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My feedback on the infinite cycle of RMM

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  • My feedback on the infinite cycle of RMM

    Me and a friend of mine are constantly training together 1x1 mid. We're both mid players and are both on a very similar skill level.

    Unfortunately I lost 6-7 out of my 10 callibration matches and I got only 4.5k MMR. He was more fortunate and got 5.6k MMR, cuz he won most of his matches. I had no doubt that sooner or later I'll be catching up with him, but I've never been in such a hell before.

    Basically what is happening is that you win a few games in a row, after which the MM decides to give you less good allies and better enemies, which forces you into an unwinnabe game, which decreases your MMR, which gives you better allies and worse enemies and so on and so on.

    I can't seem to really be able to espace from this cycle. In my opinion there are some fundamental flaws in this MM system. You shouldn't get worse allies, you should only get better enemies when your MMR increases.


    So what we did is that he took over my acc ( a legit 5.6k mmr player ) and tried to get me out of there ... he is unable ... a 5.6k MMR player is stuck at a 4.5k MMR. The system seems to do whatever is possible to keep you on a certain MMR level
    ( It tries REALLY REALLY HARD to keep me in one place )

    2 games in a row:

    1) Game one


    2) Game two


    either unwinnable or unloosable.
    Last edited by Shadowsong; 12-25-2013, 04:05 AM.

  • #2
    This is common knowledge

    Post dotabuffs too
    Valve Damage Control Department Rep #16: Unpaid Employee
    Shut up and buy a compendium
    Have a complaint? File it here

    Comment


    • #3
      Calibration matches won't make a difference of a thousand rating, even if he was 10-0 and you 0-10.

      You might be as good mechanically mid (last hitting etc), but it's apparent you're not as good playing mid as a part of a team.

      Of course it doesn't give you worse allies as you win more. Pure bullshit and misconceptions on your side. Your teammates and enemies get better, but not really noticeable unless it's a huge win-streak (10+). The only thing that doesn't change is you, and you're now dragging your team down (barely). Cute K/D stories aren't really a counter-argument to this.
      This is quite a common misconception. If you're correctly rated at say 4500, and win 10 games in a row (á 25 rating) and you're now 4750, that doesn't mean you're 4750 good. You don't get that much better in 10 games. You're maybe 4510, but it's still so much lower than the other players that you will be a detriment and lose more games than you win in the long run.

      If you can't escape from the cycle it's because you're with you peers, and you belong there.

      Then he didn't play enough games. We're probably talking 100+ required, it won't magically happen in 10 or 20 games.
      Last edited by Inritus; 12-24-2013, 04:29 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Inritus View Post
        Calibration matches won't make a difference of a thousand rating, even if he was 10-0 and you 0-10.

        You might be as good mechanically mid (last hitting etc), but it's apparent you're not as good playing mid as a part of a team.

        Of course it doesn't give you worse allies as you win more. Pure bullshit and misconceptions on your side. Your teammates and enemies get better, but not really noticeable unless it's a huge win-streak (10+). The only thing that doesn't change is you, and you're now dragging your team down (barely). Cute K/D stories aren't really a counter-argument to this.
        This is quite a common misconception. If you're correctly rated at say 4500, and win 10 games in a row (á 25 rating) and you're now 4750, that doesn't mean you're 4750 good. You don't get that much better in 10 games. You're maybe 4510, but it's still so much lower than the other players that you will be a detriment and lose more games than you win in the long run.

        If you can't escape from the cycle it's because you're with you peers, and you belong there.

        Then he didn't play enough games. We're probably talking 100+ required, it won't magically happen in 10 or 20 games.
        Naive calculation:

        A team of five 4.5k players vs. four 4.5k players and the 5.6k friend. That gives a team with 4.5k rating vs. a team with 4.72k rating: http://www.bobnewell.net/cgi/elop.pl. That's 78% chance to win using basic Elo rating. Assume that you win/lose circa 25 points per game - your friend will be gaining 0.78*25 points and losing 0.22*25 points per 'statistical' game. In other words gaining 1400 points should take him 100 games. He needs to gain 1100 points, which gives about 80 games. That's the naive approach that doesn't take into account an important factor - as he gets closer to his true rating, the probability of him winning will converge to 50%.

