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Different Way For The MMR System To Work

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  • Different Way For The MMR System To Work

    So the last thread I made about this didn't go down a treat because people were complaining that having an MMR based on K/D's could be abused too easily and Supports would lose out. The current system which is based solely on Wins/Losses is also a bad system as it punishes people who do well in the game when their team mates throw the match. So why not ADD this system below to current one?

    Player with MOST Kills in the game gets XX +points
    Player with MOST Assists in the game gets XX +points
    Player with MOST Denies gets XX +points
    Player with MOST Last Hits gets XX +points
    Player with MOST Observer Wards placed gets XX +points
    Player with MOST Towers Destroyed gets XX +points
    Player with LEAST Deaths gets XX +points
    Player who Abandons loses a ton of MMR points

    That way, even if you lose through no fault of your own, YOU could still boost your MMR if you PLAYED WELL in that game.
    Last edited by Scorpius; 12-24-2013, 10:00 AM.

  • #2
    No, all the responses in the last thread already told you why these systems don't work.

    Your last idea is plain bad, who needs smurfs when you can easily tank your MMR to crush noobs like the OP?

    Inb4 naga siren becomes a top pick.

    Edit: Oh sry, you actually need skillz to play naga siren. Sorry, I forgot.

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    • #3
      Sooo... Most kills, denies, last hits, and least deaths.. Yet another reason for people to call ''MID OR FEED''..

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Randomization View Post
        Sooo... Most kills, denies, last hits, and least deaths.. Yet another reason for people to call ''MID OR FEED''..
        You clearly didn't read this right at all. There's stuff for every role in the suggestion above. Nobody is losing out except ppl who Abandon. You get +points for last hitting, denying, assists and for staying alive longest. Then for carries the person with most kills gets some points for that too. These get ADDED to the Win/Loss -/+25 at the end.

        Say if you're a mid carry and you get MOST kills you get +points. But if you're a support and you get MOST Assists, MOST denies, LEAST deaths and MOST Observer Wards Placed you get ++++points (4x times as many as the carry).
        Last edited by Scorpius; 12-24-2013, 08:25 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Scorpius View Post
          You clearly didn't read this right at all. There's stuff for every role in the suggestion above. Nobody is losing out except ppl who Abandon. You get +points for last hitting, denying, assists and for staying alive longest. Then for carries the person with most kills gets some points for that too. These get ADDED to the Win/Loss -/+25 at the end.
          so carries get tons of + points and supports get nothing.
          Even though it's thanks to supports.
          つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Solo Queue

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          • #6
            so carries get tons of + points and supports get nothing. Even though it's thanks to supports.
            Re-read the bold edit above your post.
            Last edited by Scorpius; 12-24-2013, 08:28 AM.

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            • #7
              So you stomp one game and get 5000 MMR, right? Okioki

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              • #8
                Ah yes because win rate in a team game should definitely be you mmr. The valveknight is strong in this thread.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Randomization View Post
                  Sooo... Most kills, denies, last hits, and least deaths.. Yet another reason for people to call ''MID OR FEED''..
                  Originally posted by Kumori View Post
                  so carries get tons of + points and supports get nothing.
                  Even though it's thanks to supports.
                  There's a bunch of things that could be done for non-carry players: awards based on team healing, wards placed (with a check to make sure they aren't spammed), tower damage dealt, invisible heroes revealed, tangos shared, enemies caught in an initiator's ult, etc. I think focusing on the specifics of this system is the wrong thing to at this point: the question we should be asking is whether the idea of rewarding better play with increased MMR is a good idea. Once we decide that, we're in a much better position to debate what should be tracked and how to prevent abuse.

                  Originally posted by godofrandom View Post
                  So you stomp one game and get 5000 MMR, right? Okioki
                  At the moment, you gain / lose about 15-25 points for a win / loss. Provided the bonuses are kept small, there wouldn't be any risk of something like that. You could also easily stick a cap on the maximum bonus (say, +15) to prevent farming.

                  Originally posted by volvoplsfix View Post
                  Ah yes because win rate in a team game should definitely be you mmr. The valveknight is strong in this thread.
                  It does seem odd that individual performance is disregarded when it comes to the MMR. It's entirely possible for one person to win or lose a game for the rest of his team through exceptionally good or bad play. Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not for a minute trying to say that MMR should all based off your KDR or something silly like that, but it would be nice to see your MMR take into account both your individual and your team performance with bonuses like this.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DarkLite View Post
                    There's a bunch of things that could be done for non-carry players: awards based on team healing, wards placed (with a check to make sure they aren't spammed), tower damage dealt, invisible heroes revealed, tangos shared, enemies caught in an initiator's ult, etc. I think focusing on the specifics of this system is the wrong thing to at this point: the question we should be asking is whether the idea of rewarding better play with increased MMR is a good idea. Once we decide that, we're in a much better position to debate what should be tracked and how to prevent abuse.


