Remove 'random hero' from AP matchmaking

[Tevinhead]

It's hard to comment on if the matchmaking is broken or not because usually there are huge issues with team composition problems that come into play before I can even judge team skill. Over 50% of the time I feel like games are decided in the picks. Whether it's a whole team refusing to pick until the other team does so they can counter-pick as best they can or your last 2 pickers pressing the random button and completely ruining the game for you.

How many times have you had 4 picks done, things look good. You have a mid, an offlaner, a carry, a jungler.. then suddenly, RANDOM SPECTRE. Your chances of winning the game just dropped significantly.

I think with improved in-game guidelines for team compositions and the removal of the 'random hero' button. Matchmaking would feel A LOT less volatile.

Edit: Here's a more comprehensive reasoning for my suggestion.

People are complaining that matchmaking sucks. The general consensus seems to be that far too many matches are imbalanced, resulting in either getting stomped or stomping in most of the matches. From what we've learned, matchmaking is elo based and from examples we've been given, in terms of matching player elo the system is working reasonably well. Despite this, there is a very big lack of consistency in the quality or 'balance' of most games.

Why? As Valve themselves have said a lot of factors have a big impact on team performance and match outcome. Including stacks, player mood, team communication, player's familiarity of hero they are using, player mistakes, ping, team composition etc.
The more variables there are, the harder it is to create a more consistent experience.

Giving players the option to random a hero, is just adding a whole other level to that variability. Removing a variable would by definition, reduce the number of variables. And if the number of variable are reduced? The consistency of games would improve.

Add to this that a decent number of games in Dota are pretty much lost and won at the picking stage. It just feels counter-intuitive (or 'silly') to give players an option that completely forfeits such an important aspect of Dota. Teamplay and composition should be encouraged, offering a way to veto it is bad for the game.

So, I am suggesting that we leave randoming for 'All Random' mode. Remove it from AP. And provide resources, incentives and/or features that encourage players to take composition into account. In hopes that it will lead to a much high consistency of game quality.

[slugworth]

No. Randoming in an all-pick game is by far the funnest mode. Not to mention its how you get better at dota.

If people care about winning enough, they will usually pick/repick the last 2 hero's into something that's need. (what I do)

[Tevinhead]

If you really wanna random, you can play all-random.

If people care about winning enough, they will usually pick/repick the last 2 hero's into something that's need. (what I do)

I think you're totally missing the point. I am saying that the 'random factor' and bad team compositions are the bigger issue than any MM problems. Removing random from AP and educating players on composition would lead to less volatility and matchmaking would feel a lot better. Random has no place in AP really, it's totally counter-intuitive in a team game where picks and composition are so important.

Maybe even removing 'random gold' would help things. I'm sure a lot of people random purely for the extra starting gold. It's like, not only do they not take their team or the other team into consideration when picking 'random' but they get rewarded for this too.

[Shaella]

I think we're all taking AP pubs a little too seriously

[Tevinhead]

I think we're all taking AP pubs a little too seriously

Speak for yourself please. 90% of the dota I play is AP pubs, of course I'm going to care about my playing experience in them.

[wachon1992]

No. Randoming in an all-pick game is by far the funnest mode. Not to mention its how you get better at dota.

If people care about winning enough, they will usually pick/repick the last 2 hero's into something that's need. (what I do)

you must be new to dota then.

its recommended that the first 2 picks can be a random and base on those randoms you build up your team. things start to go to shit when you need an offlaner and the last guy randoms a void or sf or anything that has no oportunity to offlane and more against a trilane.

also ppl seem to random just because of the bonus gold and then inmediatly ask for swap if they dont know the hero. 200 gold(or 100 if u swap) wont make u win a lane if u are a bad player anyway or if that trilane is just impossible for you to handle. i rather have smart picking than just randoming for " fun". if you wanna have fun by playing a random hero u can pretty easily check ALL RANDOM mode and go have fun there.

there is a reason why u cant random on single draft and random draft(i dont consider not picking as randoming because you dnt get the extra 200 gold)

imho they should remove randoming from ALL PICK or remove the bonus 200 gold you get by randoming.

[Shaella]

Speak for yourself please. 90% of the dota I play is AP pubs, of course I'm going to care about my playing experience in them.

I know

But its an AP pub.

You're taking it too seriously.

[ILY.BBE]

How about no?

