Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules

  • No flaming or derogatory remarks, directly or through insinuation.
  • No discussion, sharing or referencing illegal software such as hacks, keygen, cracks and pirated software.
  • No offensive contents, including but not limited to, racism, gore or pornography.
  • No excessive spam/meme, i.e. copious one liners in a short period of time, typing with all caps or posting meme responses (text/image).
  • No trolling, including but not limited to, flame incitation, user provocation or false information distribution.
  • No link spamming or signature advertisements for content not specific to Dota 2.
  • No Dota 2 key requests, sell, trade etc.
  • You may not create multiple accounts for any purpose, including ban evasion, unless expressly permitted by a moderator.

  • Please search before posting. One thread per issue. Do not create another thread if there is an existing one already.
  • Before posting anything, make sure you check out all sticky threads (e.g., this). Do not create new threads about closed ones.
  • It is extremely important that you post in correct forum section.

  • Balance discussion only in Misc.
  • All art related (such as hero model) feedbacks go to Art Feedback Forum.
  • All matchmaking feedback should go here: Matchmaking Feedback
  • All report/low priority issues should go here: Commend/Report/Ban Feedback
  • No specific workshop item feedback. These should go to workshop page of that item.
  • When posting in non-bugs section (such as this), use [Bugs], [Discussion] or [Suggestion] prefix in your thread name.



In case you object some action by a moderator, please contact him directly through PM and explain your concerns politely. If you are still unable to resolve the issue, contact an administrator. Do not drag these issues in public.



All rules are meant to augment common sense, please use them when not conflicted with aforementioned policies.
See more
See less

You did it ! Good job !

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by Jan2011 View Post
    you fragment the already fragmented player poll by a factor of at least 2. Lets just make a math example:

    400k people are online on 1 server (just to make it simple)
    You 1st fragment it by normal vs ranked play (200k vs 200k)
    You now have 3 mods what means you fragment the poll by a factor of 3 (~66,67k per mode)
    And you still havent addressed language yet
    Then the first mistake Valve made was separating Ranked/Non-ranked pool. They should have kept it how it was (one pool) but actually match players to players with similar Wins/Losses. That's what they did for Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne (RTS) and it worked fine for years. The only reason search times got longer in that game is when people stopped playing it after about 8 years and the playerbase simply shrank.
    Last edited by Commander_John_Crichton; 03-10-2014, 04:27 PM.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by FelicesBladewing View Post
      so if they (the latinos) tend to be that bad without trolling why the hell does they even have the same MMR than someone who is like you said to yourself "tryharding" i said in my RMM review (you are invited to read it in my sig. ) that this is to random and as i feels in your post like i am right.
      regardless language issues which tbh is really a thing they need to fix asap; if they have the same ambition to win and on average the same skillevel it should be also fixing the problem right?

      because than the only difference between being with a stack or with other solos is again cooperation and coordination which were the main arguements in my first post.

      And lets hope Valve will find a way to please us without outcasting any group or kind of player
      Average skill level between South America players and any other region of the world is much lower? South America isn't mixed with different places in Europe with a really high skill level to make a contrast of players of all levels, just as there are russians in Eu's servers, there's also people from different countries that are better players, look at Na'Vi and [A]lliance, both being from Eu, swedes and ukrainians. What does SA have to contrast their low skill level players with? Their peruvian tournament leagues? I've pubbed in many different SA servers for years, and let me tell you, the skill level has always been lower than when I pubbed somewhere else (US), even in Garena you'd get a lower average skill level when playing in the SA rooms compared to the NA ones

      That I tryhard in RMM doesn't mean that I'm made of stone or have balls of steel. I've played to have fun for 5-6 years, in the "I don't mind losing as long as I keep improving my own skill level" sense, so I'd not deal with kiddies and their mood swings, I'd just ignore them, in RMM you better try to calm them down and fix the issues these moodie faggots can create within the team, unless you don't mind losing thanks to it. I obviously get bored after a while of it, so I don't do 10 matches in a single day of purely solo queueing ranked, instead I go play something else that actually brings me some fun, or I just play on a smurf because I get to have fun without wanting to care about my team's mood

