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(Allied Harassment Issue) Bane's Nightmare

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  • (Allied Harassment Issue) Bane's Nightmare

    Hey guys.

    I was a huge fan of the original Dota back in the day and am having a blast with it's sequel; however there is a major issue I have encountered with the hero "Bane" and his "Nightmare" ability. In the dozen games I've played, two of them had allied players who abused this ability and caused a lot of harm to the enjoyment of the match for both teams involved.

    Nightmare "puts the target enemy or friendly Hero to sleep and deals damage per second." I have no problem with Friendly Fire in games, but this does not seem to be a mechanic in Dota 2 ("Denying" aside), so there is no reason for Nightmare to be usable on an ally. Bane or his Ally receive no boon from this as it only hurts the team, especially the player getting targeted. I can also understand an ability that has one function when used on an enemy, and a different one when used on an ally, but this is not the case! The only possibility I can see for Nightmare being able to target allies is that it could deny an inevitable Hero death; however Nightmare deals it's damage over time, prevents movement/ability use, and if the target takes damage from another source the spell ends, so it cannot realistically be used for this purpose.

    I do not assume to be a video game designer, or even a veteran Dota 2 player. I only have a dozen games under my belt, and I do not have all of the game mechanics fully grasped yet, but there is one that is very clear even to someone my small experience pool. Players are supposed assist allies or harm enemies, not to intentional harm allies.
    Attached Files

  • #2
    What?
    a) An enemy attacks an ally, but is out of range. Instantly Nightmare the ally, enemy is affected
    b) Nightmare has a invulnerability splitsecond to dodge heavy spells
    c) Denies.

    So yeah, it should be usable on allies. playdota.com btw.
    If you think I've closed or deleted a post unjustified, feel free to PM me and I'll explain it to you/discuss it with you further.

    Comment


    • #3
      Even if that is the case it still has a huge potential for abuse, which I experienced in two different matches. I had allied Banes casting it on allies again and again with enemies nowhere around for the sole purpose of harassing them. There is no way to protect yourself from this, as even if you are a champion with summons you cannot order them to attack your sleeping hero to break the effect.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Boneguy View Post
        Even if that is the case it still has a huge potential for abuse, which I experienced in two different matches. I had allied Banes casting it on allies again and again with enemies nowhere around for the sole purpose of harassing them. There is no way to protect yourself from this, as even if you are a champion with summons you cannot order them to attack your sleeping hero to break the effect.
        disable help doesnt prevent him from casting it on you?

        Comment


        • #5
          "Disable help"? So there is an option that needs to be turned on, to prevent Banes from randomly harassing you in-game? That is fine if it has a legitimate purpose, it clearly has been chosen to be that way from the wording in the tooltip.

          However it still seems like something could be improved about the spell's functionality, to discourage it from being used to harass allies. For example: the afflicted hero's abilities could be temporarily replaced while under the affect of Nightmare, (if it was cast by an allied Bane) with "Nightmare End" which removes the effect from themselves; just like what Bane has to protect himself from his own attack.
          Last edited by Boneguy; 07-28-2013, 11:33 AM.

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          • #6
            So that people who accidently attack a nightmared target can disable the skill?
            Nightmare is fine, they wont change it. And yes, disable help exists in the upper left corner of your game UI, but I'm not sure if Nightmare is affected.
            If you think I've closed or deleted a post unjustified, feel free to PM me and I'll explain it to you/discuss it with you further.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Boneguy View Post
              "Disable help"? So there is an option that needs to be turned on, to prevent Banes from randomly harassing you in-game? That is fine if it has a legitimate purpose, it clearly has been chosen to be that way from the wording in the tooltip.

              However it still seems like something could be improved about the spell's functionality, to discourage it from being used to harass allies. For example: the afflicted hero's abilities could be temporarily replaced while under the affect of Nightmare, (if it was cast by an allied Bane) with "Nightmare End" which removes the effect from themselves; just like what Bane has to protect himself from his own attack.
              this has been like this for almost 8 years and you are the first person i see that complains about nightmare. there are tons of spells/ways to annoy the crap out of ur teammates or make them die when angry kids play the game. they wont change 45 spells, deal with it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for telling me about that. I will test it out later with a friend and see if it prevents this form of harassment.

                Is it fine? If Friendly Fire is a mechanic in Dota 2, then players should have the capability to use offensive powers on teammates, potentially killing them. If Friendly Fire is not a mechanic in Dota 2, then players should not be able to do this. Either way makes sense and has had successful, balanced games as the result.

