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A Thread about matchmaking and valve's decision to hide wins

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  • #31
    Originally posted by puTTy View Post
    Ladder for solo players in a team game is actually pretty stupid thing. Im all in for team matchmaking ladder with MMR given based purely on wins/defeats and the other teams MMR. I cant see how that LoL solo ladder could possibly work to be good. Because there is no way for it to be representative in a team game. And every one of my friends playing lol is complaining about it more than ppl are complaining here about dota┬┤s matchmaking.
    A solo ladder works in divisions because you are matched with people in your division, unless it is time to "rank up". I can't vouch for the League of Legends ladder because I did not stay with the game for very long outside of playing with a close friend (I didn't enjoy the gameplay or heroes and found myself weaseling out of it to play more Dota). Currently we have a queue that throws a bunch of players together just to create the illusion of a fast queue. This would only work in a solo matchmaking setting anyway (stacks of players with a large skill spread would only return the system to this Stone Age matchmaking system we have in place now), that should be obvious?

    I personally don't enjoy playing these types of matches, whether it be a stomp for you or a stomp for them; I know that after a few stomps the MM system will "put me back in my place" with sub 100-300 win players. Why can't it just decide one way or the other? If I deserve to be playing with beginners, put me with beginners all the time, or vice-versa. It's just confusing and makes it even more difficult to determine if you're actually "advancing" as a player (I know some players are only interested in playing or just trading/farming items and that's fine, I don't mean any ill will to those players who find themselves in a queue with me even if I express it in game).

    I am not saying every player with a low amount of wins is a bad player, but I would prefer to be matched with players that are at least comparable in stats so I can feel at ease that they likely have *some* experience with the game. You know what I mean? Besides I don't like bashing/coaching [on] beginners (questioning/raging as to why this 70 wins Antimage is still trying to build his battlefury at 38:00, Sub-100 win Furions pondering why they keep getting annihilated trying to splitpush when they're built for ganking and not carrying Mekansm), or stomping beginners (going 17/2 on Riki with a late 12:00 midas [ridiculous in and of itself] and still losing or even winning because the opposite team is just as crippled as your own) either way; it doesn't leave anyone feeling good (well masochists/sadomasochists maybe).

    I don't think people need to win every match to have a good time, they just want to have competitive matches most of the time, win or lose; a tiered ladder may not solve that, but there's no harm in giving it a try at least. I do hope Valve has some sort of ladder in mind, though I can't think of any game they ever fostered a competitive environment for outside of monetizing it. Perhaps Team Matchmaking is different, but it's pretty hard to form a team when you hardly get the chance to play with similar players, or can't find a guild (I suppose this was supposed to alleviate that problem) that isn't spamming tradebots or completely silent. Why can't we search for Guilds either? I received the two Guild invites I'm in from idling in one of JoinDota's channel, not exactly the best way to get into one. Why is this system so barebones as well? I suppose I need to trawl forums and request an invite from a Guild Officer/Leader to get into one.

    There's still the normal matchmaking queue for beginners who think they should practice in PvP (I know I did that and took my fair share of rage [understandably]).
    Last edited by Cataxu; 07-29-2013, 01:30 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Cataxu View Post
      A solo ladder works in divisions because you are matched with people in your division, unless it is time to "rank up". I can't vouch for the League of Legends ladder because I did not stay with the game for very long outside of playing with a close friend (I didn't enjoy the gameplay or heroes and found myself weaseling out of it to play more Dota). Currently we have a queue that throws a bunch of players together just to create the illusion of a fast queue. This would only work in a solo matchmaking setting anyway (stacks of players with a large skill spread would only return the system to this Stone Age matchmaking system we have in place now), that should be obvious?

      I personally don't enjoy playing these types of matches, whether it be a stomp for you or a stomp for them; I know that after a few stomps the MM system will "put me back in my place" with sub 100-300 win players. Why can't it just decide one way or the other? If I deserve to be playing with beginners, put me with beginners all the time, or vice-versa. It's just confusing and makes it even more difficult to determine if you're actually "advancing" as a player (I know some players are only interested in playing or just trading/farming items and that's fine, I don't mean any ill will to those players who find themselves in a queue with me even if I express it in game).

      I am not saying every player with a low amount of wins is a bad player, but I would prefer to be matched with players that are at least comparable in stats so I can feel at ease that they likely have *some* experience with the game. You know what I mean? Besides I don't like bashing/coaching [on] beginners (questioning/raging as to why this 70 wins Antimage is still trying to build his battlefury at 38:00, Sub-100 win Furions pondering why they keep getting annihilated trying to splitpush when they're built for ganking and not carrying Mekansm), or stomping beginners (going 17/2 on Riki with a late 12:00 midas [ridiculous in and of itself] and still losing or even winning because the opposite team is just as crippled as your own) either way; it doesn't leave anyone feeling good (well masochists/sadomasochists maybe).