      And you also seem to believe there are more english speaking players than there are latinos, let me tell you, sorry, but you're really wrong; I'll never forget how one of my calibration matches for solo RMM (I believe it was the first one, too), I was matchmade into 4 players from 4 different south american countries (They weren't in a stack), none of them speaking english, we obviously lost. The general sense and feeling of RMM isn't "gauging skill" but instead "gauging how good you are at carrying shitters and foreigners", hence the logical base for it is that, just as you get unwinnable matches thanks to shitters, so does everybody else, and that's how you climb, you have to win matches as long as they aren't the % of unwinnable ones, like, everybody queueing to X server has a 30% rate of unwinnable matches, then depending on how good they are, they will solo carry the other 70% of the matches that weren't made to be unwinnable. That's what Solo RMM is, and that's why, depending on which server you queue for, it's harder and slower to climb it up

      I do admit that I'd climb much faster if I played more often but I just can't be bothered to

      Originally posted by jt_money View Post
      @Infer- I used to play Solo Q on US east now and then during late hours here in europe, in order to find games faster. But after dealing with several 3-4 man stacks from latin america, Im never going back to us east again. Except with a full 5-man stack, thats the only way. Id rather play on SEA servers with 400 ping than Solo Q on USE. If there are ppl who think its bad with russians on euro servers, you guys have absolutely no idea. I guess europeans can only be happy that Peruvians have unplayable ping to our servers.
      If you ever feel like it, you'd make a smurf and queue for it, it's loads of fun, it's like showing a kid a magic trick

      Originally posted by jt_money View Post
      I dont see why they needed to separate the ranked mode, when your normal modes also have the hidden RMM. Imo they shoulda kept solo Q and made the normal mode "ranked". After all- the only thing different from ranked is that it has less game modes and it shows you the RMM number that is just hidden for the normal mode.

      Valve should just do "ladder resets" like it used to be in WC3 every now and then. Like do calibration games every year or 1.5 years. It would give ppl motivation to keep improving untill the next calibration matches take place.

      Valve you listened to us with removing 4-man stacks and it was a good thing. Now make the normal mode "ranked" and bring back solo Q again, since the player pool will be one huge player pool again. Theres not much difference in match quality if I play ranked or unranked, so it suggests that the MM algorithm is the same basically. So why have 2 separate modes?

      #makenormalmoderanked #bringbacksoloq
      Originally posted by jt_money View Post
      Oh yeah, thats the correct strain of thought. But honestly though- how many ppl switch to non-ranked mode to try a new hero? The reality is- 90% dont care. They do it in ranked anyways. Other than that- you have bot games, try new heroes in bot games. Personally I load up a custom game and mess around with new heroes, learn the mechanics of the spells etc. Its way easier because you can reset spell cooldown if you enable cheatmode.

      Valve- please melt the non-ranked AP with ranked AP and basically all the 3-4 modes that exist in the RMM mode. The rest of the modes like Random Draft, Ability Draft etc. can stay non-ranked.

      But MELT the AP, CM etc. together, make it all ranked. If ppl want to try new heroes or learn heroes they can play bot matches or Random Draft, limited draft etc. (which can stay non-ranked modes)

      If you do that, the MM quality will improve. So yes that would mean that at first every new player could join ranked mode. But with the current smurf detection system a players skill roughly gets determined after about 3 games. So it wouldnt be as bad. From what we know the first 10 normal games someone plays on a new account are calibrating games as well, same as when you enter ranked mode with level 13. Then, once ppl have played like 200 normal games you could initiate the calibration games again and reposition that player and show his RMM starting from 200 games played.


      Now we have AP ranked and AP non ranked, same for CM... we have AP in lpq... it splits the player pool drastically...

