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Determining Skill by W/L-Rate is bad

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  • Determining Skill by W/L-Rate is bad

    So, we all know that skill bracket is determined by W/L-Rate. If you are 50% and below you will be in normal bracket.
    50%-55% will be high bracket. And everyone above 55% is very high bracket.

    But this system is stupid mainly because you will never advance to higher brackets if you never stack and stomp even though you improve as player.
    I myself are in normal bracket and my W/L is at 49.5% and there is no way i will advance because i only solo queue.
    I am too good for normal bracket (yes, i say this with full confidence) but often my teammates keep me down...yadda yadda you know the stories.
    Also i know there are bad players in high bracket because they get carried by their teammates because they always stack.

    Skill should be determined by performance in games and average XPM/GPM and not by W/L-rates.

    ELO is bad and will always be bad.

  • #2
    1. Brackets are only used to sort replays, there are no brackets involved in the MM.
    2. The first part of the post is incorrect.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Paranoid_Android View Post
      So, we all know that skill bracket is determined by W/L-Rate. If you are 50% and below you will be in normal bracket.
      50%-55% will be high bracket. And everyone above 55% is very high bracket.

      But this system is stupid mainly because you will never advance to higher brackets if you never stack and stomp even though you improve as player.
      I myself are in normal bracket and my W/L is at 49.5% and there is no way i will advance because i only solo queue.
      I am too good for normal bracket (yes, i say this with full confidence) but often my teammates keep me down...yadda yadda you know the stories.
      Also i know there are bad players in high bracket because they get carried by their teammates because they always stack.

      Skill should be determined by performance in games and average XPM/GPM and not by W/L-rates.

      ELO is bad and will always be bad.
      1st part is completely wrong.

      Comment


      • #4
        I solo play very high and I have 53% winrate, so your reasoning is not very good.

        To be truly honest I've started playing dota from scratch around october last year and it took me around 850 hours to get to very high (and couple of dota uninstalls).

        If you are really good, as you claim, you will get to higher matchmaking.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Paranoid_Android View Post
          So, we all know that skill bracket is determined by W/L-Rate. If you are 50% and below you will be in normal bracket.
          50%-55% will be high bracket. And everyone above 55% is very high bracket.

          But this system is stupid mainly because you will never advance to higher brackets if you never stack and stomp even though you improve as player.
          I myself are in normal bracket and my W/L is at 49.5% and there is no way i will advance because i only solo queue.
          I am too good for normal bracket (yes, i say this with full confidence) but often my teammates keep me down...yadda yadda you know the stories.
          Also i know there are bad players in high bracket because they get carried by their teammates because they always stack.

          Skill should be determined by performance in games and average XPM/GPM and not by W/L-rates.

          ELO is bad and will always be bad.
          You can solo queue into Very High. I do it all the time on many different accounts. You can even do it by randoming heroes in All Pick, but I really don't recommend that if your rank is what you care about.

          If you don't win, you won't get there, but you can have a lot of influence on a game as a solo player in any role. There is no better metric than whether you do what it takes to win a match.
          Last edited by Craig; 08-08-2013, 08:59 PM.
          To avoid LPQ:

          Don't draw attention to yourself
          Don't use voice or chat except for 'ss'
          Mute all at lvl 1
          Only play in parties
          Get alternate accounts
          Limit your usage to one or two games per day per account
          Don't play too well
          Don't play on Sunday or Monday
          Wait until the developers reset LPQ status

          If you're getting matched with trolls or feeders:

          You may have been placed in a hidden pool. There is no known way out of this, apart from moving to a different account.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Paranoid_Android View Post

            But this system is stupid mainly because you will never advance to higher brackets if you never stack and stomp even though you improve as player.
            i really don't care about these brackets. dota 2 is a heavily team-based game and having a high win rate (coz u stack with friends) regardless of individual performance should get you to the higher brackers. win rate should be the metric to assess team performance.

            what i am concerned about is the current situation of matchmaking where there's a widespread difference of skill level between players. maybe Valve is doing this to force us watch the TI3 playoffs instead of just playing a game or two, or maybe they want all players to reach out to other players and be community-oriented.