      I don't think people need to win every match to have a good time, they just want to have competitive matches most of the time, win or lose; a tiered ladder may not solve that, but there's no harm in giving it a try at least. I do hope Valve has some sort of ladder in mind, though I can't think of any game they ever fostered a competitive environment for outside of monetizing it. Perhaps Team Matchmaking is different, but it's pretty hard to form a team when you hardly get the chance to play with similar players, or can't find a guild (I suppose this was supposed to alleviate that problem) that isn't spamming tradebots or completely silent. Why can't we search for Guilds either? I received the two Guild invites I'm in from idling in one of JoinDota's channel, not exactly the best way to get into one. Why is this system so barebones as well? I suppose I need to trawl forums and request an invite from a Guild Officer/Leader to get into one.

      There's still the normal matchmaking queue for beginners who think they should practice in PvP (I know I did that and took my fair share of rage [understandably]).
      This group with about 2,500 wins in collective experience got fucking demolished by

      http://dotabuff.com/matches/256430995

      a guy with 15 wins. I mean he kicked their asses so hard, the shit stains may never come out of his boots.

      Using # of wins as a measure of skill or experience only works at the lowest level of Normal pub gaming. It's a false premise that leads to poor conclusions. Every other thread is populated by this same misconception and poor logic. Admittedly, I also fell into this trap of measuring players by win total and even dodged games in the past because of it. It wasn't until Dotabuff came out that I realized that more often than not, these weren't bad players I was being matched with that played poorly; they were decent players that had a bad game. Shit that happens to all of us on occasion. This is not to completely dismiss the times when matchmaking does fail...but this broad brush painting is dubious because it obfuscates the reality that people had experiences with Dota before Dota2, and that people smurf. You never know who is who...but Dotabuff tends to clarify things.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by cancnar View Post
        OK , I am updating the thread now.
        First of all , While writing the original post I was absurdly angry and frustated so that post isn't from an %100 objective point of field.Now I also got some more information on this TA player. It wasn't his 30th game or anything it was about his 150th game and he was trying to play all the heroes by randomining.

        Now , we shouldn't be bitching about MM but rather than that we should be talking about how to fix it.

        I have an ok idea to fix the MM.

        The best way to do that is probably combining the MMR and Division system. But in the MM divisions will not be bound to skill my any means. It will be bound to matches played. Like 1st div 0-200 2nd div 200-800 3rd div 800+ etc
        So now you're asking : How to prevent smurfs and wont be matches too unbalanced?
        This is where the MMR comes into play. The MMR will be same as now , the only difference is that every division will have its own MMR and everytime you jump a division your MMR resets. This will prevent smurfs from happening since smurfs will be playing against smurfs because of the MMR. Smurfs will have high MMR and will play against other High MMR smurfs.

        This is the best way to fix the MM right now imo. There wont be too much divisions at first since the playerbase is not that big but there will be more and more as the player base gets bigger.

        Btw I would like to give you the match ID but i fucked up so much in the laning phase as the WR that i dont want anybody to see it. My mistakes didn't result in anything bad but they were really terrible. Also in the end i got a score of 3/7/6 so yeah.
        This actually makes alot of sense, its brilliant! One being the fact that eventhough players do not excel in that specific division, they will continue to rise up the ranks which means there is no sense of failure and games are rewarding none the less. As mentioned before it also gets rid of smurfs to some extent but I feel its almost impossible to get rid of them. Every game could have an average MMR for both teams which should be equal etc etc. I feel this should be implemented for solo queuing and 2-3 man queuing, 4 man and 5 man stacks seem perfect in my opinion, every 5 man stack game i've played has been relatively close with the drafts ultimately deciding the match. This method also cause players to play more games as they would strive to move up the ladder. Hats off sir! Great idea.

        EDIT: Queue times shouldn't matter that much due to ALT-TABBING thus a more complex algorithm could be implemented.

        Comment


        • #34
          A match ID will give you a lot of credibility. Ignore the trolls that criticize you.
          We are Legion.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Dreams-Visions View Post
            This group with about 2,500 wins in collective experience got fucking demolished by

            http://dotabuff.com/matches/256430995

            a guy with 15 wins. I mean he kicked their asses so hard, the shit stains may never come out of his boots.

            Using # of wins as a measure of skill or experience only works at the lowest level of Normal pub gaming. It's a false premise that leads to poor conclusions. Every other thread is populated by this same misconception and poor logic. Admittedly, I also fell into this trap of measuring players by win total and even dodged games in the past because of it. It wasn't until Dotabuff came out that I realized that more often than not, these weren't bad players I was being matched with that played poorly; they were decent players that had a bad game. Shit that happens to all of us on occasion. This is not to completely dismiss the times when matchmaking does fail...but this broad brush painting is dubious because it obfuscates the reality that people had experiences with Dota before Dota2, and that people smurf. You never know who is who...but Dotabuff tends to clarify things.
            I don't see that kick ass you talk about, I see a game of 50 min long with 6k difference in team's gold, best scores 11-5, 11-4..
            Dota 2 status:
            http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota...respawn_04.mp3

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Dreams-Visions View Post
              This group with about 2,500 wins in collective experience got fucking demolished by

              http://dotabuff.com/matches/256430995

              a guy with 15 wins. I mean he kicked their asses so hard, the shit stains may never come out of his boots.