      Find a way to melt AP/CM etc. to ranked only. It would benefit everyone in the long run. Im also very confident if you melt All Pick together and block 4-man stacking in ranked, that the quality of matches will improve drastically and will come close to Solo Q.

      Honestly if they do what I suggested I think a true Solo Q might become obsolete, even though its still the best thing for matchmaking having a true Solo Q.
      This would only work if the RMM system worked properly, but it does not, it doesn't let people move quickly depending on how good or bad they are. If it was good, then you'd get matches where you can win more rating and lose more rating, I'd not win 25 rating after carrying my teammates who could have 1k-1.5k less rating than I do, against people that have 1k-1.5k rating more than I do and are also in a stack. If matchmaking worked like this:

      Giving each team an average rating, and then, the team with a lower average rating, should win more points or lose less points, when winning against a team with a higher average rating. The matchmaking system would randomly and from time to time, just pull people into these matches where they have a lower average skill level (Like, if they're winning too often, matchmaking gives them a test to see if they should climb faster. And if they're losing too often, then matchmaking gives them a test to see if they should sink faster too); and on top of doing it based off the winrate of a player, it should also introduce a voting system for players to be allowed 3 options (At the end of the match) for each of their teammates, this player should go up in rating because he's more skilled, should stay here, or should go down in rating because he's lacking in skill, that way good support play gets rewarded by climbing faster, because a good support is easier rewarded by his teammates rather than a good mid, because getting a good mid is much easier than getting a good support in a pub match, you could say any scrub can win mid, as long as the enemy mid is more of a scrub, yet it takes a really skilled support to solo win a match, because he doesn't have to rely on the enemy being bad, he has to rely on his team being good, the worse his team is, the harder the game is for the support, this way, even players that lost the game can be rewarded for good skill

      "This system will be abused by players because they dislike somebody" So we also get a system that monitors pubs and makes people be kind to each other? That means the shitty pubbie playing a support will tend to buy wards and use a salve on me when I need it, or sacrifice so I can get away when I'm playing a hard carry, on top of doing the hard support job, just because he wants me to vote him to go upwards in the matchmaking, so that he gets matched against better players and climbs faster? Fucking yes, the system is even better than it was designed to be then. And now people that flame their teammates and are total cunts will ALSO get voted down to play against scrubs and have a chance at sinking in rating? How is this bad? "But I just wanted to help them by giving them some orders and they replied with fuck you" then just show that you're a better player and hope that they either vote you up, or vote you to stay, rather than bother arguing with a shitter about why vlad's is a bad item to rush on PL or how PL shouldn't go mid
      Last edited by Infer; 03-10-2014, 04:53 PM.

      Comment


      • #78
        well there seem to be other issues right now. To be precise I lost 2-3 games where the enemy team had 2+2+1 where on my team we had 2+1+1+1 basically only 1 stack of 2 players and 3 randoms while the enemy team had 2x2 premade stacks and 1 random.

        It seems like 8 out of 10 times the communication will be better in stacks and even drafting decisions. So now we dont have the full 4-stacks anymore, but in general it looks like the team with more stacks inside of it usually still wins. Like in my example above- 2x2 stacks + 1 random vs 2-stack and 3 randoms.

        To be honest, since they removed 4-stacks we should be able to get true solo Q back. I cant stress this enough that real balanced games are only truly possible with real solo q. There is still a problem right now of feeding 2-stacks. They usually pick offlane and a combination with axe and dive enemy towers at 2nd minute or so and rambo till the end. In true solo Q you would maximum have 1 feeding guy, if at all.

        Stacks in ranked is what's destroying this game. Valve will realize one day that the ammount of Solo Q players is way higher than stacked players. The sad and at the same time good thing is that Valve realized it during the beta and early release of the game, that its nowhere near appropriate to match solo players with stacks so they introduced the true Solo Q mode. But seeing that it affected search times for stacks, they decided to remove it in favour of shorter search times. But the truth is- 80% of ppl would wait 10 minutes to have a great 35+ minute game. Its less time wasted if you wait 3 minutes then get totally onesided games and if youre lucky your 3rd game might be actually a close one. So in total there is more time wasted than if you just wait 10 mins and find a balanced game.

