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Remove 'random hero' from AP matchmaking

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tevinhead View Post
    Removing a variable would by definition, reduce the number of variables. And if the number of variable are reduced? The consistency of games would improve.
    meh. it would only be a drop in the bucket, bro.

    There's a hero pool of about 100 heroes that can be chosen in any given match, and people may decide to pick heroes they are or are decidedly NOT good with. That is already enough variables to make the results of a match unpredictable. All MM can realistically do is put together people who are all of similar skill based on recent games and let them at it.

    Reserve the right to repick or reserve the right to make friends and only play when they're available to party up.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Tevinhead View Post
      Speak for yourself please. 90% of the dota I play is AP pubs, of course I'm going to care about my playing experience in them.
      stop playing all pick pubs if you want a serious game. this has NEVER been the mode for a serious game. go play CM if you want serious games and not pub stomps. pick the game mode that already gives what you want instead of asking valve to pander to your wants.

      also random has been around forever, its a staple of dota. if you dont like it dont play AP dota. seriously. Its in AP pubs because AP pub games have ALWAYS been the 'casual play' mode. If you dont want to casual then get the hell out of all pick.

      what is with all the people expecting DoTA to spoil them? complaining about having to work for wins, complaining about bad players, complaining about how a game mode that isnt even designed for what they want doesnt give them what they want. i mean really? dota is harsh, just deal with it. if you dont want to work for your wins then just give up on winning. if you want a serious game then dont pick all pick. if you want to get better hit random (that is WHY you get random gold. its 'tutorial' mode.).

      its all really quite simple, you see. this isn't league of forfeit where people are going to praise you for being bad. you're going to be beaten and made to suffer if you do something wrong so get over it. the upside is that if you pick the right mode or play the right way you'll feel really rewarded. if you dont like pain and pleasure levels of punishment and reward dota isnt the game for you.
      Last edited by Meiun; 07-22-2013, 03:14 AM.
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      • #18
        NEVER -1
        Thank you IceFrog, Valve and Dota 2 team for everything you doing for Dota 2 community.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Meiun View Post
          stop playing all pick pubs if you want a serious game. this has NEVER been the mode for a serious game. go play CM if you want serious games and not pub stomps. pick the game mode that already gives what you want instead of asking valve to pander to your wants.

          also random has been around forever, its a staple of dota. if you dont like it dont play AP dota. seriously. Its in AP pubs because AP pub games have ALWAYS been the 'casual play' mode. If you dont want to casual then get the hell out of all pick.
          Except that playing CM only increases the severity of being out-drafted. Since the responsibility of picking a good composition is now solely in the hands of one person. I've tried CM matchmaking, it felt even worse than AP. At least in AP I can pick one good hero.

          Also I'm not demanding anything. I'm pointing out that the real problems with matchmaking imbalances might be elsewhere, offering my opinion and suggesting a way to improve this.

          I welcome you to disagree with me, it's helpful to create discussions on these points. I don't really think that valuing such a vital aspect of the game is being too serious though. I think that normalizing drafting just a little would create more 'FUN' games.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Tevinhead View Post
            Except that playing CM only increases the severity of being out-drafted. Since the responsibility of picking a good composition is now solely in the hands of one person. I've tried CM matchmaking, it felt even worse than AP. At least in AP I can pick one good hero.

            Also I'm not demanding anything. I'm pointing out that the real problems with matchmaking imbalances might be elsewhere, offering my opinion and suggesting a way to improve this.

            I welcome you to disagree with me, it's helpful to create discussions on these points. I don't really think that valuing such a vital aspect of the game is being too serious though. I think that normalizing drafting just a little would create more 'FUN' games.
            except CM has a generally better player base. AP has always been a 'learn to play a hero against real people' mode. it also has always had a generally worse playerbase. it is one of the most looked down upon player bases when it comes to quality. AP is pretty much synonymous with "scrub" and "feeder". although random and single draft are ususally much worse. if you've been playing dota for years then you'd know this. if not then you really should listen to when vets tell you this.

            tagteam and deathmatch both have generally better players as well but neither mode is implemented yet so just wait if you are going to let your anxieties about CM prevent you from playing the mode that's actually designed for serious games.