        100 games seems to be a good estimate. A more conservative estimate would be 150 or even 200 games, though.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Inritus View Post
          Calibration matches won't make a difference of a thousand rating, even if he was 10-0 and you 0-10.

          You might be as good mechanically mid (last hitting etc), but it's apparent you're not as good playing mid as a part of a team.

          Of course it doesn't give you worse allies as you win more. Pure bullshit and misconceptions on your side. Your teammates and enemies get better, but not really noticeable unless it's a huge win-streak (10+). The only thing that doesn't change is you, and you're now dragging your team down (barely). Cute K/D stories aren't really a counter-argument to this.
          This is quite a common misconception. If you're correctly rated at say 4500, and win 10 games in a row (á 25 rating) and you're now 4750, that doesn't mean you're 4750 good. You don't get that much better in 10 games. You're maybe 4510, but it's still so much lower than the other players that you will be a detriment and lose more games than you win in the long run.

          If you can't escape from the cycle it's because you're with you peers, and you belong there.

          Then he didn't play enough games. We're probably talking 100+ required, it won't magically happen in 10 or 20 games.
          It's the other way around. He is not overestimated with the 5.6k, I'm underestimated with the 4.5k. I can literally see how my allies and enemies are not on the same skill level as me

          The games are unwinnable. Nomatter what you do, nomatter what you try, you ain't winning the game.

          It's not like "I did this wrong and that wrong, that's why i lost the game". It's like "Lol ... even Dendi couldn't win that game in my shoes".

          The problem is fundamental - when you win a lot you get worse allies and better enemies, not better allies and better enemies. It just wants to keep you on that predetermined MMR level.
          Last edited by Shadowsong; 12-24-2013, 11:51 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Ok , why did you guys want RMM if all you do is complain ? ALL OF THIS WAS IN THE GAME BEFORE , YOU JUST COULDN'T SEE IT. YOU HAD THE SAME SHIT TEAMS BEFORE ! TRY AND GET OVER IT FFS!

            Comment


            • #7
              Yea let's try to get over the broken system instead of using the new information and actually trying to fix it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sa1nt View Post
                Ok , why did you guys want RMM if all you do is complain ? ALL OF THIS WAS IN THE GAME BEFORE , YOU JUST COULDN'T SEE IT. YOU HAD THE SAME SHIT TEAMS BEFORE ! TRY AND GET OVER IT FFS!
                We asked for ranked matches where the best player is Rank 1, the 2nd best player is Rank 2, the 3rd best player is Rank 3 and so on. We didn't ask for Valve to use their sh**t heap of a calculator to allocate random numbers to our records and enforce a 50% win/loss ratio.

                This is not a Ranking System. This is f**king Mario Kart and there are a lot of Blue Shells flying around.
                Last edited by Scorpius; 12-25-2013, 12:07 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Shadowsong View Post
                  It's the other way around. He is not overestimated with the 5.6k, I'm underestimated with the 4.5k. I can literally see how my allies and enemies are not on the same skill level as me
                  English, motherfucker, do you speak it?!

                  Where exactly did anyone say anything about your friend being overrated? We said he's better than you, not that he's overrated.

                  The games are unwinnable. Nomatter what you do, nomatter what you try, you ain't winning the game.

                  It's not like "I did this wrong and that wrong, that's why i lost the game". It's like "Lol ... even Dendi couldn't win that game in my shoes".

                  The problem is fundamental - when you win a lot you get worse allies and better enemies, not better allies and better enemies. It just wants to keep you on that predetermined MMR level.
                  You didn't answer the damn question - how many games did he play on your account? Did you use it in the mean time? Make a new account and don't use your old account, and make your friend play solo 100 ranked games on your account. Before you do that, make a screenshot of the rating and after those 100 games comeback with the screenshot of the rating he got on your account.