                The asymmetry of Dota 2's roster is amazing and I appreciate the work it took to make so many unique heroes. Like I said before, I do not mind if some or all heroes can hurt allies intentionally or accidentally, but there clearly is a problem here if one hero has the ability to damage and crowd control his allies, spamming it until they die, with no reasonable or apparent way for them to protect themselves. Even if intentional team killing was meant to be a part of Dota 2, it would not be fair for some heroes to have the power to harm allies and some heroes who can not, at least not to this degree.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Boneguy View Post
                  The asymmetry of Dota 2's roster is amazing and I appreciate the work it took to make so many unique heroes. Like I said before, I do not mind if some or all heroes can hurt allies intentionally or accidentally, but there clearly is a problem here if one hero has the ability to damage and crowd control his allies, spamming it until they die, with no reasonable or apparent way for them to protect themselves. Even if intentional team killing was meant to be a part of Dota 2, it would not be fair for some heroes to have the power to harm allies and some heroes who can not, at least not to this degree.
                  Bane's nightmare can be used on an ally to deny them. Being able to deny teammates is a thing that some heroes can do, and is built into the overall power level ("balance") of that hero. If every hero had the ability to deny teammates it would be boring. Why not give every hero the same skills!

                  Dota has many unique and interesting spells, and many of them (not just nightmare) can potentially be used to the obvious detriment of one's team. If you want less interesting, kid-safe, family-friendly spells, looking at League of Legends will give you an idea of how boring that would be. If a Bane is abusing this ability you should use disablehelp on him and report him for intentional ability abuse. Are you actually serious about intentional teamkilling being a part of the game, I'm not sure how to reply to that...
                  Last edited by func_door; 07-28-2013, 12:35 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wachon1992 View Post
                    this has been like this for almost 8 years and you are the first person i see that complains about nightmare. there are tons of spells/ways to annoy the crap out of ur teammates or make them die when angry kids play the game. they wont change 45 spells, deal with it.
                    It looks like you have played and posted here a lot: I respect that. You say that I am the first to complain, yet you acknowledge there are many ways for it to be possible. I am not saying that every possibility for harassment in Dota 2 be fixed, just the major problem which I encountered and perhaps similar cases. But it sounds like you are saying there is nothing that can be done.

                    Why? Do the creators of the game not have the resources to fix it? Of course they do, they made the game in the first place; and of course they want to improve it, they've put a lot of effort getting it this far. For example: wouldn't have a forum like this if they didn't care about us, and want to hear our feedback. I am not familiar with the other "44" spells you speak of, but in case with Bane's Nightmare could be easily fixed without changing its stats at all. Simply add a buff on allies affected by Nightmare, making them immune to a repeat cast for a minute. Or add in an ability-switchout while under the affect, like I mentioned earlier. Either of those would completely neuter the spell's obnoxious capabilities, but not hurt it's power in actual gameplay. It could no longer spam an ally hero to death.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Your complaints seem to stem from a misunderstanding of the potential uses of spells. If allies were immune to repeat castings of nightmare that would remove legitimate tactical uses of it (either hero denial, or making an allied hero into a do-not-target for a time). Giving allied nightmare targets an ability to wake up prematurely would be an explicit buff to the spell, affecting game balance.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by func_door View Post
                        Dota has many unique and interesting spells, and many of them (not just nightmare) can potentially be used to the obvious detriment of one's team. If you want less interesting, kid-safe, family-friendly spells, looking at League of Legends will give you an idea of how boring that would be. If a Bane is abusing this ability you should use disablehelp on him and report him for intentional ability abuse. Are you actually serious about intentional teamkilling being a part of the game, I'm not sure how to reply to that...
                        There is no need to be condescending, or make recommendations for other games. Both of those are avoiding a problem at hand, which clearly is an issue or else I wouldn't have experienced it so abundantly in so few games. Are you "actually serious" about your post? Is not the definition of "Team Killing" and "Friendly Fire" that an ally has the power to harm and kill another ally? Is that not what is happening here in this case? Is there something about this situation with Bane and his Nightmare ability which is not crystal clear? I am not talking about abilities which could kill a low-health ally accidentally: I am talking about malicious, repeated use of an ability on a teammate the likes of which is game-breaking both on a operational and emotional level.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There are many non-malicious reasons to cast nightmare on an ally. I'm sorry you got an abusive person on your team, but I don't think that's the game's problem: you can already switch disablehelp on a bane to stop him from using his nightmare on you abusively.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by func_door View Post
                            Your complaints seem to stem from a misunderstanding of the potential uses of spells. If allies were immune to repeat castings of nightmare that would remove legitimate tactical uses of it (either hero denial, or making an allied hero into a do-not-target for a time). Giving allied nightmare targets an ability to wake up prematurely would be an explicit buff to the spell, affecting game balance.
                            Like I said, I am not a seasoned Dota 2 player or a professional game designer. I do not expect to simply reach into a hat and pull out the solution to the problem. But it is very clear that at the least this particular spell can be used very maliciously to ruin an ally's experience in a match. I am not asking that "all" potential for ally-harassment be removed, that simply is not possible. What I am calling for is that the level of harassment this spell is capable of be diminished.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              yes there is you idiot they get 1 second of invul when cast and bane can remove it in half a second from his ally

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