        I mean you dont need to be a scientist to realize that like 80% of the Toxicity in this game is caused by unbalanced matchmaking. I mean im not the guy to jump on ppl for small mistakes. But when you see the teammates sometimes, their item builds and the lack of any skill whatsoever, it feels like Valve is spitting in our face, and thats why many ppl get toxic. I couldnt care less when a guy was not careful enough and fed a kill or two. BUt when you see them do stupid crap over and over again and see how far behind their skill is compared to the majority of the players in the match, it annoys the crap out of most ppl. If Valve kept everyone in their approximate skill range, there would be like 70% less toxicity in the game, GUARANTEED.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Noya View Post
          it's really so hard to understand that if they do that, any 2 man party could only be matched with 3 man parties, which means diving the playerbase by like 2/3rds or even more for party MMR, meaning terrible ranked matching/skill disparity just to get "muh solo matchmakin!" matches will be also be of a lower quality/higher queue times because of the aforementioned playerbase split?

          People just want to blame the loss on the fact that the enemy team had a 3 stack and you couldn't play as a team, I get it, but use your brain before posting.
          The player base was divided between the no parties allowed and regular matchmaking. Solo players were playing in both arenas. Keeping solo players to only one arena and dividing the rankings between solo and party which they have already done half of this is the right thing to do. The no parties allowed was solo matchmaking gone wrong. They can do it right if they try again.
          Originally posted by Commander_John_Crichton View Post
          Then the first mistake Valve made was separating Ranked/Non-ranked pool. They should have kept it how it was (one pool) but actually match players to players with similar Wins/Losses. That's what they did for Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne (RTS) and it worked fine for years. The only reason search times got longer in that game is when people stopped playing it after about 8 years and the playerbase simply shrank.
          They can still remove AP(or just replace AP in ranked with a more appropriate mode that doesn't allow randoms), CM, and CD as options for non-ranked games.
          Last edited by hoveringmover; 03-12-2014, 11:27 PM.
          I will mercilessly add to my ignore list anyone that makes an incredibly annoying signature.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by hoveringmover View Post
            The player base was divided between the no parties allowed and regular matchmaking. Solo players were playing in both arenas. Keeping solo players to only one arena and dividing the rankings between solo and party which they have already done half of this is the right thing to do. The no parties allowed was solo matchmaking gone wrong. They can do it right if they try again.They can still remove AP(or just replace AP in ranked with a more appropriate mode that doesn't allow randoms), CM, and CD as options for non-ranked games.
            I really need links with people constantly complaining abut long queue times .

            Comment


            • #81
              I love how valve does this, but ignores the numerous other simpler solutions to fixing matchmaking for no discernible reason.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by spudlyff8fan View Post
                no discernible reason.
                It's not discernible for you because you are blind to evident issues.

                One of the main reasons for Valve to allow ranked match setups like 2+2+1 vs 3+2 or 3+1+1 vs 5, is that they don’t want parties to have higher queue times and greater skill disparity in their matches, at the cost of a less friendly setup for the solos.

                If two 5k ranked players decide to play a ranked match together, there’s just simply not enough equally skilled 3 man parties searching for a match, so there needs to match with 2 man and a solo, or 3 single players. If you remove those solo players from the available ranked matchmaking queue, those parties would have to wait And be matched with/against lesser/higher skilled groups.

                There's the reason why they said the removal of 4 man parties from RMM is part of an experiment to measure its impact on game quality.
                ModDota | My GitHub Profile | My Project's Page

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Sa1nt View Post
                  I really need links with people constantly complaining abut long queue times .
                  I wasn't concerned about that in particular, I was more worried about differences in rankings due to being on 'a different server' by choice. That's why I think they should remove CD, CM, and possibly AP(it would arguably be better to make a new version of AP for ranked and remove the current AP from ranked, but even if not it's still a good idea to change AP) from non-ranked.
                  Originally posted by Noya View Post
                  It's not discernible for you because you are blind to evident issues.