            it's like we're taking the burden to help these newbies win games. i had a game yesterday where the POTM wouldn't ulti when we asked him to ulti (coz it's either we're on our way to gank or trying to escape a gank) and he even called us noobs.

            i know it's possible for Valve to match players of the same skill level. They've done it before. I know they can. I've played exciting games before where you wouldn't know who will win. I don't care about these stupid brackets. I don't mind going to the low bracket as long as I know I'm with people of the same skill level.
            Last edited by iceinaglass; 08-08-2013, 09:32 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by iceinaglass View Post
              i really don't care about these brackets. dota 2 is a heavily team-based game and having a high win rate (coz u stack with friends) regardless of individual performance should get you to the higher brackers. win rate should be the metric to assess team performance.

              what i am concerned about is the current situation of matchmaking where there's a widespread difference of skill level between players. maybe Valve is doing this to force us watch the TI3 playoffs instead of just playing a game or two, or maybe they want all players to reach out to other players and be community-oriented.

              it's like we're taking the burden to help these newbies win games. i had a game yesterday where the POTM wouldn't ulti when we asked him to ulti (coz it's either we're on our way to gank or trying to escape a gank) and he even called us noobs.

              i know it's possible for Valve to match players of the same skill level. They've done it before. I know they can. I've played exciting games before where you wouldn't know who will win. I don't care about these stupid brackets. I don't mind going to the low bracket as long as I know I'm with people of the same skill level.
              It's just paranoia.

              If you solo queue, you will get players of a very similar skill level, unless you have some very unusual search parameters for the time of day that you're playing.

              Why is your skill level as low as theirs? Well... it's because you don't win more matches. Using "noob teammates" as an excuse for why you can't beat "noob enemies" just doesn't wash. If you outperform at your current skill level, then over time you will win more matches than you lose.

              I get matched with players who don't know all the heroes or how to build them. Why are they at my skill level? Usually because I've been on a losing streak, because I randomed every game, or I didn't pick to win, or I've played a hero that doesn't work too well in AP. If I win more, then I don't meet them anymore.

              Sure, you get unlucky when the enemy all end up with a good draft and heroes that they can play and your teammates pick badly and can't play what they pick, but it's more likely to be the other way round, unless you're doing the same. Can you be sure that you're not?

              Do you want me to look at your match history? I'm pretty sure I can identify quite quickly a number of reasons why you're not winning more matches.

              Let me give you an example:

              Suppose:

              A) is a newish player and gets good at hero like Warlock, Bara or Abaddon and that's all they ever play.
              B) is an experienced player, knows every hero, but gets his kicks from randoming in All Pick.

              A is playing to win, even if they don't fully understand how they're winning, their strategy of playing a single hero gets them to a highish rank.

              B is having fun, maybe experimenting a bit, honing his skils in a wide variety situations. He's not going all out to win, so his rank is lower than it might be if he picked to win.

              We would say that B is the better player, but the reality is that they could easily have the same influence on a match outcome at the same skill level, so it's right that they play in the same matches.

              Now suppose A is getting bored of his one hero, or someone else picks it first. He's in all kinds of trouble. He's going to be very ineffective and will probably feed. He's going to lose matches.

              Suppose B, randoms one of the heroes that he knows particularly well and it's a snowball hero. He's very likely to dominate the opposing hero(es) in his lane and you're going to call them feeders, but they're just really been outplayed.