              Using # of wins as a measure of skill or experience only works at the lowest level of Normal pub gaming. It's a false premise that leads to poor conclusions. Every other thread is populated by this same misconception and poor logic. Admittedly, I also fell into this trap of measuring players by win total and even dodged games in the past because of it. It wasn't until Dotabuff came out that I realized that more often than not, these weren't bad players I was being matched with that played poorly; they were decent players that had a bad game. Shit that happens to all of us on occasion. This is not to completely dismiss the times when matchmaking does fail...but this broad brush painting is dubious because it obfuscates the reality that people had experiences with Dota before Dota2, and that people smurf. You never know who is who...but Dotabuff tends to clarify things.
              This is my biggest beef with people's qualms with matchmaking.

              Matchmaking doesn't know what hero you're going to pick.

              Matchmaking doesn't know how you're going to lane it.

              Matchmaking doesn't know what heroes you fail against in certain lane/team comps.

              Matchmaking doesn't know if you're going to be counter-picked.

              Matchmaking doesn't know if you're just having a bad dota day.

              EVERYONE that plays this game has weaknesses, bad games, etc. While sometimes, you do clearly run into people who are completely out of their element, that doesn't happen that often in my experience. The main reason why ELO ladders are bad in this genre is because it turns the game into a forced, one way to play meta, or else statistics can't be relevant, because of what was stated above.

              Should there be a separate queue where people pre-determine their roles before queuing? Probably, but that would just be exploited and circumvented regardless.
              Last edited by Covertghost; 07-29-2013, 02:22 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Dreams-Visions View Post
                This group with about 2,500 wins in collective experience got fucking demolished by

                http://dotabuff.com/matches/256430995

                a guy with 15 wins. I mean he kicked their asses so hard, the shit stains may never come out of his boots.

                Using # of wins as a measure of skill or experience only works at the lowest level of Normal pub gaming. It's a false premise that leads to poor conclusions.
                If you took the time to read what I wrote, I said I understand it's not a benchmark of skill, it is more of a benchmark of EXPERIENCE. I am not asking for "GOOD PLAYERS" with a similar amount of wins as me, I'm asking for EXPERIENCED players (insofar as a similar wincount to me [if we go by the typical 50% MMR, we should have a similar amount of games played and won). I would like to take a stat and extrapolate it, in this case experience is something that can be measured through the number of games played, Dota 2 profiles don't show your total number of games played, many people don't have a dotabuff profile or even know how to go about enabling it, or that such a site even exists; so this is the stat I have to work with.

                What don't you comprehend about that? What does some random match do to prove your point? It's not as though anyone here is unfamiliar with the concept of "smurfing" so why insult my intelligence and demonstrate your inability to read and comprehend what I'm saying. Do you not get the gist of what I'm saying? How can I make it any clearer to you? For your information, I'm not interested in playing with SMURFS either. Nice way to take my post, barely read it, and then post a bunch of asinine drivel completely unrelated to what I talked about. What a "misconception" I had before you came and cleared it up for me, buddy.
                Last edited by Cataxu; 07-29-2013, 03:04 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Devs? Are you there?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Lenciades View Post
                    I don't see that kick ass you talk about, I see a game of 50 min long with 6k difference in team's gold, best scores 11-5, 11-4..
                    According to people here, what do you think we should have expected of a guy with 25 wins playing carry and going up against a team with a collective 2,500 wins?

                    Tell me, what would you have expected before clicking if I made a thread title that says,

                    "Guy with 15 wins picks carry against a team with 2,500 wins, total. Failure ensues."

                    You would have expected the usual bitching about how "omg MMR is fucked up look at this 15-win noob picking carry against all these experienced veteran all-stars fuck you Volvo." Right? Except what we actually have here is someone with few wins making the point people seem to miss constantly: wins don't mean a goddman thing unless you're completely new to Dota/HoN. If this same 15 win noob had lost, someone like you would have made a post here about OMG Volvo fraud. This guy carried hard. Fuck the win total. Not everyone with just a few wins is bad, and maybe not every time one of them fails it's because they're noobs...maybe they -- like you or I -- simply had a mediocre game.

                    The shit isn't always about wins and losses in Dota2. Again, people smurf, people played Dota1, people played HoN. Assuming someone is simply bad and MM failed is often times scapegoating, and people get corrected here every day when they post their match ID's.

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