                  Originally posted by Scorpius View Post
                  We asked for ranked matches where the best player is Rank 1, the 2nd best player is Rank 2, the 3rd best player is Rank 3 and so on. We didn't ask for Valve to use their sh**t heap of a calculator to allocate random numbers to our records and enforce a 50% win/loss ratio.

                  This is not a Ranking System. This is f**king Mario Kart and there are a lot of Blue Shells flying around.
                  First things first - there's no forced 50% win rate.

                  Second, would an actual ladder make you happy? Would seeing that you are rank 3123456 make you happy?
                  Last edited by Lajkonik; 12-25-2013, 01:56 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Scorpius View Post
                    ... enforce a 50% win/loss ratio.
                    Sorry but nobody enforces 50% win/loss, you can easy see this by playing some imbalanced heroes like earth spirit (good impact for team), or just by viewing dotabuff of top players with 5-10+ win streaks.
                    for example this one who got 6k+ abusing es http://dotabuff.com/players/26771994...atch_type=real

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      @Lajkonik

                      On mine i played 36 games after the callibration. He has over 50.

                      On my acc he played 3-4 only. The result was basically the same.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Shadowsong View Post
                        @Lajkonik

                        On mine i played 36 games after the callibration. He has over 50.

                        On my acc he played 3-4 only. The result was basically the same.
                        I told you, link us to those accounts, make a new account and make your friend play 100 games (ranked, solo) on your old account - then come back.

                        Also, why do you even mention the 'calibration'? As has been explained - those are not placement matches - your rating baseline comes from your 'unranked' games.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Dude he can't steamroll with 5.6k MMR on a 4.5k MMR account ... thats a 1.1k MMR difference !
                          .... and after the unwinnable games i'm in a games like these ...

                          which is basically 1x5 win.

                          Either unwinnable games or games in which i'm able to with 1x5.

                          Last edited by Shadowsong; 12-25-2013, 03:09 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scorpius View Post
                            We asked for ranked matches where the best player is Rank 1, the 2nd best player is Rank 2, the 3rd best player is Rank 3 and so on. We didn't ask for Valve to use their sh**t heap of a calculator to allocate random numbers to our records and enforce a 50% win/loss ratio.

                            This is not a Ranking System. This is f**king Mario Kart and there are a lot of Blue Shells flying around.
                            Pretty much... sadly. I'm daily playing with players feeding, leaving, doing solo from beginning to the end of the match (and of course they get ganked by 2-3 heroes), not helping, not picking support (yes I don't really play support usually, but in ranking, somehow I'm the single support 80% of the time...), not buying wards, not dewarding, not warding neutral camps, and so on ... I might not have the best APM, nor the best skill, but fuck me then why each time I'm the only one pining like hell for them to back because I know the train is coming to wreck them, and they usually never back and just die like tards (they also don't call miss ). The players I play with have no vision, no anticipation, they pick their hero randomly, they don't do combination, nothing of that. And when you try to, it's even worst as most of them only know how to play maybe 10-20 heroes well (I've often someone saying "I can play X and X, the rest not really" < Dafuk you doing in captain draft or captain mode dude !).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Shadowsong View Post
                              Dude he can't steamroll with 5.6k MMR on a 4.5k MMR account ... thats a 1.1k MMR difference !
                              .... and after the unwinnable games i'm in a games like these ...

                              which is basically 1x5 win.

                              Either unwinnable games or games in which i'm able to with 1x5.

                              Either you guys do what I've just said or you stop whining.

                              There are people boosting Elo in LoL - you know what happens to the boosted accounts? They go back to their previous ratings. Valve boosted the rating of a forum whiner before - he lost most of his games until he was back at his former rating.

                              Believe it or not, your friend is that much better than you are at winning.

                              EDIT: You're that damn Witch Doctor whiner. No wonder you complain about Elo hell. Haha.
                              Another account by permanently banned Vasilev.

                              You've been told before that cherry-picking games is not going to prove your point:

                              http://dotabuff.com/matches/438918216
                              http://dotabuff.com/matches/438701347
                              Last edited by Lajkonik; 12-25-2013, 03:21 AM.

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