              Now suppose B randoms his favourite hero, SF, so he goes Solo Mid. A is playing a hero for the first time, it's a mid hero. That's very likely to be a one-sided match, unless A's teammates are clued up and gank mid hard from very early in the game.
              Last edited by Craig; 08-08-2013, 10:41 PM.
              To avoid LPQ:

              Don't draw attention to yourself
              Don't use voice or chat except for 'ss'
              Mute all at lvl 1
              Only play in parties
              Get alternate accounts
              Limit your usage to one or two games per day per account
              Don't play too well
              Don't play on Sunday or Monday
              Wait until the developers reset LPQ status

              If you're getting matched with trolls or feeders:

              You may have been placed in a hidden pool. There is no known way out of this, apart from moving to a different account.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mikulus View Post
                If you are really good, as you claim, you will get to higher matchmaking.
                Most of the time i am better than most of my random teammates, so i am too good for "Normal Bracket".
                Mek at 12 minutes, forcestaff as 18 minutes and stuff like this proves this. But what can you do, if your teammates just lose their lanes and keep on feeding?
                It feels like Valves MM puts me in matches i will lose 100% to keep my W/L around 50%.
                Last edited by Paranoid_Android; 08-08-2013, 10:45 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Paranoid_Android View Post
                  Most of the time i am better than most of my random teammates, so i am too good for "Normal Bracket".
                  Mek at 12 minutes, forcestaff as 18 minutes and stuff like this proves this. But what can you do, if your teammates just lose their lanes and keep on feeding?
                  When you say "Mek at 12 minutes, forcestaff as 18 minutes", that's ringing alarm bells right there. At what cost? Where did that gold come from? What else could you have bought with that gold? When I play support, I'm happy if I've only got Boots of Speed at 12 mins, so long as I've got all the lanes going well. Sure, Mekansm is a great item, but if you're going all out to get it and the lanes are feeding, then working on that Mek almost certainly wasn't the best thing for you to be doing.

                  As a support, you have an enormous early game advantage, for 2 reasons. Firstly, you have abilities that can keep carries safe and can turn lane outcomes. Secondly, you don't need much gold and in many situations you don't need much XP to stay effective. You've got to play to these strengths and help the weaker heroes in early game as much as you can.
                  Last edited by Craig; 08-08-2013, 10:57 PM.
                  To avoid LPQ:

                  Don't draw attention to yourself
                  Don't use voice or chat except for 'ss'
                  Mute all at lvl 1
                  Only play in parties
                  Get alternate accounts
                  Limit your usage to one or two games per day per account
                  Don't play too well
                  Don't play on Sunday or Monday
                  Wait until the developers reset LPQ status

                  If you're getting matched with trolls or feeders:

                  You may have been placed in a hidden pool. There is no known way out of this, apart from moving to a different account.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Craig View Post
                    It's just paranoia.

                    Do you want me to look at your match history? I'm pretty sure I can identify quite quickly a number of reasons why you're not winning more matches.
                    Ok lemme give u a few match IDs as requested:

                    Match ID 265740874

                    ES getting his gold from creeps and not from assists (not buying wards whatsoever). I was the one covering the consumables. I played Axe. The Disruptor too in this game was not buying wards. Oh no he did buy three sets of sentries I think, after telling him that I need to save money so I can equip myself with decent items. But it was too late.

                    Match ID 265799797

                    I was the fifth in a four-man stack party (friends who are in the U.S.). My ping was 310 ms. I already told them that I cannot play in the U.S. East server (I only play in SEA server) but they insisted. It was their fault for having me in their team. The game was still fun though. The opposing team knows team work.

                    Match ID 265871249

                    Bane raged and quit. I had to provide wards and everything for the team. I played as Batrider.

                    Match ID 265903891

                    Teamed up with carry-pickers. I'm the only support. Chose Silencer to somehow stop Enigma from catching the idiots with his blackhole.
                    Last edited by iceinaglass; 08-08-2013, 11:31 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by iceinaglass View Post
                      Ok lemme give u a few match IDs as requested:

                      Match ID 265740874

                      ES getting his gold from creeps and not from assists (not buying wards whatsoever). I was the one covering the consumables. I played Axe. The Disruptor too in this game was not buying wards. Oh no he did buy three sets of sentries I think, after telling him that I need to save money so I can equip myself with decent items. But it was too late.

                      Match ID 265799797

                      I was the fifth in a four-man stack party (friends who are in the U.S.). My ping was 310 ms. I already told them that I cannot play in the U.S. East server (I only play in SEA server) but they insisted. It was their fault for having me in their team. The game was still fun though. The opposing team knows team work.

