn't as high, and as such the players are much closer in skill. This leads to much more fair games, and much more fun games. In mixed party games, you just end up in a complete shitfest because of the high variance in skill, and the suboptimal role assignment.

      I looked through my own game history, as well as games that have been posted in the MM forum. I've noticed that most of the time, the 'stomp' games are a combination of mixed parties with high variance in skill levels, with also very bad role assignments. High variance in skill levels is fine as long as you're defending your weaker players by putting them into a passive role or into a non high impact role. The issue arises when low skill players take on high skill roles unknowingly against high skill players.
      Last edited by allbusiness; 07-22-2013, 12:03 AM.

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      • #4
        Welcome to pub games. They're pubs.

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        • #5
          so tl;dr is that because people don't follow an almost-AI-like assignment of 113 (or as a certain other game go, 2-1-1-1) therefore it's the system's fault...?

          then why don't you try suggest a better system, one that apparently is so clairevoyant that it can perfectly knows who's going to which lane and what type of hero they'll pick?
          Every time someone make a false report.
          Making people's losses feel worse with just my name (don't ask me how it work, I certainly don't)

          Currently observed Orb(Unique Attack Modifiers), Critical, and Bash interactions for DotA2

          To:
          People who cry MM isn't fair: Maybe you're not as great as you make yourself to be.
          People who wants surrender: It exists, but I'm not teaching you how to do it.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by RoflCat View Post
            so tl;dr is that because people don't follow an almost-AI-like assignment of 113 (or as a certain other game go, 2-1-1-1) therefore it's the system's fault...?

            then why don't you try suggest a better system, one that apparently is so clairevoyant that it can perfectly knows who's going to which lane and what type of hero they'll pick?
            Its almost like Allpick MM is like WC3 bnet pubs

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            • #7
              Originally posted by allbusiness View Post
              If both said teams are playing optimally, then you're going to have an even 50% chance for both teams to win. Here's where the MM system fails; it's not really the MM systems fault at all. The reason why you have such one sided games, is predominantly because of the fact that weaker players attempt to take high impact roles, forcing either bad team compositions, or forcing a stronger player into playing a role that isn't as important in public games.
              As one who has also made more than a few appearances on the first 5 pages of the Live tab, I agree with the quoted (which more or less is the theme of your post).

              And as you said, it's not the MM system's fault. As I've said now countless times, MM can't be expected to account for what your group of 5 does with their picks after they're put together on a team. If you want to play with 5 carries and try your luck, MM allows that. If you want to play your worst hero for "practice" and end up feeding, MM can't be blamed for that or asked to account for that possibility. If you don't want to buy wards against a ganking mid, or a courier....go right ahead and don't.

              A man that may be a "Very High" caliber Invoker may be only a "Normal" level of Timbersaw. But guess what? He may feel like playing Timbersaw that night. In its current iteration, there's no way MM can anticipate or expect you to play heroes you've never played or don't play much or fill roles you don't normally fill if given the option. As you said, it expects you to play heroes that earned you your Very High placement.

              Just as your post provided no recommendations or solutions, I too have none. My ideas would only serve to heavily fragment the player base to the extent that matchmaking queues would quadruple in length of time. Ain't nobody got time fa dat. So my recommendation is to simply not take the game so seriously unless you're going to play Captain's Mode. Do your best to win, but don't get salty if you get rofflestomped.

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              • #8
                Well the fact that ppl have different skill per hero can be fixed by having different MMR per hero or category of heroes like support carry ganker etc...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by k3nsha View Post
                  Well the fact that ppl have different skill per hero can be fixed by having different MMR per hero or category of heroes like support carry ganker etc...
                  It's a nice idea but seems impossible to implement well. Since if players have seperate MMRs for heroes or roles. The only way that data is useful is to make players choose a role before queueing. Then we'd have 30 minute mid queues and support insta-queues. Not to mention how abusable the system would be. Queue for support, go mid anyway. A lot of things are good ideas but impossible to implement unfortunately .

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Shaella View Post
                    Its almost like Allpick MM is like WC3 bnet pubs
                    you mean they aren't directly equivalent? could have fooled me! /eyeroll

                    its not like AP games are called 'pub' games for no reason.


                    Originally posted by k3nsha View Post
                    Well the fact that ppl have different skill per hero can be fixed by having different MMR per hero or category of heroes like support carry ganker etc...
                    or you can just get good, expect nothing and carry your bad team. then you can be pleasantly surprised when you get good pubs you carry you instead. that's the only time you get to relax when you want to win.

                    blame yourself first ALWAYS. ALWAYS ask yourself what you could have done better, even if you can only blame someone else. learn every lesson you can from every loss and every win. maybe then you wont need to ask for the game to hold your hand anymore.
                    Last edited by Meiun; 07-22-2013, 03:50 AM.
                    -----------------------------------

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Shaella View Post
                      Welcome to pub games. They're pubs.
                      How odd, millions of people play LoL pubs and don't have to deal with leavers/trolls/griefers/terrible matchmaking/automatic mutes because "they're pubs".

                      When the majority of your audience plays a certain mode, you had better support it, not laugh at it because "it's pubs".

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Enai Siaion View Post
                        How odd, millions of people play LoL pubs and don't have to deal with leavers/trolls/griefers/terrible matchmaking/automatic mutes because "they're pubs".

                        When the majority of your audience plays a certain mode, you had better support it, not laugh at it because "it's pubs".
                        Yes yes LoL super awesome. We get it. Grass greener on the other la di da. Maybe one should search your nick and the EU LoL forums but this would derail the thread.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by abc0815 View Post
                          Yes yes LoL super awesome. We get it. Grass greener on the other la di da. Maybe one should search your nick and the EU LoL forums but this would derail the thread.
                          I think he actually has a valid point and you dont. Grass greener on the other la di da does not count as a valid point, sry
                          https://soundcloud.com/blinkingriki182

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by abc0815 View Post
                            Yes yes LoL super awesome. We get it. Grass greener on the other la di da. Maybe one should search your nick and the EU LoL forums but this would derail the thread.
                            I'm a customer, not a fanboi. I play the game that best meets my requirements, two of which are "can be played solo" and "doesn't throw casuals and tryhards into the same match". Dota fanbois typically overrate gameplay and underrate the importance of, you know, not telling one's customers to fuck off because they're not in a professional team. Yes, Dota has good gameplay, but that doesn't make up for everything Valve messed up.

                            When a game displeases me, I usually just bin it and move on with life without looking back, so be glad I care enough about its future potential to try and get Valve to make things better.

                            In LoL "pubs" (blind pick) everyone assumes everyone else is there to goof around, so the level of rage is limited. In ranked play, not playing to win is reportable and rightly so. Dota just throws both together resulting in an unprecedented amount of flaming, adds an automated mute system to (fail to) curb flaming, doesn't implement anything to strive for because making wins mean something might lead to flaming (while ignoring the fact that people who play to win will now end up in your games because they have nowhere else to go), and then calls it "just pubs" and tells you to go find 4 friends who play Dota or gtfo.

                            Thanks for avoiding my actual point by throwing out a personal attack, by the way.
                            Last edited by Enai Siaion; 07-22-2013, 04:55 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BlinkingRiki182 View Post
                              I think he actually has a valid point and you dont. Grass greener on the other la di da does not count as a valid point, sry
                              But its not the reality. Ontop he makes the same complains on the LoL forum while praising Dota2. Textbook Hypocrite

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