                  One of the main reasons for Valve to allow ranked match setups like 2+2+1 vs 3+2 or 3+1+1 vs 5, is that they don’t want parties to have higher queue times and greater skill disparity in their matches, at the cost of a less friendly setup for the solos.

                  If two 5k ranked players decide to play a ranked match together, there’s just simply not enough equally skilled 3 man parties searching for a match, so there needs to match with 2 man and a solo, or 3 single players. If you remove those solo players from the available ranked matchmaking queue, those parties would have to wait And be matched with/against lesser/higher skilled groups.

                  There's the reason why they said the removal of 4 man parties from RMM is part of an experiment to measure its impact on game quality.
                  I don't want to risk getting matched with 1000 ranking players just because I might get to play with 5000 ranking players if I'm playing by myself. If I want to get funky I'll team up with 1 or 2 or even 4 others. Honestly, playing as 2 or 3 is dangerous and it should not be made safer artificially by devastating the experiences of solo players. If the search times do get bad due to players having too high or too low of a rank then the players can go look for friends through forums and chat rooms and get a full party. Also, I don't care for the ranking system as it is anyway. Using the proper party grouping system is more important than anything else. I would rather play as a party of 3 around my ranking with another party of 2 around 5000 against a party of 3 around 5000 and a party of 2 around 3000 than to deal with solo players. That way I actually know who I'm dealing with a little better. It's better to have a predictable matchmaking system at the moment so we can play our games properly. The way it is now, Valve are still trying to keep secret the party compositions until the end of the game. That's crazy.

                  I don't have a problem with Valve making uneven matches at all. I'm all for them matching 5 players ranked ~3000 against 5 players ranked ~5000 as long as the ranking is adjusted appropriately at the end of the game. No +/- ~25 nonsense, please.

                  If you're playing in a party, the matchmaking should be more loose as to what is an acceptable match as far as rankings go, but not as far as party compositions go. Right now the only reason we don't want the matchmaking more loose in regards to rankings for parties is for the sake of solo players. Kick solo players out of party matchmaking completely this time and we won't have this problem. Having such tight search parameters is inappropriate, as much as allowing silly party compositions in teams is inappropriate. 2 parties with no solos per team for one game, 1 party with no solos per team for another game, and no parties in either team for a third game, and you have a simple and effective matchmaking that actually starts to work properly because it is actually resembling something that is fair!

                  If Valve tackles this problem then they can move on to fixing the ridiculously broken scoring system. Right now there are too many variables for them to consider, it boggles my mind they thought this wouldn't be broken to the core this way.
                  Last edited by hoveringmover; 03-13-2014, 12:10 PM.
                  I will mercilessly add to my ignore list anyone that makes an incredibly annoying signature.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Amazing change. After a night of queueing as a 3 man we found out we get 3+1+1 vs a 5 man stack every single time. Great improvement.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Noya View Post
                      It's not discernible for you because you are blind to evident issues.

                      One of the main reasons for Valve to allow ranked match setups like 2+2+1 vs 3+2 or 3+1+1 vs 5, is that they don’t want parties to have higher queue times and greater skill disparity in their matches, at the cost of a less friendly setup for the solos.

                      If two 5k ranked players decide to play a ranked match together, there’s just simply not enough equally skilled 3 man parties searching for a match, so there needs to match with 2 man and a solo, or 3 single players. If you remove those solo players from the available ranked matchmaking queue, those parties would have to wait And be matched with/against lesser/higher skilled groups.

                      There's the reason why they said the removal of 4 man parties from RMM is part of an experiment to measure its impact on game quality.
                      Always amazing to read the sort of mental gymnastics fanboys will do to avoid the truth.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X