            There isn't really a lot to discuss. AP is not the mode for what you want. Don't ask valve to pander to you because you want AP to be something it is not. The problem is YOU not random in AP.
            Last edited by Meiun; 07-22-2013, 03:10 AM.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Meiun View Post
              except CM has a generally better player base. AP has always been a 'learn to play a hero against real people' mode. it also has always had a generally worse playerbase. it is one of the most looked down upon player bases when it comes to quality. AP is pretty much synonymous with "scrub" and "feeder". although random and single draft are ususally much worse. if you've been playing dota for years then you'd know this. if not then you really should listen to when vets tell you this.

              tagteam and deathmatch both have generally better players as well but neither mode is implemented yet so just wait if you are going to let your anxieties about CM prevent you from playing the mode that's actually designed for serious games.
              I really have tried CM quite a lot. It's not so much anxiety as actual experience in the mode. It feels like a coin-flip as to whether you will get out-drafted or not. Plus there's the factor of sitting through all the draft, only to be doomed in a disadvantageous game. Similair issues to AP. Except in AP you don't need to invest 10 minutes into starting a game before you can even move your hero.

              Also I disagree with CM having better players. I know a lot of good players, none of them touch pub CM. For the reasons I've stated.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Tevinhead View Post
                I really have tried CM quite a lot. It's not so much anxiety as actual experience in the mode. It feels like a coin-flip as to whether you will get out-drafted or not. Plus there's the factor of sitting through all the draft, only to be doomed in a disadvantageous game. Similair issues to AP. Except in AP you don't need to invest 10 minutes into starting a game before you can even move your hero.

                Also I disagree with CM having better players. I know a lot of good players, none of them touch pub CM. For the reasons I've stated.
                +1 to this.

                People play AP because you get to play the hero you feel like playing with your friends without the elongated start-up times. It's either AP or In House matches among my people.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Tevinhead View Post
                  I really have tried CM quite a lot. It's not so much anxiety as actual experience in the mode. It feels like a coin-flip as to whether you will get out-drafted or not. Plus there's the factor of sitting through all the draft, only to be doomed in a disadvantageous game. Similair issues to AP. Except in AP you don't need to invest 10 minutes into starting a game before you can even move your hero.

                  Also I disagree with CM having better players. I know a lot of good players, none of them touch pub CM. For the reasons I've stated.
                  also the more you complain and make yourself hate parts of the game, the worse you will play. keep your mood pure and objective and you wont have so much of a problem. the people who complain on these forums about match making are a vocal minority and many people on these forums are flaming ragers. go to playdota forums instead for a slightly better balanced dota2 community.

                  the majority of players aren't even intelligent enough to have a standpoint on MM let alone come here to complain about it. the majority of players don't even speak English. don't get ahead of yourself thinking English speakers are anything but a drop in the bucket for the dota community. they're like a nanogram out of a kilogram.

                  i dont have a problem staying between 50 and 53%. i dont have a problem winning whenever i want anywhere below 53%. i also dont expect anything from my team. i play a role that we need on a hero i can play when i want to win. i always build according to game and not cookie cutter. i always play when im in good health and mentally stable enough. i never flame and always discourage it. i do sometimes stack, but usually with people who lose me games. guess what, despite that i have no problems. you know why? because im not terrible. im not a terrible human being and im a decent player who knows what to do when, where and why.