                      Match ID 265871249

                      Bane raged and quit. I had to provide wards and everything for the team. I played as Batrider.

                      Match ID 265903891

                      Teamed up with carry-pickers. I'm the only support. Chose Silencer to somehow stop Enigma from catching the idiots with his blackhole.
                      A few select Match ID's isn't enough anymore. Due to recent changes in the client, you'd need to go to:

                      Game | General | Share Match History and set it to On

                      if you want me to take a look.
                      To avoid LPQ:

                      Don't draw attention to yourself
                      Don't use voice or chat except for 'ss'
                      Mute all at lvl 1
                      Only play in parties
                      Get alternate accounts
                      Limit your usage to one or two games per day per account
                      Don't play too well
                      Don't play on Sunday or Monday
                      Wait until the developers reset LPQ status

                      If you're getting matched with trolls or feeders:

                      You may have been placed in a hidden pool. There is no known way out of this, apart from moving to a different account.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I love threads that start with "we all know that", followed by completly wrong things
                        I only play solo since quite a long time.
                        I'm permanently on 52-53%
                        My games are "rated" very high.

                        ELO works fine while GPM and XPM are completly useless stats.
                        If you think I've closed or deleted a post unjustified, feel free to PM me and I'll explain it to you/discuss it with you further.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Play 1 game. Win.

                          100% win rate - best Dota player!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            One of the things not mentioned yet in this thread is that the OP wants it to be based on "xpm/gpm", which is an even worse system. That would put carries in very-high (winning carries get 700+-100gpm on a regular basis), but the best supports (who barely lasthit, get some farm from stack/pull, but not much, don't get kills and leaves them to the carry, etc) as firmly "normal", even if they did more for the team. Now, you might say "well, do it based on carry vs support; supports get higher for assists etc", but you can't always tell the difference there either. For example, Naga is commonly played in both support and carry roles (same with gyro and others). Such a system also couldn't take into account heroes like NP / Alch where you get a higher GPM regardless of skill, wouldn't properly account for even slightly varying meta (even push strats would be weighted oddly), and so on. In addition, when you say "performance" (I've mostly assumed you meant k/d/a, gpm, xpm), there is absolutely no way such a vague metric can actually be created that accounts for all heroes, playstyles, and metas accurately.

                            So in addition to the premise of how MM works being wrong, the "fix" is just bad.

                            The reality of doing your MMR based on W/L and relative skill (ELO) is that it's imperfect, but there's likely not anything that's perfect. Over time it will become accurate though because, if you're that good then you'll, over time, end up in very high. Like all statistics, having more data points makes it far more accurate.

                            The biggest problem with MM is not the system, but the players. Most players rank themselves higher than their actual skill (see also dunning kruger effect), and then they get mad when the system places them in their actual skill level. The players also typically blame their teammates because part of human nature is noticing the flaws of others much more easily than your own.

                            If you don't like your MMR placement then just play more games.. you might already be at the right level, but more games will make that even more sure. Making a forum post that shows more a lack of understanding how the system works than any true grievance isn't going to help.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Paranoid_Android View Post
                              So, we all know that skill bracket is determined by W/L-Rate. If you are 50% and below you will be in normal bracket.
                              50%-55% will be high bracket. And everyone above 55% is very high bracket.

                              But this system is stupid mainly because you will never advance to higher brackets if you never stack and stomp even though you improve as player.
                              I myself are in normal bracket and my W/L is at 49.5% and there is no way i will advance because i only solo queue.
                              I am too good for normal bracket (yes, i say this with full confidence) but often my teammates keep me down...yadda yadda you know the stories.
                              Also i know there are bad players in high bracket because they get carried by their teammates because they always stack.

                              Skill should be determined by performance in games and average XPM/GPM and not by W/L-rates.

                              ELO is bad and will always be bad.
                              Okay OP let me explain this to you in a way where everything I say is also fact.

                              Dota is just a copy of LoL and it was only "made" first because icefrog is just some faggot that went back in time to create it before riot could. Icefrog then realised he created a complete piece of crap on wc3 engine and went to valve for help.

                              Comment

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