                    At the moment, you gain / lose about 15-25 points for a win / loss. Provided the bonuses are kept small, there wouldn't be any risk of something like that. You could also easily stick a cap on the maximum bonus (say, +15) to prevent farming.


                    It does seem odd that individual performance is disregarded when it comes to the MMR. It's entirely possible for one person to win or lose a game for the rest of his team through exceptionally good or bad play. Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not for a minute trying to say that MMR should all based off your KDR or something silly like that, but it would be nice to see your MMR take into account both your individual and your team performance with bonuses like this.
                    The thing about "checks" is that they don't do a good job at preventing abuse. Take a look at the seasonal game modes: people were using every trick in the book in order to find a better way to win the PBR. Even wraith night, which doesn't have a reward that's worth several thousand dollars, has tons of abuses (4 man disconnect, buying couriers to revive heroes, spawning bots etc). If you give people an opportunity to cheat the system, they will do it. Which is why I prefer letting win/loss decide everything. If you're better than the people you're matched with, then your MMR will slowly rise.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Heh_ View Post
                      If you're better than the people you're matched with, then your MMR will slowly rise.
                      With only wins and losses determining your MMR currently, this statement would be incorrect. The truth is: if you are matched with people who are a lot worse than you at the game, your MMR will consistently drop because the will lose the game for you. In my experience of the game (over 1500 matches) there are far more bad players than good ones currently in the matching pool.

                      With that in mind, the MMR needs to be altered to give a valid reflection of a player's personal accomplishments/failures.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Scorpius View Post
                        With only wins and losses determining your MMR currently, this statement would be incorrect. The truth is: if you are matched with people who are a lot worse than you at the game, your MMR will consistently drop because the will lose the game for you. In my experience of the game (over 1500 matches) there are far more bad players than good ones currently in the matching pool.

                        With that in mind, the MMR needs to be altered to give a valid reflection of a player's personal accomplishments/failures.
                        If your actual MMR is higher than the MMR shown in-game, you get matched up with player who are indeed "worse" than you. But guess what? Your opponents will also be equally bad. If you can't win the game because you're the best player around, then you might not actually be as good as you thought you were.

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                        • #13

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heh_ View Post
                            The thing about "checks" is that they don't do a good job at preventing abuse. Take a look at the seasonal game modes: people were using every trick in the book in order to find a better way to win the PBR. Even wraith night, which doesn't have a reward that's worth several thousand dollars, has tons of abuses (4 man disconnect, buying couriers to revive heroes, spawning bots etc). If you give people an opportunity to cheat the system, they will do it. Which is why I prefer letting win/loss decide everything.
                            They could introduce it with a cap on the bonus (such as +10, which means that instead of 15-25 you go up by at *most* 25-35), which would allow them to fix exploits without a serious effect on the matchmaking. They could scale it with match time by multiplying the bonus by something like game time / (average game time * 1.5), ensuring that short games are rewarded much less than long ones. They could store the bonus resulting from this feature separately in the database, which would let them track accounts with abnormally high gains compared to their number of games and reset / disable the feature for offenders. And that's just what I can think of in the time taken to write this post, without even considering specific stats you could track and how those could be abused.

                            It's true that people would try to cheat the system. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do something like this when there are a host of mitigations and protections that could be built in. If anything, I wouldn't say the issue is people gaming the system, I'd say it's Valve's apparent inability to deal properly with people gaming their systems - the comical ongoing stat-hiding, the smurf detection, and the initial mute system are three obvious cases. If Valve are prepared to make an effort, though, I honestly think something like this could be made to work, and it would bring a lot of benefits (see below).

                            If you're better than the people you're matched with, then your MMR will slowly rise.
                            While true, that doesn't mean that the matchmaking can't be improved. A system like this could:
                            • Help people rise to their true level faster by mitigating the "help i'm stuck in trench tier and my allies are keeping me there" issue
                            • Handle games in which one player (rather than the team) is primarily responsible for a win or a loss much more effectively by giving extra rewards to players who did well
                            • Encourage people to contribute more. If they gave a higher weighting to non-carry actions it would encourage team diversity and better supporting / initiating.
                            • Ensure that people have an incentive to play their best even if the game seems lost. If people know that they can mitigate or even cancel out the MMR loss simply by playing properly till the bitter end, we'd see a big decrease in the number of games ending with "gg ff i afk" or people going off to the woods to farm.
                            Last edited by DarkLite; 12-24-2013, 10:39 AM.
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                            • #15
                              This is so broke, pub normal games are better

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