                  i can help my shitty players understand what to do, i can give them space to farm or push. i can make good use of wards, dust and smoke. i am religious about these things. i will buy my supports wards when they are feeding even. this is what you do to win otherwise you don't deserve your win. that isnt even 'working hard'. that is fundamentals of dota.
                  Last edited by Meiun; 07-22-2013, 03:19 AM.
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Meiun View Post
                    also the more you complain and make yourself hate parts of the game, the worse you will play. keep your mood pure and objective and you wont have so much of a problem. the people who complain on these forums about match making are a vocal minority and many people on these forums are flaming ragers. go to playdota forums instead for a slightly better balanced dota2 community.

                    the majority of players aren't even intelligent enough to have a standpoint on MM let alone come here to complain about it. the majority of players don't even speak English. don't get ahead of yourself thinking English speakers are anything but a drop in the bucket for the dota community. they're like a nanogram out of a kilogram.
                    I don't hate Dota, I have actually previously stated in this thread that I love dota. And I don't know where me playing worse came from. I'm doing fine thanks.

                    And yeah, if I wanted to socialize and get with a dota community I wouldn't be on the developer forums. I'm offering a suggestion. It's what the forums were created for. Why are you here?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Tevinhead View Post
                      I don't hate Dota, I have actually previously stated in this thread that I love dota. And I don't know where me playing worse came from. I'm doing fine thanks.

                      And yeah, if I wanted to socialize and get with a dota community I wouldn't be on the developer forums. I'm offering a suggestion. It's what the forums were created for. Why are you here?
                      its just a general statement about 90% of the players complaining about match making. almost all of them call their team things that give away that they also likely rage in game. i certainly do get one sided games now and then. they ARE a problem, but just because i get brain-dead idiots doesn't mean the enemy team isnt getting them too. there isn't really a problem most of the time.

                      when i get one sided games that are just boring stomps, win OR loss, i post them here. these are the games that are important for making mmr better, not "i got a 20 win player and im 2000 games." or "my lion didnt know how to stack and pull". most people dont. most of the dota community is under 49%. everyone feeds at all levels of play in AP. there is always someone who will roll you and you will always find yourself in games where you dont meet the standards of your team. it even happens at tournament level. hell even pro teams mess up stacks and make really stupid picks sometimes.

                      most, but not all, of the people here who complain about match making are the textbook definition of 'scrub'. people who are terrible but think they are great. at anything below my skillcap i have no problem. it may even be onesided enough to qualify for the official matchmaking thread. you cant really stop me from letting myself fall to a bracket where i can just decide to win and have totally one sided 1v4 or 1v5 stomp kind of games though. i certainly dont like my team randoming 4 carries but all i can do is figure out how i fit in to my team and work from there.


                      oh also if you're over 50% and doing what you need to do to win then you're almost like like top 80th percentile of dota 2 players. you are a good example of what mmr is doing right at that point.
                      Last edited by Meiun; 07-22-2013, 03:36 AM.
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                      • #26
                        remove random? wow that would be No fun fortress 2

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                        • #27
                          When you are quantifying 'fun' you have to remember this is a team game. The 'fun' of randoming might be offset by the bad effect it has on your team. If you get stomped hard because your team randomed a terrible composition, is that fun?

                          Let's use a retarded stat analogy.

                          If Player 1 and 2 get +1 fun because they randomed. But player 3, 4, 5 got -1 fun because the randomed heroes ruined the game. What's the overall result if this keeps happening? That's right, the game is less fun overall for everyone. And this analogy doesn't even take into account the fact that being stomped because of bad picks isn't nearly made up by the joy of randoming a hero.

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                          • #28
                            its not the random button... the players decide you win... If i random i will wait till i know our laneup and the enemys laneup.. if i notice my hero doesnt match into it, or is easily countered by the opponents i will repick into something that will fit more.

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                            • #29
                              My view on this: After If I already agreed to play with 4 random strangers, I don't mind if they proceed to pick a random hero. I don't really need this.

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                              • #30
                                If somebody doesn't repick unsuitable hero, there is no guarantee that he would have picked something sensible in the first place. Randoming is good way to challenge yourself and learn more about the game. I'd rather have people randoming than see all those fun pubstomping combo picks.

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