You don't understand, 200 extra gold is actually helpful early game. 800 more regen (salve), or 400 more mana regen (clarity), but I won't go there. The main reason of random gold is for boots. <33

It's always been a part of dota, and forever will be, you must be new. No one ever complained about this before back in Dota 1, not our problem you can't adapt to the situation.

[Tevinhead]

I know

But its an AP pub.

You're taking it too seriously.

What? Are you trolling?

Of course I take AP pubs seriously, I play them a lot. I think I would lose interest in Dota extremely quickly if I didn't take my games seriously to an extent.

[Shaella]

What? Are you trolling?

Of course I take AP pubs seriously, I play them a lot. I think I would lose interest in Dota extremely quickly if I didn't take my games seriously to an extent.

I get it.

But its an AP pub.

Its like claiming to be a hardcore gamer and using a mac.

by their definition, AP pubs are nonserious games. They're for -fun-

CM is for SRS.

[Tevinhead]

200g does little to overcome bad team compositions. And if you're telling me that you buy boots with random gold, are you sure it's me who is 'new'?

It's always been a part of dota, and forever will be, you must be new. No one ever complained about this before back in Dota 1, not our problem you can't adapt to the situation.

I've played Dota since 6.54. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with my point though. It's not about me being unable to adapt. It's about creating a more consistent quality of games for everyone who uses matchmaking.

[Tevinhead]

I get it.

But its an AP pub.

Its like claiming to be a hardcore gamer and using a mac.

by their definition, AP pubs are nonserious games. They're for -fun-

CM is for SRS.

Except that I didn't claim to be anything. I'm just making a suggestion to improve the AP matchmaking experience. Do you have anything constructive to add?

[ILY.BBE]

Played Dota since 6.14. But that's beside the point.

It's an option broooooo come on lighten up!

Boots first item is best first item. Trust me on this padawan.

[Dreams-Visions]

1.) Always reserve the right to repick.

2.) Go out with as big a party as you can form.

3.) Always reserve the right to repick.


If some dickhead wants to random his pick after you already have 4, you can indeed be screwed. My solutions are above. Wait until everyone on your team has picked if at all possible, and if they do some dumb shit like pick 4 carries, take it for the team and repick whoever you wanted to play to a support. Yea, it won't be who you *wanted* to play (and presumably you selected All Pick because you were in the mood to play specific heroes), but you'll improve the team's chances of winning, which I assume is the larger goal.

But you're right: many games are lost at character select, presuming relatively equal skill across both sides. But more than that, games are lost in item progression. Buying the wrong items kills a team's chances more than anything else. One of my recent games a team more or less threw an early lead because the enemy Weaver AND Naga decided to go radiance vs a team with 3 high HP Strength heroes. In another, a Necrolyte went Radiance instead of a mek/pipe. Not that these aren't viable items on those heroes, but it's not what the team needed to survive the team fights on the horizon. Then there's the whole "I picked a carry but don't understand how to farm" vein of player. The kind that pick Riki or Naga or Weaver and have nothing to show for 30 minutes of game time but a diffusal blade or linken's.

[Tevinhead]

Played Dota since 6.14. But that's beside the point.

It's an option broooooo come on lighten up!

Boots first item is best first item. Trust me on this padawan.

So now my thread has devolved into a boots first discussion. I'm gonna be a bit more comprehensive about my idea then and edit it into my first post.

People are complaining that matchmaking sucks. The general consensus seems to be that far too many matches are imbalanced, resulting in either getting stomped or stomping in most of the matches. From what we've learned, matchmaking is elo based and from examples we've been given, in terms of matching player elo the system is working reasonably well. Despite this, there is a very big lack of consistency in the quality or 'balance' of most games.

Why? As Valve themselves have said a lot of factors have a big impact on team performance and match outcome. Including stacks, player mood, team communication, player's familiarity of hero they are using, player mistakes, ping, team composition etc.
The more variables there are, the harder it is to create a more consistent experience.

Giving players the option to random a hero, is just adding a whole other level to that variability. Removing a variable would by definition, reduce the number of variables. And if the number of variable are reduced? The consistency of games would improve.

Add to this that a decent number of games in Dota are pretty much lost and won at the picking stage. It just feels counter-intuitive (or 'silly') to give players an option that completely forfeits such an important aspect of Dota. Teamplay and composition should be encouraged, offering a way to veto it is bad for the game.

So, I am suggesting that we leave randoming for 'All Random' mode. Remove it from AP. And provide resources, incentives and/or features that encourage players to take composition into account. In hopes that it will lead to a much high consistency of game quality.