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Still ded gaem

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  • Still ded gaem

    The problem with matchmaking is not the lack of visible MMR. It's that valve is relying too much on math formulas. All along people have been complaining that after they go a long win streak, their next few games will be hell. Valve confirmed this in their recent blog post.

    The sad thing is that they are trying to use numbers to represent human behaviour. This is guaranteed to always fail. No question about that.

    Anyone can think of a good alternative system? I cant think of any.

  • #2
    The best response to your argument is given by you, yourself:

    "Anyone can think of a good alternative system? I cant think of any."

    Numbers/mathematics/statistics is the only way to do it.
    Fix the gold mouseover being obstructed!
    Also, please implement ctrl+shift+arrow functionality like every other major application!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Aelius28 View Post
      The best response to your argument is given by you, yourself:

      "Anyone can think of a good alternative system? I cant think of any."

      Numbers/mathematics/statistics is the only way to do it.
      It's ok, theoretical physicists will solve the MMR problem.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Avidity View Post
        It's ok, theoretical physicists will solve the MMR problem.
        Theoretical physics has as much to do with resolving MMR problems as bridge building and metallurgy.
        Fix the gold mouseover being obstructed!
        Also, please implement ctrl+shift+arrow functionality like every other major application!

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        • #5
          You want worst to represent human behavior?
          Another human.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Aelius28 View Post
            The best response to your argument is given by you, yourself:

            "Anyone can think of a good alternative system? I cant think of any."

            Numbers/mathematics/statistics is the only way to do it.
            The mathematics/statistics they are using is most likely basic at best. Matchmaking in a game like Dota 2 is going to be much more difficult than in a game like Starcraft 2. Theirs more variables than win/loss vs XXXX MMR. They need to take into account items built to determine role the hero was going for. Lots of kills on a support is a bad thing and such should reduce your effective MMR in my opinion.

            I feel that valve's MMR arithmetic is to basic. They definitely need to boost it. They shouldn't be able to get a solid read on your true MMR until roughly 100 games or so.

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            • #7
              It's like you want to add more metrics to the MMR right? but if you do it like that it becomes abusable. So in the end ELO is the best thing there is, except you can't misclick in stuff like chess.
              Elo is never going to determine how someone will behave, perform, and communicate in a given match. It's a team game after all, you need ALL of the players to play exactly as good on their own as well as in combination with others, conditioned by whatever value this number is supposed to mean. Not much of a realistic expectation.
              Spoiler: 
              I guard the rear.

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              • #8
                Well there could be a extremely complex formula based on a ton of things like for example: if you place a ward and someone gets spotted by that ward (and hasn't been spotted recently) and dies within a certain time period that contributes microscopically to your mmr boost that match which will be subtle, but there are so many factors that it adds up but not a whole lot so you could go up 2 points out of 10 for a win, maybe more or less.

                A less complex approach would probably be to let your teammates thumbs up or down you at the end of a match also having a subtle effect, but obviously theres 4 man stacks of retards who do stupid shit so you could get a 4 man downvote when the whole team picked carries and fed or whatever, and you can't rely on people really at mass. If this is abusable there could be obvious restrictions like not letting your party members do it, not letting people from previous game do it again, not letting it be done on private servers, etc.

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                • #9
                  They don't use numbers to represent human behavior, they use numbers to represent their match making system. And I think what you're thinking is to make the match making system be based on human behavior in which you don't even know how to.

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                  • #10
                    People have such a weird definition of "dead game".

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Shadow Dancer View Post
                      Well there could be a extremely complex formula based on a ton of things like for example: if you place a ward and someone gets spotted by that ward (and hasn't been spotted recently) and dies within a certain time period that contributes microscopically to your mmr boost that match which will be subtle, but there are so many factors that it adds up but not a whole lot so you could go up 2 points out of 10 for a win, maybe more or less.

                      A less complex approach would probably be to let your teammates thumbs up or down you at the end of a match also having a subtle effect, but obviously theres 4 man stacks of retards who do stupid shit so you could get a 4 man downvote when the whole team picked carries and fed or whatever, and you can't rely on people really at mass. If this is abusable there could be obvious restrictions like not letting your party members do it, not letting people from previous game do it again, not letting it be done on private servers, etc.
                      You know i don't think of warding as a skill as much as just an obligation, you shouldn't get awards for warding, you just do it because you want to win. And the user ratings increasing your mmr is just gonna get everyone begging to be commended. It could be a problem. (Everyone always has the warding example, i wonder if anyone here can think of a different metric that could be used.)
                      Spoiler: 
                      I guard the rear.

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                      • #12
                        Fantasy team point system was pretty neat. There were different roles (carry, support, solo, ???) and each of them have their points calculated differently.
                        Carry had an emphasis on GPM and kills, support on assist, etc.

                        But Valve made that that system for TI3 so chances are they have implemented or will be implementing it into MM algorithm.

                        The blog also stated that there is no MM which works perfectly. Also if you perform really well in a game and you still lose your MMR does not automatically decrease.
                        James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
                        * 25.02.16 - † 26.02.16
                        Spoiler: 


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                        • #13
                          If you have a problem with how Valve deals with the matchmaking system, please use the matchmaking feedback thread that is stickied in the Misc section. Stop creating thread about the same topic.
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